Precautionary off-field landing

WannFly said:
  • land on the field below him - deal with the farmer later OR land on a county road and deal with the rest later
  • there are some private grass strips out there, but they are covered in mud/snow
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County roads are a bad idea in general. Lots of stuff to hit.
If the private strips are mud/snow then so will the farm field. No advantage to the field.
For me, clouds are out on account of what I ain't got not gyros at all.
1) Slow down.
2) Head south / westish to hit the RR tracks - follow south then east to Peterson airport (at the intersection of the tracks / road.
3) If you get to the rail road crossing, you went too far - back track just a bit staying north of the tracks to avoid the towers.

Or, follow the powerline east to the tracks, south to Arthur.

Towers are not built in the middle of roads / railroads.

Airports are built next to roads.

Easy peasy.
 
Clark1961 said:
What about them? They are charted and elevation is marked. Slow down to approach speed in low visibility conditions.
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that's a great point, slow down, more time to think and react
 
F01LA said:
Normally I might agree. What made me hit "eject" on this one was the ceilings still lowering, and near-1-mile visibility.
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I have been in about 1-2 miles vis once with a instructor onboard (with SVFR in Delta), for a low time pilot, no thanks, I will avoid it as much as I can
 
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WannFly said:
Accident Case Study: VFR into IMC - Commercial pilot, >1000 hr


Accident Case Study: Emergency Management - Private and Instrument, about 1000 hrs total time


yeah we can all say after watching the analysis what went wrong, and how we will never get into such situations, but the fact of the matter is, we might find ourselves in a situation like this.
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Sure, you might find yourself in a situation like that but I can’t help you if you do. If one is ignoring the warnings of ATC and can’t judge deteriorating conditions, then there’s really no hope for a pilot like that. There’s also not a one size fits all approach of when to abort a flight and where to abort to. As Zeldman and I commented before, you get good at weather predicting and diverting through experience. You can only gain that experience from being up against the weather wall many times over and finding a solution out. That solution usually has multiple options.

I’ve taught several Aircrew Coordination Training classes in the Army on IIMC & CFIT. There’s always a trail of mistakes in the accidents. First is, a lot of times they received a weather brief showing either observed or forecasted weather conditions below their required mins but yet still launched. Second, they had either self induced or a perceived chain of command pressure to be somewhere at a certain time. Generally it’s a big mission, VIPs, or just plain get home itis after a field excersize. Finally, and most importantly, they couldn’t adapt to the deteriorating weather conditions after departure. This either results in spatial D from IIMC, or plowing into terrain / wires because of unfamiliarity in their present location.

The key in all of this is when to tap out and call it a day. Ive flown with pilots who don’t have a lick of SA when it comes to identifying changing weather conditions. Some is just not knowing what 1 mile vis looks like, some, I believe just can’t comprehend what’s going on. I’ve had pilots want to fly VFR over the top without any clue in destination weather. Pilots who encounter decreasing vis and don’t have the presence of mind to decrease their airspeed to allow for more maneuvering/ increased safety buffer. Personally seen a helicopter fly right into the middle of a very visible thunderstorm in Afghanistan one night. In my opinion, these pilots aren’t telling themselves that they’ll get through these conditions, they’re operating on nothing more than ignorance and hope. A hope with no backup plan. Don’t put yourself in that situation.
 
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WannFly said:
I have been in about 1-2 miles vis once with a instructor onboard (with SVFR in Delta), for a low time pilot, no thanks, I will avoid it as much as I can
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Absolutely. It's spooky as hell, it will scare the crap out of you and make you swear to never, ever get into that situation again. Still not justification (IMHO) to put down in a muddy field, when there is a way home - and that way home will have a plentiful supply of no-less-crappy fields in which to land if you HAVE to.
 
DaleB said:
I'd land in the field as a last resort only. If there's any way to make it to a real runway (including, but not limited to, scud running or calling Approach/Tower for confession and vectors) I'm taking it. The off-airport landing is a virtual guarantee of airplane disassembly, either intentional (for transport) or upon impact unless you can find an empty chunk of road, and those are notoriously bad about having power and phone lines crossing in inconvenient places.

700' ceiling? If you know where the big towers are and can stay half a mile or more away from them, 690 AGL works fine. It looks like everything between you and Casselton is below 400'. I'd tuck tail and hot-foot south to 5N8, there to con template my folly and vow never to be so dumb again.
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How does the plane know if it's a "real runway"?

Also what makes it "real"?


A "off Airport" landing means you need to take your airplane apart, not really lol






Again if the wheels go round and it doesn't hit anything, the airplane doesn't know the difference.

TONS of backcountry folks commonly land off Airport with zero issue




455 Bravo Uniform said:
Screw the plane, save your skin. Touchdown in a field, flip it, rip the wings off. Second guess yourself later, cuz at least you’re still alive. I’ll take the surer thing every time (or at least I think I would).
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Save the plane, save your skin, same thing.

It's like when you get a box in the mail, normally the better condition the box is in the better condition the contents end up in.
 
I have a friend that got lost on his cross country in a J3. All he had was a compass and a map. This was in flat Illinois. So he sees a farmer on his tractor in a field and he lands in the field to get directions. So the farmer comes over and asks him what is wrong. Well, hes embarrassed and looks down at his shoes, and says "If a guy were to buy a pair of shoes around here, where would he go?". Farmer gets it and tells him where the nearest airport is. He says thanks and off he goes. Better than running out of fuel I guess. True story.
 
James331 said:
How does the plane know if it's a "real runway"?

Also what makes it "real"?


A "off Airport" landing means you need to take your airplane apart, not really lol
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OK, I will stipulate that if you're flying an airplane DESIGNED to land in soft, muddy fields and take off again, equipped with giant-ass bush wheels, you'll probably be fine. Ditto for a highway with little or no traffic when you can KNOW there aren't any wires across it.

Try that trick with 5.00 x 5s and wheel pants in a plowed farm field during rainy weather and let me know how that works out for you.
 
coloradobluesky said:
I have a friend that got lost on his cross country in a J3. All he had was a compass and a map. This was in flat Illinois. So he sees a farmer on his tractor in a field and he lands in the field to get directions. So the farmer comes over and asks him what is wrong. Well, hes embarrassed and looks down at his shoes, and says "If a guy were to buy a pair of shoes around here, where would he go?". Farmer gets it and tells him where the nearest airport is. He says thanks and off he goes. Better than running out of fuel I guess. True story.
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LOL. During private training I told my instructor that if I got lost on a cross-country I'd just land somewheres and ask someone 'bout which way a feller aught to head if he wuz goin' to Denver. Instructor was not even mildly amused...
 
Clark1961 said:
LOL. During private training I told my instructor that if I got lost on a cross-country I'd just land somewheres and ask someone 'bout which way a feller aught to head if he wuz goin' to Denver. Instructor was not even mildly amused...
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Water towers usually have the name of the town painted in letters big enough that you don't have to land.

:)
 
DaleB said:
Water towers usually have the name of the town painted in letters big enough that you don't have to land.

:)
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That'd just be a hint 'bout where I wuz, not which way to go...
 
Clark1961 said:
That'd just be a hint 'bout where I wuz, not which way to go...
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After the water tower inspection, I'd suggest UP.

Then lookit the chart and that compass thingy to figger out where to go from there.
 
DaleB said:
After the water tower inspection, I'd suggest UP.

Then lookit the chart and that compass thingy to figger out where to go from there.
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That all sounds complicated.

Better to land and ask for directions real nice like so's I can also refill the cooler.
 
Clark1961 said:
That all sounds complicated.

Better to land and ask for directions real nice like so's I can also refill the cooler.
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Real men never ask for directions


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk
 
WannFly said:
ok so far the generic consensus is, trust instruments and go for it. why would you not choose option 3 (off field)? I guess that's the clarifying question here and that's what the author of those books mentioned as well. people will try to fly on instruments without training and kill themselves (with multiple supporting accident case studies) rather than land on a road / field and face the inconvenience.
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I disagree with the "generic" answer...a private pilot with three hours of instrument training is generally more lucky than good when he survives IMC. If the weather is coming down, are you prepared to fly some kind of approach that you've never practiced down to 300 feet? As an instrument rated and proficient pilot, I've thought about pulling up and claiming stupidity a few times, but even the one time when the airplane was IFR equipped, staying below the clouds was a better option. Generally when one is below the clouds rather than in them, there's a very good reason for not going into them.

First choice for me is to continue to an airport below the clouds.

Second choice is landing off airport...if the fields are too muddy, I'll use a road. I've landed on them plenty of times, and highlines don't seem to me to be nearly as bad as most people make them out. Most pilots would probably auger in before they found a private airstrip that's on the chart but they've never seen...try finding some of those suckers. They're stealthy.

As an instrument rated and current pilot, my last choice would be to pull up into the clouds and figure it out from there. If a pilot is not instrument rated, I would recommend the hands-off technique here:
let the airplane stability do the work. Even if you're instrument rated, but not equipped, that would be a good route to go...but practice it first.
 
DaleB said:
OK, I will stipulate that if you're flying an airplane DESIGNED to land in soft, muddy fields and take off again, equipped with giant-ass bush wheels, you'll probably be fine. Ditto for a highway with little or no traffic when you can KNOW there aren't any wires across it.

Try that trick with 5.00 x 5s and wheel pants in a plowed farm field during rainy weather and let me know how that works out for you.
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Here's a 172



Even with 2" solid rubber wheels with pants, still much safer than a VFR pilot going IMC.


The biggest factor for most of the backcountry flying isn't the gear, it's the pilot, there are people flying to some pretty remote very unimproved strips with mooneys.
 
James331 said:
Even with 2" solid rubber wheels with pants, still much safer than a VFR pilot going IMC.
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Who said anything about flying into IMC??? I know for sure I never did. Fly the bloody thing in the direction of the available airport. If the weather continues to deteriorate to the point where you have to land short, you will have numerous opportunities to land in fields, roads, wherever. It's not like he's in a mountain pass in heavy sleet. It's North flippin' Dakota. No reason to put it down in a field 20 miles away just because you've blundered into some crappy marginal VMC.
 
I can see an autopilot adding the potential of a lot of stupid to the original scenario. Glad you stayed in the pattern.
 
DaleB said:
Who said anything about flying into IMC??? I know for sure I never did. Fly the bloody thing in the direction of the available airport. If the weather continues to deteriorate to the point where you have to land short, you will have numerous opportunities to land in fields, roads, wherever. It's not like he's in a mountain pass in heavy sleet. It's North flippin' Dakota. No reason to put it down in a field 20 miles away just because you've blundered into some crappy marginal VMC.
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From my perspective, there are countless tragic accidents where the pilot's attitude was apparently something like, "I'll keep going.. If it gets worse I can always set it down somewhere." I don't know exactly what happens in those cases, but I'd rather not find out myself. That makes me very wary, and inclined to pick the field/road.

I'd call 5 miles/1000 ft "marginal VMC." 1-2 miles/800 feet is "land ASAP", for me at least.
 
Clark1961 said:
LOL. During private training I told my instructor that if I got lost on a cross-country I'd just land somewheres and ask someone 'bout which way a feller aught to head if he wuz goin' to Denver. Instructor was not even mildly amused...
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Don't know why. My first student did exactly that. Got lost on the return leg, saw an airport and landed there. One hangar and a phone booth, no one around. He calls the operator and asks where is he? Operator tells him, calls me, and we fly down so I could fly back with him as it would have been dark.
 
DaleB said:
Water towers usually have the name of the town painted in letters big enough that you don't have to land.

:)
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Got lost in N. Ga. right after I got my PPC. Couldn't find my planned XC fuel stop, saw a small town, flew down to read water tower. No name, nothing, on the tower. :(
 
DaleB said:
Who said anything about flying into IMC??? I know for sure I never did. Fly the bloody thing in the direction of the available airport. If the weather continues to deteriorate to the point where you have to land short, you will have numerous opportunities to land in fields, roads, wherever. It's not like he's in a mountain pass in heavy sleet. It's North flippin' Dakota. No reason to put it down in a field 20 miles away just because you've blundered into some crappy marginal VMC.
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The OP did and he mentioned that mean girl named Hope, more than once, lol.

2. call up the towered field, fess up, use E word, ask for vectors to ensure obstacle clearance - try to fly that vector on instrument, in the cloud and HOPE he doesn't loose control.
 
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DaleB said:
Who said anything about flying into IMC??? I know for sure I never did. Fly the bloody thing in the direction of the available airport. If the weather continues to deteriorate to the point where you have to land short, you will have numerous opportunities to land in fields, roads, wherever. It's not like he's in a mountain pass in heavy sleet. It's North flippin' Dakota. No reason to put it down in a field 20 miles away just because you've blundered into some crappy marginal VMC.
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The OP.

Flying the thing towards a airport in detoriating conditions is how you end up in inadvertent IMC.

If you are looking or even thinking about landing due to weather, you probably should have already done it, second guessing and pressing on is exactly how people get in REALLY bad situations, especially since landing on a road or field or something and waiting out the weather is the lest dangerous option and often a non event.
 
James331 said:
The biggest factor for most of the backcountry flying isn't the gear, it's the pilot, there are people flying to some pretty remote very unimproved strips with mooneys.
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I've seen an Archer that got so loaded up with ice that when the pilot saw a break in the clouds during the procedure turn he decided he was better off on the ground than going back into the clouds. He landed in a field that was so muddy most people would guarantee he'd flip over. He sunk in up to the belly of the airplane. No damage, but I have no idea how they got the airplane out. I honestly don't know how they walked to the road, the mud was so deep.
 
F01LA said:
From my perspective, there are countless tragic accidents where the pilot's attitude was apparently something like, "I'll keep going.. If it gets worse I can always set it down somewhere." I don't know exactly what happens in those cases, but I'd rather not find out myself. That makes me very wary, and inclined to pick the field/road.

I'd call 5 miles/1000 ft "marginal VMC." 1-2 miles/800 feet is "land ASAP", for me at least.
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"I'll keep going. If it gets worse I can always..." is pilot code for "I'm not actually going to make a decision." You need a limit..."if I get down to x altitude or y visibility, I'm landing."

In the words of Getty Lee..."If you choose not to decide, you still have made a choice." Unfortunately that's often a fatal choice in aviation.
 
I have a LOT of experience in Alaska flying in less than marginal VFR weather. I have lost very experienced bush flying friends that were IR commercial or ATP that made one little mistake in flying VFR in less than marginal conditions, and flew into trees, or a mountain, or into the ground. One friend hit the mountain so hard that there were internal engine parts that were not found.

 
WannFly said:
Here is the hypothetical situation:
  • A low time VFR Pilot with NO instrument training beyond what's done in PPL - ...- visibility is now down to 2 miles (best guess), there is some mist and rain which makes the visibility look more like 1 mile or less, ceiling is suddenly down to 800 feet or less and is coming down.
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  • Railroad tracks.

    They are distinctive, continuous, and few in number. Very good for navigation. And your present position is near one. Follow it southeast toward the West Fargo airport.

    The hazards are 1200’ towers located two miles south of the track, near Amenia, and some towers, 100’ to 200’, located within a mile of the rails in the town of West Fargo. If you stay exactly above the track, not veering a quarter-mile off, you will avoid the towers and guy wires with reasonable margin.

    Fly at least 300’ AGL if you can, lower if you must.
 
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James331 said:
How does the plane know if it's a "real runway"?

Also what makes it "real"?


A "off Airport" landing means you need to take your airplane apart, not really lol






Again if the wheels go round and it doesn't hit anything, the airplane doesn't know the difference.

TONS of backcountry folks commonly land off Airport with zero issue






Save the plane, save your skin, same thing.

It's like when you get a box in the mail, normally the better condition the box is in the better condition the contents end up in.
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True, up to a point. Sacrificing wings in exchange for deceleration is an option.

I forget which part of the AFH it is, but it’s towards the back and they have some concepts that are worth refreshing from time to time. How to sacrifice the structure for skin.
 
Zeldman said:
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That 178 second thing is total ********.

Back in the '50s the took a bunch of pilots who had never ever flown on instruments, put them in a Bo (instead of a Cub that they were used to), covered the DG, horizon, and rate of climb, did the yellow tint/blue goggle thing and said "your airplane".
 
redtail said:
The OP did and he mentioned that mean girl named Hope, more than once, lol.

2. call up the towered field, fess up, use E word, ask for vectors to ensure obstacle clearance - try to fly that vector on instrument, in the cloud and HOPE he doesn't loose control.
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Yes, and that would be immeasurably stupid. However, in the continuing exchange after my response, never once did I even suggest continuing if conditions deteriorated further. I simply suggested that rather than putting it down in a field right there, perhaps our hapless pilot could turn toward the most reasonable airport and try to make that. It's not terribly far. There are no obstacles in his path, as long as he stays above 400 AGL... and if he's below 400 AGL he should already be finishing up his emergency landing checklist. Conditions suck but he's not screwed quite yet. And given the area he's in, it's not like he's passing up his only chance at a place to land.
 
Capt. Geoffrey Thorpe said:
That 178 second thing is total ********.

Back in the '50s the took a bunch of pilots who had never ever flown on instruments, put them in a Bo (instead of a Cub that they were used to), covered the DG, horizon, and rate of climb, did the yellow tint/blue goggle thing and said "your airplane".
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But the purpose was to show how easy it is to train a system that works, which is the video I posted above.
 
NoHeat said:
Railroad tracks.
...
Fly at least 300’ AGL if you can, lower if you must.
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But not too much lower :)

37.jpg
 
MauleSkinner said:
But the purpose was to show how easy it is to train a system that works, which is the video I posted above.
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No. The video does the whole dramatic countdown on how long you have to live with the ever faster heartbeat and the camera jerking back and forth, now you have 20 seconds, the world is spinning faster...

All based on a bogus statistic.
 
Clark1961 said:
What about them? They are charted and elevation is marked. Slow down to approach speed in low visibility conditions.
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Minor nitpick. You HOPE they’re all charted.

That was the big dust up about the MET towers a while back. They were temporary and not charted.

For the most part though, yeah. Charted.

I know you’ve seen this but those who haven’t done the IR usually haven’t. It’s kinda neat AND creepy at the same time to see a big one sticking UP out of the undercast below you as you’re being vectored for an approach.

Just this big blinky red and white stick poking up out of the clouds... as it drifts by slightly below you on one side or the other. :)
 
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