Prebuy -- Why Some Of Us Won't Do Them

azure said:
When I bought my Cardinal, I hired a mechanic who had contacted me on CFO to do the pre-buy. He lived in the same state as the owner but had no connection to him, as far as I could tell. The plane was being sold with a fresh annual so I didn't think I needed to do my own annual. My instructions were to do a thorough AD search and pre-buy inspection of the aircraft. I was especially interested in the condition of the wing spar carrythrough as corrosion there is legendary for lightening the wallets of Cardinal owners to the tune of 10 AMU or more. The pre-buy mechanic knew that. He did the pre-buy in one day and e-mailed me a detailed report the next day. The plane was mechanically solid, said he.

Fast forward a year to my first annual. My A&P agrees that the plane is in good shape, with but one exception: the wing spar carrythrough has significant corrosion. The cause was obvious: mouse waste. Any chance the mice got in since I bought the plane? No chance says my guy, the nest and droppings are at least a couple of years old. He tries to remove the corrosion but no joy.

So I call the pre-buy mechanic and ask him how he could have missed this. He's flummoxed. He looked at it through the inspection panel and didn't see any problem. Well, no, the corrosion wasn't close to the panel. Didn't he at least poke a mirror and flashlight in there? Nope. No boroscope, and for sure he wasn't about to remove the headliner. Too time-consuming to do that and he didn't have the time. Argh! he knew it was high priority for me, I would have paid him for the extra time. At least tell me up front if you don't have the time or resources to give adequate attention to an item I've mentioned as a specific concern.

The pre-buy was done on a handshake so I had no legal recourse. I don't think I'd have sued him even if I'd had the means, I don't do business that way. I also got lucky: insurance covered the whole repair because the damage was caused by animals and was not normal wear and tear. But he's certainly off my list of potential pre-buy mechanics and he'll get no recommendation from me. Lesson learned: next time (if there is a next time) I'm going to insist on a full annual and make sure I'm physically present to oversee the work.

Just another data point.
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I think I recall you discussing the mouse issue. Glad it worked out for you.
 
Jaybird180 said:
I think I missed the seller's skin in your explanation. Please elaborate for us slow types.
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He/she is flying the aircraft to you and taking it off the market. To me time is a valuable commodity and if I don't have to travel and my mechanic can do the prebuy at his shop that is of great value to me. My last seller flew his plane from New York to Michigan for the prebuy and it cost him 2-3 days of his time.

I do have a local mechanic verify the logs/ general visual condition/take some pictures before the contract is executed/the plane comes to me... maybe one billable hour at most. The seller has also cleared all the liens before they go wheels up and the escrow company only awaits our OK before the funds/bill of sale is released.
 
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azure said:
When I bought my Cardinal, I hired a mechanic who had contacted me on CFO to do the pre-buy. He lived in the same state as the owner but had no connection to him, as far as I could tell. The plane was being sold with a fresh annual so I didn't think I needed to do my own annual. My instructions were to do a thorough AD search and pre-buy inspection of the aircraft. I was especially interested in the condition of the wing spar carrythrough as corrosion there is legendary for lightening the wallets of Cardinal owners to the tune of 10 AMU or more. The pre-buy mechanic knew that. He did the pre-buy in one day and e-mailed me a detailed report the next day. The plane was mechanically solid, said he.

Fast forward a year to my first annual. My A&P agrees that the plane is in good shape, with but one exception: the wing spar carrythrough has significant corrosion. The cause was obvious: mouse waste. Any chance the mice got in since I bought the plane? No chance says my guy, the nest and droppings are at least a couple of years old. He tries to remove the corrosion but no joy.

So I call the pre-buy mechanic and ask him how he could have missed this. He's flummoxed. He looked at it through the inspection panel and didn't see any problem. Well, no, the corrosion wasn't close to the panel. Didn't he at least poke a mirror and flashlight in there? Nope. No boroscope, and for sure he wasn't about to remove the headliner. Too time-consuming to do that and he didn't have the time. Argh! he knew it was high priority for me, I would have paid him for the extra time. At least tell me up front if you don't have the time or resources to give adequate attention to an item I've mentioned as a specific concern.

The pre-buy was done on a handshake so I had no legal recourse. I don't think I'd have sued him even if I'd had the means, I don't do business that way. I also got lucky: insurance covered the whole repair because the damage was caused by animals and was not normal wear and tear. But he's certainly off my list of potential pre-buy mechanics and he'll get no recommendation from me. Lesson learned: next time (if there is a next time) I'm going to insist on a full annual and make sure I'm physically present to oversee the work.

Just another data point.
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Annuals DO NOT mean this would have been caught either. You want a corrosion free airplane? Insist the entire interior and all panels be removed on a prebuy. This rarely happens on annuals.
 
azure said:
My instructions were to do a thorough AD search and pre-buy inspection of the aircraft. I was especially interested in the condition of the wing spar carrythrough as corrosion there is legendary for lightening the wallets of Cardinal owners to the tune of 10 AMU or more. The pre-buy mechanic knew that. He did the pre-buy in one day and e-mailed me a detailed report the next day. The plane was mechanically solid, said he.

Just another data point.
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I'm confused. Did you actually tell the mechanic what to look for, where and what inspection methods? Cause, I did that with my guy, and it was skipped the first time. But if you just said 'look over the carrythought' or something like that, he's in the clear.

Of course, the other side of the coin says that we pay an A&P for his insight and his professional judgment. If this guy was in fact a Cardinal guru or something like that, he should have gone the extra mile because the potential failing was a deal breaker and was also well known in the industry.

I would have said for him to do a full and thorough inspection of all aspects of the carrythough, and give me a written report that says 'no corrosion', light corrosion', 'moderate corrosion', or 'run - Forrest - run!'

If I had bought a Bonanze with spar cracks and a year later faced a $9-12k bill to fix it, you can darn sure bet the A&P would be hearing from my counsel.
 
That won't catch it either. The mechanic must know where to look, which means he can't be looking for the first time.

bnt83 said:
Annuals DO NOT mean this would have been caught either. You want a corrosion free airplane? Insist the entire interior and all panels be removed on a prebuy. This rarely happens on annuals.
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docmirror said:
I'm confused. Did you actually tell the mechanic what to look for, where and what inspection methods? Cause, I did that with my guy, and it was skipped the first time. But if you just said 'look over the carrythought' or something like that, he's in the clear.
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He's in the clear regardless of what was said. Nothing was written down, it was all done on a handshake -- a VIRTUAL handshake at that (well, over the phone, but that's as close as I've ever gotten to him). No I didn't give him detailed instructions for what inspection methods to use, just to give everything (especially the carrythrough) a thorough looking-over.
Of course, the other side of the coin says that we pay an A&P for his insight and his professional judgment. If this guy was in fact a Cardinal guru or something like that, he should have gone the extra mile because the potential failing was a deal breaker and was also well known in the industry.
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He's a former Cardinal owner. Yes, he was well aware of the issue and the fact that it was something I was very concerned about. I certainly expected him to go the extra mile based on that, but the problem was that that was my expectation only. Obviously he had other ideas. He wasn't bound by any contract.
I would have said for him to do a full and thorough inspection of all aspects of the carrythough, and give me a written report that says 'no corrosion', light corrosion', 'moderate corrosion', or 'run - Forrest - run!'
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Yup. As I said, my instructions were definitely not detailed enough to stick him with any liability. I trusted him to use his judgement. Unfortunately, his judgement sucked (IMO).

I should also add that the moderators on CFO are of the opinion that the likelihood of finding the kind of corrosion my plane had is low enough that the kind of inspection needed to ensure that the problem doesn't exist fails their cost/benefit analysis. I disagree. My local A&P found my corrosion during the kind of first annual he does on all his customers' planes. If not for all the work he put in trying to dress it out, that first annual would only have cost a couple hundred more than the later ones. I don't think that's too much to invest to make sure your new plane is free of a well-known and VERY expen$ive problem (if you can even find the part -- I got lucky there too).
 
bnt83 said:
Annuals DO NOT mean this would have been caught either. You want a corrosion free airplane? Insist the entire interior and all panels be removed on a prebuy. This rarely happens on annuals.
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It was a 34 year old airplane. There was bound to be some corrosion somewhere. The spar carrythrough however is critical for airworthiness and corrosion there is a well-known gotcha for Cardinal owners. As I said in my previous post, my mechanic found the problem during a fairly routine first annual. Yes it was more thorough than he would have given a plane he knew well. Kind of like what he would have done for a pre-buy annual. :rolleyes:
 
azure said:
He's in the clear regardless of what was said. Nothing was written down, it was all done on a handshake -- a VIRTUAL handshake at that (well, over the phone, but that's as close as I've ever gotten to him). No I didn't give him detailed instructions for what inspection methods to use, just to give everything (especially the carrythrough) a thorough looking-over.

He's a former Cardinal owner. Yes, he was well aware of the issue and the fact that it was something I was very concerned about. I certainly expected him to go the extra mile based on that, but the problem was that that was my expectation only. Obviously he had other ideas. He wasn't bound by any contract.
.
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This is the exact situation where the pros get caught up. You told him, he also knew through his history, and not finding the corrosion borders on financial responsibility.

You both created an agency relationship where you relied on him for his expertise in the findings. He let you down. If it were something less critical like a precessing DG, or maybe a nose gear shimmy it wouldn't be an issue. But stuff like this is where a pro makes his bones, and a blunder like this is inexcusable in my industry, so it would be inexcusable in his as well.
 
wabower said:
That won't catch it either. The mechanic must know where to look, which means he can't be looking for the first time.
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Yeah it would have. The entire interior includes the headliner, which when removed reveals the entire aft and forward carry thru structure. Other well hidden areas in the C177 is the fresh air valve boxes in the wing roots and and CAT tubing that runs aft from the leading edge inlets to those boxes. Everything else is typical cessna, unless there's a mouse nest in a very atypical place.
 
I wasn't aware that the conversation was limited to 177's. If so, no my yob, mon.

bnt83 said:
Yeah it would have. The entire interior includes the headliner, which when removed reveals the entire aft and forward carry thru structure. Other well hidden areas in the C177 is the fresh air valve boxes in the wing roots and and CAT tubing that runs aft from the leading edge inlets to those boxes. Everything else is typical cessna, unless there's a mouse nest in a very atypical place.
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SkyHog said:
Unless "long story short" includes going to court and acting pro se to tell the judge that the plaintiff was an idiot, you did it the wrong way.

You produced the information in a report. You did your job, and the "customer" be damned.
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I am an A&P and an attorney. I would fix my own plane. I would not represent myself pro se unless the amount in controversy were less than the cost of an attorney, so that losing would cost less than hiring another attorney.
 
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