Precautionary off-field landing

[WannFly]

would you do a precautionary off field landing?

there are 2 books that I have read that talks about it, both states that this was something that was preached and taught back in the day, no so much anymore. the idea is, when you are boxed in its better to land where you can see and deal with the inconvenience later than try to scud run and hit something / get into graveyard spiral

books in reference: Weather Flying by Bob Buck and Thinking pilots flight manual (Vol 1) by Rick Durden

Here is the hypothetical situation:

• A low time VFR Pilot with NO instrument training beyond what's done in PPL - to protect the innocent, lets call him WannFly
• WannFly took off on a MVFR day with 2500 OVC and 4 miles vis to wander around in the pattern. when he was in the pattern, he thought the weather to the NW looks good and proceeded towards there - he shouldn't have, but lets say he did
• After some time, he finds himself boxed in - visibility is now down to 2 miles (best guess), there is some mist and rain which makes the visibility look more like 1 mile or less, ceiling is suddenly down to 800 feet or less and is coming down.
• he checks ATIS / ASOS of nearby field - the one with the big runway and a tower is IFR
• there are 2 other airports where he is flying around - weather is pretty grim out there too. one of the airport is little better with 700 ceiling, but to get there, there are a couple of tall towers (1000+ AGL) with invisible guy wires
• It has come down to survivability, legal requirements for cloud clearance etc has gone out of the spit window long time back. WannFly would rather be on the ground to answer any question FAA might have

here is a pictorial representation of where his sorry arse is



in this very hypothetical situation, what would you do?

1. use Synthetic Vision on iThing and shoot for one of the non towered airports and hope he doesn't hit anything or get into a graveyard spiral. NOTE: No instrument training
2. call up the towered field, fess up, use E word, ask for vectors to ensure obstacle clearance - try to fly that vector on instrument, in the cloud and HOPE he doesn't loose control
3. land on the field below him - deal with the farmer later OR land on a county road and deal with the rest later
4. there are some private grass strips out there, but they are covered in mud/snow

What will a POA-er do?

 

[mscard88]

2 if you think you can stay on the instruments and right side up.

Fess up early and get on the ground. Dumb arse!

 

[WannFly]

2 if you think you can stay on the instruments and right side up.

Fess up early and get on the ground. Dumb arse!

yah but without instrument training WannFly *may think* he is good to go with all the gadgets he has, but he doesn't know jack **it about instrument scan

 

[SkyDog58]

So...

what did you do?

 

[redtail]

Years ago as a student and freshly minted VFR pilot after getting my PPL, I'd probably pick #2.
Knowing what I know now, I'd definitely pick #3.

I grew up with a girl named Hope and she was never that friendly with me, lol

 

[mscard88]

yah but without instrument training WannFly *may think* he is good to go with all the gadgets he has, but he doesn't know jack **it about instrument scan

You'll learn quick or you die boy!
Just don't respond to what you feel you think the plane is doing, fly and trust the instruments. Attitude Indicator tells you everything at once. Others are more or less supporting instruments. We're talking no shet emergency deal here.

 

[Skip Miller]

Rely on your instrument training. Yes our intrepid pilot has *some*, or he would not have the PPL cert. And #2 confess and get help. I second the "Dumb Arse" comment. -Skip

 

[Clark1961]

Scud run, baby. Casselton is legal at one mile and clear of the clouds. You can fly lower than the ducks in G.

 

[injb]

I'm only a student pilot, but I would land in the field if it was safe. Look at it this way: nothing stops you from reevaluating the situation once you're on the ground. Whatever options you had about flying somewhere, you can still have those options if you take off again. But would you? If not, then you know you made the right decision by landing.

 

[WannFly]

So...

what did you do?

guess my "protect the innocent" tactic need some work.. ha

Me? I wised up and landed after 3 laps in the pattern. the weather did look good towards NW, TAF said it would be 2500 OVC all day long, venturing around did cross my mind, but since I am a top class chicken, I decided to call it a day and not go anywhere. the situation did unfold an hour after I landed and I observed it from the ground, in the FBO sipping on a hot cup of coffee and patted my back for not being a bold pilot that day

 

[Tantalum]

After some time, he finds himself boxed in - visibility is now down to 2 miles (best guess), there is some mist and rain which makes the visibility look more like 1 mile or less, ceiling is suddenly down to 800 feet or less and is coming down

Something very similar happened to me very shortly after I got my PPL.. called ASH tower and fessed up (sorta).. they said they could guide me back to ASH but conditions were deteriorating. I declined.. it was clear-ish ahead of me (traveling west). This was before Foreflight days but I looked at the sectional and found AFN maybe 3 miles to the north.. so I landed there and waited a few hours for weather to clear up. While I was there an R22 also came in and landed, also running from the weather. It was the summer, so it stayed light long, and I departed and made it back to ASH right around, or just before, sunset. Me and the R22 left about 20 minutes apart.. he left first also going back to ASH... since after 20 minutes to half hour he didn't come back I figured it was clear to make the short hop back to ASH.. so I did, and it was

WannFly took off on a MVFR day with 2500 OVC and 4 miles vis to wander around

I learned a lesson that day.. and was much more careful with the weather following that. I was lucky that AFN was a stone's throw from me and I could land. Since that day I never took again in MVFR and gave myself very high weather minimums until becoming IR

in this very hypothetical situation, what would you do?

Had AFN *not* been there, I would probably have gone with your option two and put 1,000% of my focus on the instruments.. however.. if the radio for some reason was dead, then I would find a field or road and do my best to make it down in one piece, rather than tool around in the clouds in deteriorating conditions

 

[Velocity173]

I wouldn’t call 2 miles vis “boxed in.” Turn around and go back to your 4 / 2500 dept field. WX there isn’t going to drop that fast unless the joint just got hit by a TS just after you left.

 

[mscard88]

Me and the R22 left about 20 minutes apart.. he left first also going back to ASH... since after 20 minutes to half hour he didn't come back I figured it was clear to make the short hop back to ASH.. so I did, and it was

Suggestion for the future. You could have asked that R22 guy to radio back a pirep to help your decision of whether to take back off or not.

 

[WannFly]

I wouldn’t call 2 miles vis “boxed in.” Turn around and go back to your 4 / 2500 dept field. WX there isn’t going to drop that fast unless the joint just got hit by a TS just after you left.

it did, in an hour or so, the front moved way faster than predicted. this was a true story, apart from me being in the middle of it. I was at the FBO when all these happened

 

[Bill]

What are these "fields" things people speak of? Around here, we have trees and/or hills. Not many hospitable places to land out.

 

[WannFly]

What are these "fields" things people speak of? Around here, we have trees and/or hills. Not many hospitable places to land out.

swing by here, you can count the trees with one hand :d:d

 

[WannFly]

Scud run, baby. Casselton is legal at one mile and clear of the clouds. You can fly lower than the ducks in G.

yah but those guy wires holding the Amenia towers are not very friendly

 

[WannFly]

ok so far the generic consensus is, trust instruments and go for it. why would you not choose option 3 (off field)? I guess that's the clarifying question here and that's what the author of those books mentioned as well. people will try to fly on instruments without training and kill themselves (with multiple supporting accident case studies) rather than land on a road / field and face the inconvenience.

 

[James331]

would you do a precautionary off field landing?

there are 2 books that I have read that talks about it, both states that this was something that was preached and taught back in the day, no so much anymore. the idea is, when you are boxed in its better to land where you can see and deal with the inconvenience later than try to scud run and hit something / get into graveyard spiral

books in reference: Weather Flying by Bob Buck and Thinking pilots flight manual (Vol 1) by Rick Durden

Here is the hypothetical situation:

• A low time VFR Pilot with NO instrument training beyond what's done in PPL - to protect the innocent, lets call him WannFly
• WannFly took off on a MVFR day with 2500 OVC and 4 miles vis to wander around in the pattern. when he was in the pattern, he thought the weather to the NW looks good and proceeded towards there - he shouldn't have, but lets say he did
• After some time, he finds himself boxed in - visibility is now down to 2 miles (best guess), there is some mist and rain which makes the visibility look more like 1 mile or less, ceiling is suddenly down to 800 feet or less and is coming down.
• he checks ATIS / ASOS of nearby field - the one with the big runway and a tower is IFR
• there are 2 other airports where he is flying around - weather is pretty grim out there too. one of the airport is little better with 700 ceiling, but to get there, there are a couple of tall towers (1000+ AGL) with invisible guy wires
• It has come down to survivability, legal requirements for cloud clearance etc has gone out of the spit window long time back. WannFly would rather be on the ground to answer any question FAA might have

here is a pictorial representation of where his sorry arse is

View attachment 61302

in this very hypothetical situation, what would you do?

1. use Synthetic Vision on iThing and shoot for one of the non towered airports and hope he doesn't hit anything or get into a graveyard spiral. NOTE: No instrument training
2. call up the towered field, fess up, use E word, ask for vectors to ensure obstacle clearance - try to fly that vector on instrument, in the cloud and HOPE he doesn't loose control
3. land on the field below him - deal with the farmer later OR land on a county road and deal with the rest later
4. there are some private grass strips out there, but they are covered in mud/snow

What will a POA-er do?

LAND

Not even a question.

If you're even thinking that the situation is to that point, don't second guess yourself and die, land.

This is why I think some backcountry training would be good for most pilots, the airplane really doesn't know the difference between a road/ smooth field / hard wet beach / or a airport, if its smooth enough, you don't hit anything, it's all the same to the plane.

This is also why I have always taught my students to error on the side of staying UNDER a cloud deck vs chancing getting stuck on top, and if it gets really bad they are to land anywhere they view would be safe.

Playing the IMC game without training and or proper equipment will get you killed, landing off field will most likely not hurt anything, might not even be noticed (not that that matters) and in the unlikely event that snag something with your wing, or flip, it's still waaaaaay less likely to kill you vs lawn darting after playing in IMC.



LAND.

 

[Clark1961]

yah but those guy wires holding the Amenia towers are not very friendly

Sheet, jus stay at least a half mile west of Amenia and yer golden.

 

[Velocity173]

it did, in an hour or so, the front moved way faster than predicted. this was a true story, apart from me being in the middle of it. I was at the FBO when all these happened

Ok, an hour or so change in weather, on a local flight, would give one plenty of time to recognize the deterioration and turn back home. You can see an approaching front coming, don’t fly into it. Just like fog, the signs are there in ample time to make a decision.

Now, area thunderstorms can turn your departure field into a mess in minutes while you've been gone. Key there is to have enough gas to 1) hold until they clear or 2) divert to other airfields not under a storm.

 

[DaleB]

I'd land in the field as a last resort only. If there's any way to make it to a real runway (including, but not limited to, scud running or calling Approach/Tower for confession and vectors) I'm taking it. The off-airport landing is a virtual guarantee of airplane disassembly, either intentional (for transport) or upon impact unless you can find an empty chunk of road, and those are notoriously bad about having power and phone lines crossing in inconvenient places.

700' ceiling? If you know where the big towers are and can stay half a mile or more away from them, 690 AGL works fine. It looks like everything between you and Casselton is below 400'. I'd tuck tail and hot-foot south to 5N8, there to con template my folly and vow never to be so dumb again.

 

[Tantalum]

Suggestion for the future. You could have asked that R22 guy to radio back a pirep to help your decision of whether to take back off or not

Yeah, that's a good point, not sure why neither of us thought of that of the time. I remember thinking that I was jealous of him though, that he could theoretically pretty much land anywhere if he really had to

 

[C-1 PILOT]

FLY THE PLANE, call ATC and say the E word...

And if you are really in doubt and concerned about terrain...CLIMB!

 

[redtail]

I was up with my CFI finishing up last minute prep for my checkride on the same hazy/low visibility day that JFK jr bought it. I was training at TEB, he departed CDW.
That memory has never left the back of my mind! Made a few 180s back to my departure airport after that, over the years

 

[FlySince9]

I observed it from the ground, in the FBO sipping on a hot cup of coffee and patted my back for not being a bold pilot that day

And so you lived the way of the old saying, "its better to be down here, wishing you were up there, rather than....."

 

[Clark1961]

FLY THE PLANE, call ATC and say the E word...

And if you are really in doubt and concerned about terrain...CLIMB!

It's North Dakota. The highest point in the state is also the lowest point in the state. Okay, not quite but you get the point.

 

[wdewg88]

Scud run, baby. Casselton is legal at one mile and clear of the clouds. You can fly lower than the ducks in G.

what about all the towers?

 

[455 Bravo Uniform]

Screw the plane, save your skin. Touchdown in a field, flip it, rip the wings off. Second guess yourself later, cuz at least you’re still alive. I’ll take the surer thing every time (or at least I think I would).

 

[mscard88]

Yeah, that's a good point, not sure why neither of us thought of that of the time. I remember thinking that I was jealous of him though, that he could theoretically pretty much land anywhere if he really had to

Yep a definite advantage!

 

[mscard88]

ok so far the generic consensus is, trust instruments and go for it. why would you not choose option 3 (off field)? I guess that's the clarifying question here and that's what the author of those books mentioned as well. people will try to fly on instruments without and kill themselves (with multiple supporting accident case studies) rather than land on a road / field and face the inconvenience.

Depends where you're at as far as what type of terrain you have. Flying over hilly/mountainous terrain not as many options as there would be over flat terrain. Dirt road works well just look out for poles and wires. But it all comes down to whether you can handle some IMC to get to a paved runway, or if you can't then land in a field, road, etc.

 

[Zeldman]

Anyone ever hear of SVFR..??? No need to declare anything.

I don't see any class E airspace, so SVFR isn't even needed, except for the towered airport.

Arthur would have been my first choice. Casselton or Hillsboro would have been my 2nd choices.

Fly around the towers.

Land at one of the private fields. if the owner gets peed, take off and land at another one, but it would be a sucky person to turn you away.

 

[Clark1961]

ok so far the generic consensus is, trust instruments and go for it. why would you not choose option 3 (off field)? I guess that's the clarifying question here and that's what the author of those books mentioned as well. people will try to fly on instruments without training and kill themselves (with multiple supporting accident case studies) rather than land on a road / field and face the inconvenience.

I would not tell a non-instrument rated pilot to go into the clouds. If the private airstrips are snowy/muddy so will the farms. Roads have power lines. Use the visibility requirements of G and land safely on a runway. If vis drops below G requirements then E-word and land on private strip. A little snow and mud on an airstrip is better than a plowed field with snow and mud.

 

[Clark1961]

what about all the towers?

What about them? They are charted and elevation is marked. Slow down to approach speed in low visibility conditions.

 

[F01LA]

I'd land in the field as a last resort only. If there's any way to make it to a real runway (including, but not limited to, scud running or calling Approach/Tower for confession and vectors) I'm taking it. The off-airport landing is a virtual guarantee of airplane disassembly, either intentional (for transport) or upon impact unless you can find an empty chunk of road, and those are notoriously bad about having power and phone lines crossing in inconvenient places.

Problem is.. in the moment, it can be very hard to know if it's truly your "last resort" or not. Saying "I can make it.. I'm still OK.. A little bit farther.." tends to result in very bad outcomes. Broken airplanes are no fun, but they beat broken bodies.

I'm guessing the guy in this video kept convincing himself that he wasn't quite at the last resort, until the final few seconds. He even had a chute at his disposal.

 

[WannFly]

Problem is.. in the moment, it can be very hard to know if it's truly your "last resort" or not. Saying "I can make it.. I'm still OK.. A little bit farther.." tends to result in very bad outcomes. Broken airplanes are no fun, but they beat broken bodies.

I'm guessing the guy in this video kept convincing himself that he wasn't quite at the last resort, until the final few seconds. He even had a chute at his disposal.

yes, there are a few ASI videos on this topic too. one is about a Dr., instrument rated and current, ran out of fuel while trying to shoot approaches at various airports, there was a MIL airport where he could land but he thought he will be in trouble if he did and pressed on, ran out of fuel and eventually landed - in pieces.
another one where an ATP kept pressing on and hit some trees when the visibility dropped to near zero and he was scud running at 200 AGL. I am pretty sure they all thought.. I can get out of this

 

[WannFly]

Accident Case Study: VFR into IMC - Commercial pilot, >1000 hr

Accident Case Study: Emergency Management - Private and Instrument, about 1000 hrs total time

yeah we can all say after watching the analysis what went wrong, and how we will never get into such situations, but the fact of the matter is, we might find ourselves in a situation like this.

 

[DaleB]

Problem is.. in the moment, it can be very hard to know if it's truly your "last resort" or not.

If the big fan quits turning and I'm not within glide range of the runway... it's time.

If it's obvious I won't be able to make it back to an airport before visibility gets too low to clear obstacles... it's time.

19 miles out, 800', the airport I'm heading for has a 700' ceiling and the obstacles between me and it are below 400', it's not time yet. It's ND (or NE, IA, SD, KS, take your pick); plenty of places to land between me and the runway if things deteriorate too far.

 

[F01LA]

19 miles out, 800', the airport I'm heading for has a 700' ceiling and the obstacles between me and it are below 400', it's not time yet. It's ND (or NE, IA, SD, KS, take your pick); plenty of places to land between me and the runway if things deteriorate too far.

Normally I might agree. What made me hit "eject" on this one was the ceilings still lowering, and near-1-mile visibility.

 

[steingar]

Can't imagine calling for an emergency in this situation, what're they going to do for me? If I'm that boxed in its time to put it down. Worst case when I go to land is I prang the aircraft, maybe prang me. Most likely outcome if I try to fly it in IFR conditions is spatial disorientation and death. Pick out the best spot below me, get low, check it for obstacles and land. Let the insurance and the FAA sort it out later, important thing is to get on the ground and stay alive.