Prebuy -- Why Some Of Us Won't Do Them

weirdjim

weirdjim

Ejection Handle Pulled
Joined
Jul 8, 2008
Messages
4,171
Location
Grass Valley, CA (KGOO)
Display Name
Display name:
weirdjim
I'm sure I'm not the only A&P this has happened to, but just to give you all a taste of why some of us shy away from prebuys ... the fact is that a very few newbie owners hang us with everything that goes wrong with the airplane for years after the prebuy.

About 40 years ago, I got my shiny new A&P. Tried to do the right thing. Did several prebuys with no problems. THen comes along this joker I should have seen coming ... wanted to know why I charged so much for a prebuy, what could he do to get the price down ... you know the type.

Nice looking little 172. A bit long in the tooth (A model, but pretty well maintained). Paint, interior, panel all a 5. Airframe about a 7. Engine about a 7. He bought the airplane for a very good price.

About a year later he calls me up and said that the mechanic doing the annual found corrosion in the wings. I said so did I, during the prebuy, and there it is on the prebuy report. But, says he, my mechanic won't pass me on the annual unless I do something about the corrrosion. So do something, I says. He says, no, YOU do something about the corrosion and my lawyer says you are to blame.

Long story short, I wind up footing the bill for some corrosion work. A year LATER he has brake problems. Same story.

Sorry, folks, this story is more the truth than the exception. I love inspecting airplanes. I love working with owners. I love it even more when an owner that I've been working with for twenty years accumulates enough time to sit for (and pass) the A&P exam. That really makes my day.

But for prebuys with a person I've never worked with before? Sorry, no dice. It doesn't take but one or two jackasses to screw up the works.

I've only met ONE on owner-assisted annual (another engineer that thought he was God's gift to design) and followed me around telling me how this and that part were poorly designed and why did I do the inspection this way ... once was enough for that bozo, and I just walked away with no signature, no annual, no payment, and one p1$$ed off hifalutin' engineer.
:no:

Comments appreciated...

Jim
.
.
 
Wouldn't an appropriately worded contract have squashed the lawsuit about twenty seconds after it started?

I'm no fan of our current legal system in many ways, but it's definitely not optimal to try to do things with handshakes anymore. Sad but many fewer headaches.
 
Unless "long story short" includes going to court and acting pro se to tell the judge that the plaintiff was an idiot, you did it the wrong way.

You produced the information in a report. You did your job, and the "customer" be damned.
 
Yeah, I can't blame an A&P for not doing a pre-buy sometimes. But this one sounds like a 'more to the story' deal. If the plane was inspected and reported as having corrosion, then that is the end of that. I'm betting you certified it airworthy, and one year later it was found not airworthy, which scotches the first airworthy the time it was pre-buy inspected.

If put in the same spot, I think I would have written very carefully that you do NOT find the wings/plane airworthy, and further inspection of the corrosion must be undertaken. Sorry it happened that way, some owners are pukes.
 
denverpilot said:
Wouldn't an appropriately worded contract have squashed the lawsuit about twenty seconds after it started?

I'm no fan of our current legal system in many ways, but it's definitely not optimal to try to do things with handshakes anymore. Sad but many fewer headaches.
Click to expand...

If you can't do business on a handshake, why bother? I understand your point, I just think it's a sad statement about our society. I also understand Jim's point which is why I am very selective about the people I deal with, and the moment someone tries to dicker with me on cost of service, I refer them to someone else, it's the first and greatest indicator that you are dealing with an *******.
 
To some owners when it breaks, the last wrench that touched it is at fault.
 
docmirror said:
Yeah, I can't blame an A&P for not doing a pre-buy sometimes. But this one sounds like a 'more to the story' deal. If the plane was inspected and reported as having corrosion, then that is the end of that. I'm betting you certified it airworthy, and one year later it was found not airworthy, which scotches the first airworthy the time it was pre-buy inspected.

If put in the same spot, I think I would have written very carefully that you do NOT find the wings/plane airworthy, and further inspection of the corrosion must be undertaken. Sorry it happened that way, some owners are pukes.
Click to expand...

Can an A&P (without IA) "certify" an airplane airworthy?
 
docmirror said:
Yeah, I can't blame an A&P for not doing a pre-buy sometimes. But this one sounds like a 'more to the story' deal. If the plane was inspected and reported as having corrosion, then that is the end of that. I'm betting you certified it airworthy, and one year later it was found not airworthy, which scotches the first airworthy the time it was pre-buy inspected.

If put in the same spot, I think I would have written very carefully that you do NOT find the wings/plane airworthy, and further inspection of the corrosion must be undertaken. Sorry it happened that way, some owners are pukes.
Click to expand...

A pre-buy does not require an " Airworthy" statement, simply a list of discrepancies to who ever paid the bill.
 
Henning said:
If you can't do business on a handshake, why bother? I understand your point, I just think it's a sad statement about our society. I also understand Jim's point which is why I am very selective about the people I deal with, and the moment someone tries to dicker with me on cost of service, I refer them to someone else, it's the first and greatest indicator that you are dealing with an *******.
Click to expand...

Understood. And agreed. But there's more crazy people every day. Put it in writing during their ten minutes of sanity for the day and they have to go screw with someone else when their other six personalities make a visit or the Prozac wears off. Seriously.
 
docmirror said:
Yeah, I can't blame an A&P for not doing a pre-buy sometimes. But this one sounds like a 'more to the story' deal. If the plane was inspected and reported as having corrosion, then that is the end of that. I'm betting you certified it airworthy, and one year later it was found not airworthy, which scotches the first airworthy the time it was pre-buy inspected.

If put in the same spot, I think I would have written very carefully that you do NOT find the wings/plane airworthy, and further inspection of the corrosion must be undertaken. Sorry it happened that way, some owners are pukes.
Click to expand...

The way I did prebuys was a lot like a boat survey. I examined the airplane (or helicopter) that day, went through the log books that day and make a list of discrepancies as well as condition. I always began the prebuy sheet with the disclaimer that this does not constitute an inspection in accordance with an 14 CFR regulation and is simply a inspection of condition. I go further and make the statement that it's the buyers decision to make the purchase if he so decides and I make no judgement to buy or not to buy.

My last prebuy was for a Hughes 500C. The individual could not afford to operate the helicopter but felt he had to "have a turbine". I did the prebuy, had him sign a waiver that held me harmless if he purchased the helicopter, had several conversations with him to dissuade him from buying it, yet he bought it anyway.

Then buyers remorse set in. Next thing he finds a lawyer and starts lawsuits against the seller and against me for doing the prebuy. Claims I was "negligent" for not finding corrosion on the inside of one of the rotorblades. (the blade would have to be disassembled in a CRS for blades to find the corrosion).

Bottom line, the seller bought back the helicopter and the suits were dropped, but not before I spent about a $1000 on an attorney.

Never again. :no:
 
You find those kinds of a-holes in every business. But the % of people like that seems to be growing. In our veterinary hospital a person brought in a flea infested cat that was emaciated, dehydrated, anemic, had sores and scabs all over and wouldn't eat. We told him the first and cheapest thing we needed to do was treat for fleas and put the car on I'VE fluids. We also told him a blood transfusion was necessary. And we needed to do some diagnostics to see if the weight loss (21 #s down to 8#s in 6 months has cause liver damage (hepatic lipidosis) or any other problems. We gave him an estimate and he asked if he could pay us next month). We agreed to half up front and split the rest over two months. He predictably complained that all we cared about was money and didn't care about cats. He said his other vet always just gave him steroids and antibiotics and charged $50. Our office visit is $49. We didn't say, but thought hat was why he had a problem now. He declined everything and took the cat home. The cat died a few days late and he accuse us of refusing to treat We ga e him a free flea treatment) and he threatened to sue. He said he cat had never been sick before until he brought him to us and we must have poisoned him because the guy declined our outlandish estimate. He posted a horrible on-line complaint about us but as soon as we provided medical records and his signed waive of treatment it was removed.
The sad part about is is how common it is becoming.
Most of our customers love us but when we go home at nigh it is the jerks that keep us awake at nights.
Edit: I'm on an iPhone on a bicycle at the gym. Please ignore typos and spell check madness.
 
weirdjim said:
Long story short, I wind up footing the bill for some corrosion work. A year LATER he has brake problems. Same story.
Click to expand...

Is there malpractice insurance for A&P/IA's? (Real Estate agents call it Errors and Omissions) If you had such a policy, you could have called them up and let them deal with it.

I detest insurance companies more than anything, but for a jerk like this, it's the perfect solution.

Back in the 1980's I co-owned a computer consulting/repair business. We got a call from a video store because his computer wouldn't start. It turned out his hard drive was bad and he had no backup. I was able to recover his data, but not his software. He had sold a store across town that used the same system, so I drove across town and copied the software from the other system.

I was able to low-level format his hard drive (ST-225) and reload his system. I told him it was a temporary fix and that he needed a new hard drive.

He refused to pay the bill, claiming his brother-in-law could have fixed it in ten minutes using Norton Utilities.

I really enjoyed the call six months later when it happened again (because he never replace the hard drive). When asked, he told me his brother-in-law had already tried and failed with Norton Utilities.
 
Last edited:
Every business has the same situations, only they don't include airplanes. Landlords, tenants, car mechanics, electricians, plumbers, bankers.... All have stories about beat beats, whiners, non paying losers, and BS lawsuits. It is part of the cost of doing business. :dunno:

I have a old tenant suing me for $950 security deposit I kept. The law suit is over a year now, and I have spent $2500 in legal fees. :mad2:

Suck it up and move on. :yes:
 
I've never bothered with a prebuy. But then again, the situations I've been involved in with planes haven't warranted them.
 
I have been asking a lot of questions the last couple of weeks about buying and prebuys. I have mentioned that I am looking and am nervous about not knowing. I was going to start a thread this morning about liability, and how much does the mechanic or the prebuy inspector assume if something were to go wrong after the purchase is final, if any liability at all. What would be something you would hold the annual or the prebuy at fault for...again if anything?

thanks
 
What many people choose to do for a pre-buy is a full on annual. That tends to make sense, as then you have a fresh annual and any squawks are fixed.

To my mind, the only question is whether or not the person doing the pre-buy lied or purposely neglected to look for something. I'm only interested in stirring up anything if there was something that was obviously there and wasn't mentioned.
 
This is unfortunate that you had to deal with this stuff, but sometimes dealing with costumers is just a part of doing business. I don't know if its anything new (people being sued for negligence) but it does seem like its more prevalent. Seems like some type of waiver is in order for prebuys also. Its almost to the point now to where you are going to have to have owners waiver out all of the SB's. Just saying they have been informed and do not want to comply.
 
signu127 said:
I have been asking a lot of questions the last couple of weeks about buying and prebuys. I have mentioned that I am looking and am nervous about not knowing. I was going to start a thread this morning about liability, and how much does the mechanic or the prebuy inspector assume if something were to go wrong after the purchase is final, if any liability at all. What would be something you would hold the annual or the prebuy at fault for...again if anything?

thanks
Click to expand...

I would not expect the pre-buy mechanic to be held liable for the corrosion issue in the OP, especially if he disclosed it during the pre-buy. Must have had a really crappy lawyer. Frankly I wouldn't expect a pre-buy mechanic to be held liable for any sort of pre-existing condition, disclosed or not. I mean if he leaves a prop loose or something during the pre-buy, maybe. A pre-buy can be as thorough or not as the potential buyer wants/seller will allow.
 
bartmc said:
I would not expect the pre-buy mechanic to be held liable for the corrosion issue in the OP, especially if he disclosed it during the pre-buy. Must have had a really crappy lawyer.
Click to expand...

I suspect the cost to repair the issue was less than the cost to hire a lawyer to take the case.
 
Steve Foley said:
I suspect the cost to repair the issue was less than the cost to hire a lawyer to take the case.
Click to expand...

And since when has offering to pay off screwballs stopped there?

I do have one question though: if you don't do pre-buys for people you haven't worked with before, how is someone supposed to start off with their first plane?
 
Bart makes an excellent point, I don't have a FAA approved prebuy checklist. I do exactly what the customer wants me to, nothing more, nothing less.

I LIKE to use the annual checklist, as at the end I can then honestly say that I have inspected the airframe IAW an annual, blah blah blah. However that only happens when the customer says "annual it," usually after agreeing to buy. Otherwise the owner just gets a log entry stating just what I did, listing things like removed inspection panels, replaced oil filter etc.
 
bartmc said:
I would not expect the pre-buy mechanic to be held liable for the corrosion issue in the OP, especially if he disclosed it during the pre-buy. Must have had a really crappy lawyer. Frankly I wouldn't expect a pre-buy mechanic to be held liable for any sort of pre-existing condition, disclosed or not. I mean if he leaves a prop loose or something during the pre-buy, maybe. A pre-buy can be as thorough or not as the potential buyer wants/seller will allow.
Click to expand...

Agreed...I would think it would raise a red flag if the seller had any input in what he wouldn't allow.
 
Jet centers have different "levels" of pre-buys and the cheap ones are not much more than a very general servicing and walk around kinda thing. Very few buys are completed in conjunction with a heavy inspection where the interior is out and wings are opened.
 
Most of the prebuy inspections that I have done fall into two types, Junk:no: or nice:wink2:. Those who show up with Junk, you can tell from 20 feet it's going to be junk so a quick look to comfirm that it's not a dimond in the rough and inform the buyer to look elseware. I do not charge for looking at junk only good clean aircraft that I can recommend to the buyer. The prebuy inspections depend on the condition of the aircraft I will stop the prebuy should I determin it is junk and inform the buyer to run away:nonod:. I inform the buyer in private of the condition and some sellers have been unhappy with my view:mad: of their pride and joy buy I work for the buyer not the seller. I have had this procedure for over 40 years and never had a unhappy buyer, several grumpy sellers.
 
denverpilot said:
I'm no fan of our current legal system in many ways, but it's definitely not optimal to try to do things with handshakes anymore. Sad but many fewer headaches.
Click to expand...

That is the ONLY way I'll do business. If I can't work with honorable people I just go somewhere else.
 
weirdjim said:
That is the ONLY way I'll do business. If I can't work with honorable people I just go somewhere else.
Click to expand...
How do you know they are honorable until after they don't sue you or make your life miserable?
 
The third plane I bought was an older Bo out of CA. I called around and got a reputable guy recommended to go look it over. I gave him three specific things to check, and then advised him to use his best judgment on other stuff that an A&P who has knowledge of the plane to check on. I asked for a detailed inspection of the spar carrythrough asm in the corners where the Bonanza society was worried about cracks(now and AD), the ruddervator horns, and I asked for a check of the warm oil pressure.

The inspection was done, and I got his bill and looked it over. He didn't know it but one of my best friends lives only 10 minutes from the airport, and although he's not a pilot or mechanic, I asked him to hang around and let me know what was done. The report said there were no cracks in the spar carrythrough and the warm oil pressure was 40PSI. The hours were 5.5 for the A&P and 2.5 for the assistant. I called my buddy and asked him how long there were out there. It was less than three hours, and the assistant just dropped the A&P off, then picked him up later.

The front seats never came out of the plane, and they rolled it out and ran the engine for less than 5 minutes before leaving. How does one do a detailed inspection of the spar without removing the seats? How does one determine the warm oil pressure by running the engine for 2-3 minutes? Why was I billed for 5.5 hours when the got to the hanger at 9 and left before lunch? Why am I being billed 2.5 hours for the assistant when he just helped roll the plane out, stand there, and then roll it back in?

The A&P dropped it to 4 hours billable and 1 hour of assistant. I told him the check would arrive when I had pictures of the spar area, and the oil temp up to 200F with the pressure showing. He made a second trip and I got what I needed, and paid the bill. It happens both ways out there.
 
docmirror said:
The third plane I bought was an older Bo out of CA. I called around and got a reputable guy recommended to go look it over. I gave him three specific things to check, and then advised him to use his best judgment on other stuff that an A&P who has knowledge of the plane to check on. I asked for a detailed inspection of the spar carrythrough asm in the corners where the Bonanza society was worried about cracks(now and AD), the ruddervator horns, and I asked for a check of the warm oil pressure.

The inspection was done, and I got his bill and looked it over. He didn't know it but one of my best friends lives only 10 minutes from the airport, and although he's not a pilot or mechanic, I asked him to hang around and let me know what was done. The report said there were no cracks in the spar carrythrough and the warm oil pressure was 40PSI. The hours were 5.5 for the A&P and 2.5 for the assistant. I called my buddy and asked him how long there were out there. It was less than three hours, and the assistant just dropped the A&P off, then picked him up later.

The front seats never came out of the plane, and they rolled it out and ran the engine for less than 5 minutes before leaving. How does one do a detailed inspection of the spar without removing the seats? How does one determine the warm oil pressure by running the engine for 2-3 minutes? Why was I billed for 5.5 hours when the got to the hanger at 9 and left before lunch? Why am I being billed 2.5 hours for the assistant when he just helped roll the plane out, stand there, and then roll it back in?

The A&P dropped it to 4 hours billable and 1 hour of assistant. I told him the check would arrive when I had pictures of the spar area, and the oil temp up to 200F with the pressure showing. He made a second trip and I got what I needed, and paid the bill. It happens both ways out there.
Click to expand...

With the tech available nowdays, I'd be texting you the pictures as I was doing the inspection.
 
bnt83 said:
With the tech available nowdays, I'd be texting you the pictures as I was doing the inspection.
Click to expand...

That's because you're a reputable guy. I just happened to get a jerk. Suppose I had proceeded based on his work, and on the way home found the oil pressure down in the red, and then found cracks at the first annual? Would the A&P have been responsible for his mistakes?

Trust - but verify.
 
RotorAndWing said:
The way I did prebuys was a lot like a boat survey. I examined the airplane (or helicopter) that day, went through the log books that day and make a list of discrepancies as well as condition. I always began the prebuy sheet with the disclaimer that this does not constitute an inspection in accordance with an 14 CFR regulation and is simply a inspection of condition. I go further and make the statement that it's the buyers decision to make the purchase if he so decides and I make no judgement to buy or not to buy.
Click to expand...

And that's the way our shop handles them. It's not even signed off as any type of inspection. We prefer the word "evaluation" as that is what we are doing for our customer. They are given notification of any condition, but the ultimate decision to purchase is theirs alone.
 
JOhnH said:
How do you know they are honorable until after they don't sue you or make your life miserable?
Click to expand...

There are clues in their demeanor, body and spoken language. It often also comes down to who referred them.
 
Norman said:
And that's the way our shop handles them. It's not even signed off as any type of inspection. We prefer the word "evaluation" as that is what we are doing for our customer. They are given notification of any condition, but the ultimate decision to purchase is theirs alone.
Click to expand...

Exactly.

But it won't stop a slimy bottom feeder lawyer out to make a few bucks from crying "negligence". :nonod:
 
JOhnH said:
How do you know they are honorable until after they don't sue you or make your life miserable?
Click to expand...

Honorable people have no issues with written contracts that clearly define each party's role and responsibility. It's the "handshake" ones who are the problem.
 
weirdjim said:
So do something, I says. He says, no, YOU do something about the corrosion and my lawyer says you are to blame.

Long story short, I wind up footing the bill for some corrosion work. A year LATER he has brake problems. Same story.

...

Comments appreciated...
Click to expand...

And when the big kid ahead you in the lunch line at school said you'd be paying for his lunch... did you?

A certain four letter word followed by "OFF" was invented for a reason. It sounds to me like you just caved to a bully... or did he get a judgement against you that I missed?

Let me ask you this... have you stopped doing annuals also because you are afraid you'll miss something? You know you might. I'm not sure what is the difference here. I carry error's and omissions insurance in my business and I can't imagine it's alot different in the AP business. If not, try it... gives you a bit more freedom with that "OFF" word when you are getting unfairly shook down by a bad customer. ;)

This is what I share with my AP's who do prebuys for me. All I asked them for is a recommendation NOT to buy. I and I alone make the decision to buy. And in the plane's I have bought.... I've used the same guy doing the prebuy and we convert it into an annual.... then and only then is the AP/IA on the hook for airworthiness.
 
weirdjim said:
Let me make a wild guess. You're a lawyer, aren't you?
Click to expand...

No... just the school of hard knocks and lots of experience. In business deals, the two types I fear most ethically are evangelical religious types and the handshake types. Almost to a one... these are the types that have given me problems.. buyer or seller. They need to have the shortest leash.

I mean think about it... if your handshake is so good... then why wouldn't you bond it with a contract when dealing with someone for the first time?

This isn't a personal attack on you or anyone... but if I don't know someone first hand... why should I trust them? Trust from me is earned.... it isn't an entitlement and I sure wouldn't be using "body language" as a measure of trust, else I would have had numeruous bad deals with large chested woman :rolleyes:

My regular vendors.... no contracts... handshakes. But that trust is earned. It's those first deals that set the tone... and I don't like to leave that to chance.


P.S. I had some of your gear in my last airplane. Nice stuff... noticed most of it isn't on your web site anymore.... is it still available? (intercoms etc)
 
Last edited:
Jeff K said:
I sure wouldn't be using "body language" as a measure of trust, else I would have had numeruous bad deals with large chested woman :rolleyes:

I just finished digging my way out of a very expensive bad deal with a large chested woman ... and it was SORT OF a handshake deal ("marry me honey and we'll work together forever ..."). :mad2:

P.S. I had some of your gear in my last airplane. Nice stuff... noticed most of it isn't on your web site anymore.... is it still available? (intercoms etc)

Well, yes and no. The handshake deal to keep RST going together lasted not quite six months into a 17 year deal, and the only part I could reasonably keep going by myself and do what was necessary to keep food on the table dwindled down to a couple of antennas.

The current "handshake deal" has been going very well for not quite two years and we are slowly ... EVER so slowly ... rebuilding the company bit by bit into what it once was. :yes:

Then again, I'm told that every person is entitled to one massive screw-up in their lives but that it will be an expensive screw-up. True. :nono:

Jim
Click to expand...
.....
 
Jeff K said:
Honorable people have no issues with written contracts that clearly define each party's role and responsibility. It's the "handshake" ones who are the problem.
Click to expand...

^If I hear this, I run, because anybody who says it is usually up to no good.

You want 1-2 page documentation of scope & price, great. If it's a semi-routine repair and your "contract" is 10 pages long with 5 of it being backside fine print, I'm wondering why you are hiding behind your lawyers.
 
You must log in or register to reply here.
Back
Top