Prebuy -- Why Some Of Us Won't Do Them

"Honorable people have no issues with written contracts that clearly define each party's role and responsibility."

warthog1984 said:
^If I hear this, I run, because anybody who says it is usually up to no good.

You want 1-2 page documentation of scope & price, great. If it's a semi-routine repair and your "contract" is 10 pages long with 5 of it being backside fine print, I'm wondering why you are hiding behind your lawyers.
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Feel free to run... it would save buyer/seller alot of time. In the context I was thinking of that's generally what I'm looking for when when I ask a seller if they are willing to use an AOPA contract in the sale of their aircraft. Some of them panic. And I'm fine with that.

As to annual's, I don't think I've ever gotten more then just a short blurb before an annual.... although unfortunately I've gotten quite long squawk lists at times.
 
And I'd run from anybody who insisted on using the boilerplate AOPA contract.
Numerous other formats are better.


Jeff K said:
"Honorable people have no issues with written contracts that clearly define each party's role and responsibility."



Feel free to run... it would save buyer/seller alot of time. In the context I was thinking of that's generally what I'm looking for when when I ask a seller if they are willing to use an AOPA contract in the sale of their aircraft. Some of them panic. And I'm fine with that.

As to annual's, I don't think I've ever gotten more then just a short blurb before an annual.... although unfortunately I've gotten quite long squawk lists at times.
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I don't often do them because most buyers don't have a clew what really needs to be looked at.
 
Jeff K said:
In the context I was thinking of that's generally what I'm looking for when when I ask a seller if they are willing to use an AOPA contract in the sale of their aircraft.
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Unfortunately, AOPA's new server doesn't seem to have enough functionality yet to display a copy of their sample contract. :(
 
How tough can it be to draft a scope of work clause? If I encounter a mechanic who can't handle that chore in about 10 minutes, that's all the evidence I need to look elsewhere.
 
How many of you A&Ps would refuse a new buyer the help to buy a good aircraft?

Call it a pre-buy or mentoring,,,,,,, does it really make a difference?
 
wabower said:
How tough can it be to draft a scope of work clause? If I encounter a mechanic who can't handle that chore in about 10 minutes, that's all the evidence I need to look elsewhere.
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Most of the A&Ps working the small airports under their own license do not want to be bothered with the paper.

You shove a legal notice notice/contract under my nose I'm telling you to hit the street.
 
That's one of the best ways I can think of to be sure your business remains a shade-tree one-man show. If you can't tell me what you think is important to inspect and what else I might want to look at, there's no reason for us to continue the conversation.

If you're spooked because you're being asked to confirm the scope of work you and the owner decide to accomplish, your business acumen and credibility are immediately downgraded to non-contender.



Tom-D said:
Most of the A&Ps working the small airports under their own license do not want to be bothered with the paper.

You shove a legal notice notice/contract under my nose I'm telling you to hit the street.
Click to expand...
 
Jeff K said:
In the context I was thinking of that's generally what I'm looking for when when I ask a seller if they are willing to use an AOPA contract in the sale of their aircraft. Some of them panic. And I'm fine with that.
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Oh good lord. You insist a "honest" person will have no problem with a multi-page "contract" for routine services and then think a pre-written template covering every one of the 50 states is just fine and dandy as-is.:yikes:

People like that are the reason people like me will always have "fix it" work available.
 
Tom-D said:
Most of the A&Ps working the small airports under their own license do not want to be bothered with the paper.

You shove a legal notice notice/contract under my nose I'm telling you to hit the street.
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@Tom-D: Are you referring to a boilerplate contract/legalese form or a cost/scope write-up?

I'd be really concerned if a mechanic couldn't/wouldn't draft a cost/scope estimate before opening up a plane. IME, that never ends well. "Contracts", not so much.
 
Tom-D said:
Most of the A&Ps working the small airports under their own license do not want to be bothered with the paper.

You shove a legal notice notice/contract under my nose I'm telling you to hit the street.
Click to expand...

You only have to write it once, Tom. Add some checkboxes for common things and a blank area to write in special stuff. Just a thought.
 
denverpilot said:
You only have to write it once, Tom. Add some checkboxes for common things and a blank area to write in special stuff. Just a thought.
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Who' talking about writing it?

seldom does any two aircraft and or buyers fit a form letter contract.
 
warthog1984 said:
Oh good lord. You insist a "honest" person will have no problem with a multi-page "contract" for routine services and then think a pre-written template covering every one of the 50 states is just fine and dandy as-is.:yikes:
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Did he say multi-page?
 
wabower said:
That's one of the best ways I can think of to be sure your business remains a shade-tree one-man show. If you can't tell me what you think is important to inspect and what else I might want to look at, there's no reason for us to continue the conversation.

If you're spooked because you're being asked to confirm the scope of work you and the owner decide to accomplish, your business acumen and credibility are immediately downgraded to non-contender.
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Yep,, bye have a good day, I have plenty to do with out teaching nubes how to buy aircraft.
 
warthog1984 said:
Oh good lord. You insist a "honest" person will have no problem with a multi-page "contract" for routine services and then think a pre-written template covering every one of the 50 states is just fine and dandy as-is.:yikes:

People like that are the reason people like me will always have "fix it" work available.
Click to expand...

If you are going to be calling on the lord to help you on the blueboard, at least pay attention. I was referring to aircraft sales. And no, a pre-written template isn't OK. I have my attorney review the contracts. As to maintenance, never had a contract for that or even really considered it.

If you want to sell or buy a home or aircraft just based on a handshake from someone you don't know... power to you. I just won't be a party to that transaction. Deal with it...
 
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Palmpilot said:
Did he say multi-page?
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No. This is what I said relative to maintenance/annuals/prebuys agreements:

As to annual's, I don't think I've ever gotten more then just a short blurb before an annual.... although unfortunately I've gotten quite long squawk lists at times.
Click to expand...
 
(?) Why would ANYONE do a "pre buy" whatever the heck that is. It's completely undefined.

The Buyer needs do an ANNUAL. If the buy cannot afford an ANNUAL on purchase, how is he going to afford to take care of the aircraft in years hence?
 
bbchien said:
(?) Why would ANYONE do a "pre buy" whatever the heck that is. It's completely undefined.

The Buyer needs do an ANNUAL. If the buy cannot afford an ANNUAL on purchase, how is he going to afford to take care of the aircraft in years hence?
Click to expand...

I agree. I'm VERY new to all of this, but a pre-buy is way too vague. I appreciate that the annual requires the airplane to be deemed airworthy. Anything less just isn't enough IMO.
 
bbchien said:
(?) Why would ANYONE do a "pre buy" whatever the heck that is. It's completely undefined.

The Buyer needs do an ANNUAL. If the buy cannot afford an ANNUAL on purchase, how is he going to afford to take care of the aircraft in years hence?
Click to expand...

Yeap.... I don't want to fly anything unless my mechanics name is in the log.

But here is what I do, and it works well for seller's who are afraid of getting a plane tagged unairworthy remotely yet allows me to do an annual as part of the sales contract. I have my mechanic ideally at my location (I pay the seller's expenses to fly the plane to me) do a "prebuy".... which is partially the inspection part of the annual inspection. But he hits all the big ticket items first.

He generates an estimate of what it will take for airworthty items as well as any deal breakers (which he advises me of). Me and the seller already have a contract in place that spells out how much the seller will pay to resolve the airworthy items. If we are within budget we then remove that contingency and proceed forward with the annual. If not, and there are no deal breakers, we talk about it. If we can't come to terms, the mechanic buttons the plane up and the seller returns home with no log entries in his log book with me paying the expenses home.

BTW Bruce, I more or less developed this from the sheet you were circulating a few years ago on how to buy a plane. About half the seller's (mostly brokers) reject this right off the bat. Previously I had been trying to work with these folks but almost to a one I found their airplanes would massively fail the prebuy and/or they couldn't keep their word. So now one of my first questions before I expend any funds is if the seller would be willing to use something similar to the AOPA purchase contract. It can be different.. but most everyone knows this general format.

The key thing for me is both parties have skin in the game.
 
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Jeff K said:
Yeap.... I don't want to fly anything unless my mechanics name is in the log.

But here is what I do, and it works well for seller's who are afraid of getting a plane tagged unairworthy remotely yet allows me to do an annual as part of the sales contract. I have my mechanic ideally at my location (I pay the seller's expenses to fly the plane to me) do a "prebuy".... which is partially the inspection part of the annual inspection. But he hits all the big ticket items first.

He generates an estimate of what it will take for airworthty items as well as any deal breakers (which he advises me of). Me and the seller already have a contract in place that spells out how much the seller will pay to resolve the airworthy items. If we are within budget we then remove that contingency and proceed forward with the annual. If not, and there are no deal breakers, we talk about it. If we can't come to terms, the mechanic buttons the plane up and the seller returns home with no log entries in his log book with me paying the expenses home.

BTW Bruce, I more or less developed this from the sheet you were circulating a few years ago on how to buy a plane. About half the seller's (mostly brokers) reject this right off the bat. Previously I had been trying to work with these folks but almost to a one I found their airplanes would massively fail the prebuy and/or they couldn't keep their word. So now one of my first questions before I expend any funds is if the seller would be willing to use something similar to the AOPA purchase contract. It can be different.. but most everyone knows this general format.
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I tell the seller that he send PDFs of the logbooks. No entry is made into the aircraft log unless the deal is consummated. The actually physical logs stay with the seller.

If he can't hack that, I say, "buyer's market, bye bye!" I've bought 7 and sold 6 aircraft in 20 years.
 
warthog1984 said:
^If I hear this, I run, because anybody who says it is usually up to no good.

You want 1-2 page documentation of scope & price, great. If it's a semi-routine repair and your "contract" is 10 pages long with 5 of it being backside fine print, I'm wondering why you are hiding behind your lawyers.
Click to expand...

I have some pretty extensive agreements that I get signed before I allow any work to proceed. Every single damn one of them is due to me being screwed in the past because of not having it. I had someone we never saw before bring in a cat for a simple nail trim. The cat died of osteo-sarcoma a few months later and they tried to sue me because "we should have noticed". I don't have doctors trim toenails. I have technician assistants or receptionists do that. Of course after a few exchanges she went away but it was distressing. Guess what I have new clients do now when they bring in a cat for a simple nail trim!


The absolute worst customer in my business is the one that says "no, I don't need an estimate; do whatever it takes". That invariably turns out to mean that they never had any intention of paying in the first place. and it is against the law for me to hold their animal (I have a veterinary hospital) until the bill is paid. I can't even refuse to send the medical records to another veterinarian because they stiffed me for a huge sum of money.

But I do understand what you mean. I recently refused to sign a contract with a supplier because the contract seemed too long, too extensive and too adamant that if I sign I give up virtually all my rights and recourse. eg: "You will not be allowed to cancel this contract for any reason".
 
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I prefer an annual as well, but such an inspection isn't always possible or practical, especially if it must be done at a remote location. The key ingredient in such cases is a mechanic who knows what he's looking at as well as what he's looking for. An owner who can read and write is also handy to have along on the trip.

bbchien said:
(?) Why would ANYONE do a "pre buy" whatever the heck that is. It's completely undefined.

The Buyer needs do an ANNUAL. If the buy cannot afford an ANNUAL on purchase, how is he going to afford to take care of the aircraft in years hence?
Click to expand...
 
JOhnH said:
I have some pretty extensive agreements that I get signed before I allow any work to proceed. Every single damn one of them is due to me being screwed in the past because of not having it.
Click to expand...

To be clear: I was referring more to Jeff K's setup where a buyer would engage a mechanic for an inspection but want a full-on template legalese contract.

If you are the mechanic/vendor, I'd expect semi-routine T&Cs; just as I'd expect a buyer engaging a vendor to want an estimate/scope beforehand.

It's when the T&Cs start resembling "s&^%$ you" clauses and/or start getting too extensive (especially when it is the customer insisting) that it throws up a red flag.

I've done a lot of work off simple initial proposals and minor handshake mods- it's worked out OK. I've also seen people who don't read the proposal, write very vague/impossible statements ("will do all work"), and/or have either template contracts or contracts a little too detailed- that doesn't work out well.

The worst are:
1) people who insist "if you're honest, you have nothing to hide"; usually these people are already planning to s&^%$ you over.
2) Churches; some of the contracts I've seen church boards put forward...
 
warthog1984 said:
To be clear: I was referring more to Jeff K's setup where a buyer would engage a mechanic for an inspection but want a full-on template legalese contract.
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Actually no you weren't... because I never said that. In fact, I was pretty clear I engage mechanic's (so far to this date) with no contract's other then an estimate of the flat rate for the annual.

Even if I did do contracts with A&P's for annuals, at least in your case it wouldn't matter since you likely wouldn't read it to begin with. :goofy:
 
wabower said:
I prefer an annual as well, but such an inspection isn't always possible or practical, especially if it must be done at a remote location. The key ingredient in such cases is a mechanic who knows what he's looking at as well as what he's looking for. An owner who can read and write is also handy to have along on the trip.
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$40,000! and NOT a penny more!
 
bbchien said:
(?) Why would ANYONE do a "pre buy" whatever the heck that is. It's completely undefined.

The Buyer needs do an ANNUAL. If the buy cannot afford an ANNUAL on purchase, how is he going to afford to take care of the aircraft in years hence?
Click to expand...


To me an annual and a prebuy are totally different animals. The annual says that on the day and instant it was signed, it was airworthy. Not that it will need brakes next year, or that there is corrosion that hasn't lapsed into unairworthy YET, or that compression is teetering on the good side of acceptable, but AIRWORTHY.

A prebuy is FAR more intensive than an annual. You are expected (in my short 40 years of APIA) to not only inspect for airworthy, but conditions MAY be airworthy problems in the near/distant future AND stuff that isn't on the airworthy list (working comm, marker receiver, etc.) but isn't working. My $200 annual fee morphs into a $1000 prebuy fee without much problem.

Jim
 
jmn444 said:
I agree. I'm VERY new to all of this, but a pre-buy is way too vague. I appreciate that the annual requires the airplane to be deemed airworthy. Anything less just isn't enough IMO.
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I could ANNUAL your airplane and you would find stuff on it when I am done that was broken. Not working. But not necessary for airworthy. YOu folks just don't understand that an annual doesn't put the airplane in the condition it was the day it left the factory door. LEARN THAT.

Simple example ... does the clock work? Hell, I have NO IDEA because a clock isn't required equipment. The engine is. THe big pieces of the airframe are. compliance with airworthiness directives are. Is your altimeter within specifications? I have no idea. Does the DG work? I have no idea.

Got the idea?


Jim
 
I think it's a good idea for you to continue to refrain from doing pre-buys since you obviously don't understand the standards or rationale that any buyer with a lick of sense will require.

Airworthiness isn't the only standard to which the aircraft will be held, and "systems and installed equipment shall be functionally operational" is a required element that savvy purchasers include in all contracts.

Buyers also know (or should) that the next inspection their plane will undergo will most likely be an annual, and that it will most likely require more time and money than they want (or should be required) to spend on the heels of a pre-buy, and may choose to convert the pre-buy to an annual to run the down-time clock on somebody else's nickel.

I've owned more than 30 planes and represented buyers of several hundred more, have never done it any other way and have no intention of changing now.

QUOTE=weirdjim;1235958]I could ANNUAL your airplane and you would find stuff on it when I am done that was broken. Not working. But not necessary for airworthy. YOu folks just don't understand that an annual doesn't put the airplane in the condition it was the day it left the factory door. LEARN THAT.

Simple example ... does the clock work? Hell, I have NO IDEA because a clock isn't required equipment. The engine is. THe big pieces of the airframe are. compliance with airworthiness directives are. Is your altimeter within specifications? I have no idea. Does the DG work? I have no idea.

Got the idea?


Jim[/QUOTE]
 
bbchien said:
(?) Why would ANYONE do a "pre buy" whatever the heck that is. It's completely undefined.

The Buyer needs do an ANNUAL. If the buy cannot afford an ANNUAL on purchase, how is he going to afford to take care of the aircraft in years hence?
Click to expand...

Paid for two partial annuals, the third was the charm. First two birds were not as represented.
 
wabower said:
Airworthiness isn't the only standard to which the aircraft will be held, and "systems and installed equipment shall be functionally operational" is a required element that savvy purchasers include in all contracts.

Sure, and I just KNOW you sign A&P IA after your name on each of the airplanes YOU prebuy. No? You shuffle them off onto some other person? So you expect them to see that the DME is working by using a DME test set? And the marker beacon? And the com on all channels? Likewise the nav? And the temperature gauges are all spot on? ANd if off, by how much and what is the specification for accuracy? The fuel gauges are dead accurate, and if not, by how much? HOw much is allowable? You tach-check with an accurate meter each tach? And the engine, you put it on a dyno to be sure it is putting out legal power? And the prop is within specs for angle between flat and max? And it meets spec for full flat to max within so many seconds? According to an unpublished spec?

Do you want me to keep going, or do you understand the idiocity of your supposition that a prebuy is a guarantee that all the systems of the airplane are within spec?
​
I've owned more than 30 planes and represented buyers of several hundred more, have never done it any other way and have no intention of changing now.

Good for you. We need clods like you to take care of lawyers and doctors who want to buy airplanes without a frikkin CLUE what they are getting.​
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Spoken by the same guy who was ready to bet his ticket on the wrong side of the shape of an aileron pushrod. Clueless then, more so now.


weirdjim said:
wabower said:
Airworthiness isn't the only standard to which the aircraft will be held, and "systems and installed equipment shall be functionally operational" is a required element that savvy purchasers include in all contracts.

Sure, and I just KNOW you sign A&P IA after your name on each of the airplanes YOU prebuy. No? You shuffle them off onto some other person? So you expect them to see that the DME is working by using a DME test set? And the marker beacon? And the com on all channels? Likewise the nav? And the temperature gauges are all spot on? ANd if off, by how much and what is the specification for accuracy? The fuel gauges are dead accurate, and if not, by how much? HOw much is allowable? You tach-check with an accurate meter each tach? And the engine, you put it on a dyno to be sure it is putting out legal power? And the prop is within specs for angle between flat and max? And it meets spec for full flat to max within so many seconds? According to an unpublished spec?

Do you want me to keep going, or do you understand the idiocity of your supposition that a prebuy is a guarantee that all the systems of the airplane are within spec?
​
I've owned more than 30 planes and represented buyers of several hundred more, have never done it any other way and have no intention of changing now.

Good for you. We need clods like you to take care of lawyers and doctors who want to buy airplanes without a frikkin CLUE what they are getting.​
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Click to expand...
 
wabower said:
Spoken by the same guy who was ready to bet his ticket on the wrong side of the shape of an aileron pushrod. Clueless then, more so now.

Go take your meds, now, Wayne, everything is going to be all right.

Oh, and my "ticket" is 2261417 A&P IA. Your is?

Jim
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weirdjim said:
Simple example ... does the clock work? Hell, I have NO IDEA because a clock isn't required equipment. The engine is. THe big pieces of the airframe are. compliance with airworthiness directives are. Is your altimeter within specifications? I have no idea. Does the DG work? I have no idea.

Got the idea?
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Yes.

That is why a test flight is part of the purchase contract. I take the equipment list and type up a checklist of things I can check out while in flight... autopilot, DME, VOR, ILS, GPS, Radar, boots, trim, lighting, radios, transponder, heater, engine analyzer, etc etc. I think I even checked the clock on my Aztec (which BTW is required equipment for IFR flight).

Then it goes into the prebuy/annual. And in my test flight I caught the fact the VSI was indicating 100 ft descent while on the ground and that the heater had an issue. It went on the squawk list.

Jim... this thread took on a life of it's own however rolling back to the original post... if you are not comfortable doing a pre-buy for someone you don't know, then I just wouldn't do it. As a customer of mechanics myself I am not comfortable doing a prebuy/annual with a mechanic I don't personally know. I almost always ask for recommendations and get to know them a little. I've got 4 local mechanics at 4 different fields I'd trust to do maintenance on my aircraft yet each of them are different. One freaks if I give them an owner produced part yet another one is just fine with it. One charges $60/hr... another charges $85/hr (and the cheaper one is the best one).
 
Must be in the number range before common sense was required.
weirdjim said:
wabower said:
Spoken by the same guy who was ready to bet his ticket on the wrong side of the shape of an aileron pushrod. Clueless then, more so now.

Go take your meds, now, Wayne, everything is going to be all right.

Oh, and my "ticket" is 2261417 A&P IA. Your is?

Jim
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When I bought my Cardinal, I hired a mechanic who had contacted me on CFO to do the pre-buy. He lived in the same state as the owner but had no connection to him, as far as I could tell. The plane was being sold with a fresh annual so I didn't think I needed to do my own annual. My instructions were to do a thorough AD search and pre-buy inspection of the aircraft. I was especially interested in the condition of the wing spar carrythrough as corrosion there is legendary for lightening the wallets of Cardinal owners to the tune of 10 AMU or more. The pre-buy mechanic knew that. He did the pre-buy in one day and e-mailed me a detailed report the next day. The plane was mechanically solid, said he.

Fast forward a year to my first annual. My A&P agrees that the plane is in good shape, with but one exception: the wing spar carrythrough has significant corrosion. The cause was obvious: mouse waste. Any chance the mice got in since I bought the plane? No chance says my guy, the nest and droppings are at least a couple of years old. He tries to remove the corrosion but no joy.

So I call the pre-buy mechanic and ask him how he could have missed this. He's flummoxed. He looked at it through the inspection panel and didn't see any problem. Well, no, the corrosion wasn't close to the panel. Didn't he at least poke a mirror and flashlight in there? Nope. No boroscope, and for sure he wasn't about to remove the headliner. Too time-consuming to do that and he didn't have the time. Argh! he knew it was high priority for me, I would have paid him for the extra time. At least tell me up front if you don't have the time or resources to give adequate attention to an item I've mentioned as a specific concern.

The pre-buy was done on a handshake so I had no legal recourse. I don't think I'd have sued him even if I'd had the means, I don't do business that way. I also got lucky: insurance covered the whole repair because the damage was caused by animals and was not normal wear and tear. But he's certainly off my list of potential pre-buy mechanics and he'll get no recommendation from me. Lesson learned: next time (if there is a next time) I'm going to insist on a full annual and make sure I'm physically present to oversee the work.

Just another data point.
 
Jeff K said:
Yeap.... I don't want to fly anything unless my mechanics name is in the log.

But here is what I do, and it works well for seller's who are afraid of getting a plane tagged unairworthy remotely yet allows me to do an annual as part of the sales contract. I have my mechanic ideally at my location (I pay the seller's expenses to fly the plane to me) do a "prebuy".... which is partially the inspection part of the annual inspection. But he hits all the big ticket items first.

He generates an estimate of what it will take for airworthty items as well as any deal breakers (which he advises me of). Me and the seller already have a contract in place that spells out how much the seller will pay to resolve the airworthy items. If we are within budget we then remove that contingency and proceed forward with the annual. If not, and there are no deal breakers, we talk about it. If we can't come to terms, the mechanic buttons the plane up and the seller returns home with no log entries in his log book with me paying the expenses home.

BTW Bruce, I more or less developed this from the sheet you were circulating a few years ago on how to buy a plane. About half the seller's (mostly brokers) reject this right off the bat. Previously I had been trying to work with these folks but almost to a one I found their airplanes would massively fail the prebuy and/or they couldn't keep their word. So now one of my first questions before I expend any funds is if the seller would be willing to use something similar to the AOPA purchase contract. It can be different.. but most everyone knows this general format.

The key thing for me is both parties have skin in the game.
Click to expand...

I think I missed the seller's skin in your explanation. Please elaborate for us slow types.
 
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