Prebuy next 2 days - help me with cold feet

Caramon13 said:
Afraid I have to disagree with everything you just said. Airplanes don't gain value and its the worst idea ever to use them as investments. If anything, they may RETAIN their value. However, that's only IF you are diligent with maintenance and happen to buy a model that is popular. Buy a $100K plane and don't maintain or fly it and watch it turn into a $20K pile of barely usable garbage over time.

The only way aircraft go up in value is if you add something to them that makes that plane different then every other plane out there with the same make/model. And usually the value increase is not even close to the amount invested to do the upgrade.

The really crazy people will put 14K worth of upgrades in a plane and try to sell it for 14K more. No chance.

Expect to lose money on a plane, they are not an investment, they are either a tool or a toy.
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Your crazy... LOL!
Maybe I just buy the right stuff. I agree you can't dump a ton of cash in a junky plane and expect to make a profit. I buy nice stuff, mainly aerobatic and biplanes and have doubled my money on a couple. Come see me if you need some classes on making money :)
 
pigpenracing said:
Your crazy... LOL!
Maybe I just buy the right stuff. I agree you can't dump a ton of cash in a junky plane and expect to make a profit. I buy nice stuff, mainly aerobatic and biplanes and have doubled my money on a couple. Come see me if you need some classes on making money :)
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Everything costs something. Now I have no doubt that by marketing a plane properly, cleaning up a few things on it and then reselling it to the right crowd can earn you a profit, but the AVERAGE consumer doesn't do that. It sounds like you do this for a living but an aircraft by itself does NOT appreciate in value over time.

A 100K aircraft isn't going to all of a sudden double in value over the next 10 years. If anything it's going to be down, quite a bit.

Holding on to a WACO for 10 years for example may actually hurt you if there isn't an audience to actually be interested in that plane 10 years from now.

Flipping a plane is not investing, it's just a way to make money if you are skilled enough to manage costs, which it sounds like you are so congrats on that :).
 
455 Bravo Uniform said:
Being honest - I struggle with Luke 12:33.
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I wouldn't struggle with that. Look at that as a specific instruction to a specific person at a specific time and place. Jesus didn't tell everyone to do that. The disciples didn't tell people to do that in Acts when people were converted. That was the Holy Spirit's instruction to that man for whatever particular problems he needed to deal with in relation to his money. What He tells you to do is what's important.
 
pigpenracing said:
Airplanes gain value...
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No aircraft gains value. You must be talking about a $30k plane you sell for $33k after putting $4k in it (insurance, hangar/ramp/fuel/maint). The fact remains an aircraft is a luxury item with no intrinsic value other than pride in ownership. They cost far more than a car in regard to transportation. They are more expensive than buying an airline ticket to get to any destination you can reach using a personal plane.
 
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Caramon13 said:
Everything costs something. Now I have no doubt that by marketing a plane properly, cleaning up a few things on it and then reselling it to the right crowd can earn you a profit, but the AVERAGE consumer doesn't do that. It sounds like you do this for a living but an aircraft by itself does NOT appreciate in value over time.

A 100K aircraft isn't going to all of a sudden double in value over the next 10 years. If anything it's going to be down, quite a bit.

Holding on to a WACO for 10 years for example may actually hurt you if there isn't an audience to actually be interested in that plane 10 years from now.

Flipping a plane is not investing, it's just a way to make money if you are skilled enough to manage costs, which it sounds like you are so congrats on that :).
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I don't sell planes for a living.... Everything I buy is 100% ready to go and if it is not immaculate I don't buy it. Like I said I buy airplanes that I like and want to keep. Most of my planes have sold and never went on the market, people just walk up and offer to buy my stuff. I am talking about Pitts, Christen Eagles, I did really good on a Staudacher S-300D. I am good at negotiating and buy my stuff for the right price. If someone asks if it is for sale I say no... If they keep begging I throw a number out 2 times what I have in it or more. On several occasions I got a deposit on the spot.
You can't do this with a 172 or Cherokee. The planes have to be unique and one of a kind. I bought a mint Cessna 140 for Christmas. As soon as I got home with it a local offered me $15,000 more than I paid. I turned it down because I like it and don't have to sell it, my son will learn in it. I have a guy looking for a Pitts and ask if I wanted to sell my Model 12. I told him my price and told him it is firm so don't waste my time unless he has $195,000. He cam out 3 times to look at it. He is a rich arrogant attorney and I do not like him. Guess what. Its not for sale to him anymore. I will sell it to someone else but I don't need his attitude or his money :) Man this stuff can be fun...
 
You know what happens to renters? They stop flying, because it's too hard to have to schedule your flying in advance and it's very hard to use the airplane for travel. You wind up just flying locally, and over time you do so less and less. Eventually you start losing proficiency, and flying becomes uncomfortable, so you stop. Assuming you can truly afford this and that's what you want to do, do it. If you buy a good plane and keep it up, if you change your mind you can sell it, there's always a good market for Skylanes.

I know it's tough to cough up that kind of money. My wife and I bought a boat last year, and on the way down to the boat show we were both silent, because this was a big step. Could we afford it? Yes, absolutely, the boat cost about two percent of our net worth, but it was still hard to part with that much money. Has it been worth it? Yes, 100% yes. It's a much nicer boat than the ones we could rent, and we can come and go as we please instead of having to deal with the rental operation's hours. Would it be cheaper to rent? Sure, but that's like saying fast food is cheaper than a nice steak dinner, they're not the same experience.
 
citizen5000 said:
No aircraft gains value. You must be talking about a $30k plane you sell for $33k after putting $4k in it (insurance, hangar/ramp/fuel/maint). The fact remains an aircraft is a luxury item with no intrinsic value other than pride in ownership. They cost far more than a car in regard to transportation. They are more expensive than buying an airline ticket to get to any destination you can reach using a personal plane. Even as a business asset a plane is costly and luxury oriented. No one should own a plane under a false prestenses.
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Your crazy!
Just because you don't know what your doing doesn't mean others don't.
 
citizen5000 said:
... The fact remains an aircraft is a luxury item with no intrinsic value other than pride in ownership. They cost far more than a car in regard to transportation. They are more expensive than buying an airline ticket to get to any destination you can reach using a personal plane. Even as a business asset a plane is costly and luxury oriented. No one should own a plane under a false prestenses.
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As has been said before, there are many places where an aircraft is as useful as a pickup truck. I was born and raised in Alaska and have been an owner or co-owner of some airplane or another since I learned to fly at 17. In Alaska, 90% of your destinations are completely off the road system and commercial carriers are expensive and not as frequent as you would like. Also, probably 70% of the destinations don't have scheduled service, so you need to either charter, or fly yourself.

Every aircraft I ever owned brought at least its original purchase price. In some cases it was 2 to 3 times the purchase price. I have owned boats, motorcycles, snowmachines, cars, trucks, etc. and lost money on them all, the only equipment I can think of that holds value nearly as well as an aircraft is a well maintained farm tractor :).

As far as the "intrinsic value" of aircraft.... it FLIES. None of that other stuff flies.

Yes, you can rent, but everywhere I ever rented, about the only thing available was C172s and 4 seat Pipers. If you buy, you get access to what you want to fly, not what is available.
 
Damn...what a roller coaster ride.
Even on other forums (so I hear :)) every other post is back and forth.
yes, just do it.
no never buy a plane!
you only live once!
it's cheaper to rent!
Yes!
No!
yes no yes no ahhhhhhhhhh!!!
 
Skyrys62 said:
Damn...what a roller coaster ride.
Even on other forums (so I hear :)) every other post is back and forth.
yes, just do it.
no never buy a plane!
you only live once!
it's cheaper to rent!
Yes!
No!
yes no yes no ahhhhhhhhhh!!!
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Well it's going to be cheaper to rent in 99% of cases.

But for some people buying gives them options that renting doesn't, and those options have value to those people.
 
FormerHangie said:
You know what happens to renters? They stop flying, because it's too hard to have to schedule your flying in advance and it's very hard to use the airplane for travel. You wind up just flying locally, and over time you do so less and less. Eventually you start losing proficiency, and flying becomes uncomfortable, so you stop. Assuming you can truly afford this and that's what you want to do, do it. If you buy a good plane and keep it up, if you change your mind you can sell it, there's always a good market for Skylanes.

I know it's tough to cough up that kind of money. My wife and I bought a boat last year, and on the way down to the boat show we were both silent, because this was a big step. Could we afford it? Yes, absolutely, the boat cost about two percent of our net worth, but it was still hard to part with that much money. Has it been worth it? Yes, 100% yes. It's a much nicer boat than the ones we could rent, and we can come and go as we please instead of having to deal with the rental operation's hours. Would it be cheaper to rent? Sure, but that's like saying fast food is cheaper than a nice steak dinner, they're not the same experience.
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Yep, agree. I haven't flown in about 3 months because rentals suck around here. Between not being available, the cost, the uncertainty of showing up and being told some moron had a prop strike and now the plane is down for 3 months...etc.

I don't know if I would have kept flying my Cherokee, but I'd like to think I would. There's a few trips that have come up that it would have just been fun to go via small plane then ride the giant spam can in the sky.

I've let all my currencies lapse because it's just not worth it to me right now. One day...
 
GRG55 said:
There is no justification other than self indulgence owning a good suit when a pair of old jeans and a tee shirt can clothe you just fine.
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Or for that matter, there is no justification for even wearing clothes in the first....no, wait, strike that. PLEASE wear clothes...

Seriously, everyone says airplanes cost money. They might be onto something. Ok, accept that and move on to enjoying the owning part. Like every other part of life, you will have good events and bad events. The secret likes not in what happens to you, but in how you react to it. Decide now how you will react if the unthinkable happens and strive for the positive. It will still suck, but you'll be less unhappy about it.

I hope that ends my Tony Robbins channeling for the day
 
Meh - you only live once (and the money sure as heck isn't going with you.) Buy the plane. Do you due diligence and determine what's important for you. But know that it's pretty unlikely that you'll make any money on an aircraft. Treat it like a toy and its associated expenses, and you'll be fine. If you've ever owned a motorcycle (that you didn't depend on for daily transportation), and it'll be like that.

But to calm you "cold feet", here are reasons (at least in my mind, and stated by others above) to buy:
  • Can't find a rental in your area
  • Don't like the rental in your area
  • Rental is never availble when you want to fly
  • Someone is always watching when you fly and when the plane comes back (no over-nighters somewhere)
  • Have a mistrust of how the plane was treated or if all squawks were reported or fixed
If any of those resonate, then get your own plane. Yes, it'll cost more. But you'll also fly more, worry less, have more fun, and you will know where the plane is at all times. Plus it's just freaking cool to say, "It's my plane." :p
 
For me I did get cold feet, but that was mostly due to a leaky seal on the door. But anyway. I moved to somewhere with 0 rentals nearby, an hour drive away I can rent a 172. So if I want a plane I have to own it. Now, why do I want a plane:
1. Can fly to customers on the west coast.
2. Can fly to the big airport(tm) in 40 minutes instead of a 3-4 hour drive.
3. Can fly somewhere with cellular service and camp and do my job whenever I want.

Only problem right now is there are no hangars at my home field so I'm based about an hour away. There's no way I'm leaving a plane outside on the Oregon coast.
 
A LOT of those reasons resonate with me.

I just got back from the shop (woke up at 5a, 2hr drive, got back to hotel at 6p).

Plane has better bones than I expected, but looks a little more worn than I expected. One is cosmetic, the other was a deal killer.

Paint could use buffing (free by me) and cracked plastic fairings could be replaced ($ to buy). Avionics work and are what I wanted. Interior could use a good scrub and touch ups (me).

Waiting on a list of to-dos and costs from the shop, then forward must-haves to seller and see what happens.

Yes, all y'all are kwazy. That's a fact.
 
455 Bravo Uniform said:
Being honest - I struggle with Luke 12:33. After a life changing event in 2003 and 36 years old, I "discovered" Christ. The next breath you and I take is a luxury; for others it seems a curse and they can't wait for it to be their last. It's all perspective.
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My wife and I are taking a Dave Ramsey course called Legacy. I suggest it to you. I'm not really a Dave Ramsey guy, but I believe the principles taught in FPU (the class before for Legacy) can help people avoid being destroyed by debt and money.

He has very insightful things to say about that passage in Luke (and others).

We're only 1/2 way through the course, but already I highly recommend it.
 
455 Bravo Uniform said:
A LOT of those reasons resonate with me.

I just got back from the shop (woke up at 5a, 2hr drive, got back to hotel at 6p).

Plane has better bones than I expected, but looks a little more worn than I expected. One is cosmetic, the other was a deal killer.

Paint could use buffing (free by me) and cracked plastic fairings could be replaced ($ to buy). Avionics work and are what I wanted. Interior could use a good scrub and touch ups (me).

Waiting on a list of to-dos and costs from the shop, then forward must-haves to seller and see what happens.

Yes, all y'all are kwazy. That's a fact.
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All that is admirable that you'd want to do the work yourself, but keep in mind, a plane ain't a car. There are things you CAN do to it and others you can't (without A&P signoff). Know what you can do and what you can before you get into a bad situation.

The FAA lets owners do a lot of things if they are properly certified as a private pilot for example, but the DIY guys out there that buy a plane and don't pay attention to the "when I can and when I can't" rules of FAR Part 43 do so at their own peril.
 
Having to hangar, insure and fly the plane during ownership pretty much makes sure you wont make money on an airplane. Now if you have your own grass runway and can stick it in a barn, dont insure it and get lucky, maybe. There are a lot of guys around that say "I made A LOT OF MONEY on buying and selling MY AIRPLANE". Anyone can say that. Even they may THINK its true. It probably is in some minority of cases. The ones that can do that are mechanics. And they BUY CHEAP!
 
danhagan said:
Just remember, in all three situations, several other guys have been in it before:eek::eek::confused::confused::confused:
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headslap.gif
 
yetti said:
Can't fly your 401K
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But you can fly your 401k away.
I don't think that's going to be the case here though, just sayin....
Moderation is the key. I stode that off the internet! Ok, not really. I just heard it my whole life from over-doer's preaching what they need to learn.

but I digress...
Anyhoo, I was talking to my girlfriend on the phone about how fireworks are already on the shelves again.
Seems like yesterday we were setting some off.
I made the comment "time is flying"!....then I laughed and said "maybe I should be too"
She said well you'll get places faster.
Then I said, "Yeah now that I'm getting old I don't have much time left. I need to get places faster"
So now I have my excuse to get that plane.

in moderation of course...
 
In all seriousness, I think most (if not all) of us on this forum have been lucky in that we have good health and the means to fly. But we already know that health deteriorates with age, and the older we get, the less time we have to fly. Essentially the odds are stacked against us as we get older that we'll be able to fly. Thus, if you can fly now, why not? And if you can afford to buy your own plane, why not fly more while you can?

Oy, now that I've depressed myself, I'll toss back two hard ciders and self ground for 8 hours...
 
Bill and Melinda Gates have his and her 777s. It's all about means.
 
Fearless Tower said:
I don't know about cold feet, but after I bought the Beech 18, I did pause and ask myself: "What have I just done?"
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You know, I meant to ask you how that's going. That is quite a hefty personal machine.
Congrats!!
 
I'm in my third year of ownership of my C-182. I had cold feet also, and my freakin awesome wife was the one that kept encouraging me to go for it. I don't know if I would have done it without her. We don't have a lot of money, so I was afraid I may put a financial strain on the family, but I was barely doing any flying because renting airplanes really sucks. So we bought the thing, and I'm glad I did. We can fly anytime we want, and it hasn't put us in the poor house yet. I consider that a win.
 
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OkieFlyer said:
I'm in my third of ownership of my C-182. I had cold feet also, and my freakin awesome wife was the one that kept encouraging me to go for it. I don't know if I would have done it without her. We don't have a lot of money, so I was afraid I may put a financial strain on the family, but I was barely doing any flying because renting airplanes really sucks. So we bought the thing, and I'm glad I did. We can fly anytime we want, and it hasn't put us in the poor house yet. I consider that a win.
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I also have an awesome wife, Andrew. She is the one who insisted we buy our current airplane. And, I agree -- renting sucks :). And, Skyrys62, the step into any airplane really cuts down travel time. You don't have to buy a Bo.
 
OkieFlyer said:
I'm in my third of ownership of my C-182.
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You do know you don't have to sell it and buy it back every time the registration comes due, right? :)

(Hahaha. I'm thinking of a certain person here who shall remain unnamed, who sold their airplane to themselves because they were late re-registering and knew the paperwork wouldn't get done in time, but a sale re-starts the clock instantly, so... form an LLC, sell airplane for $1 to LLC, new registration complete! ROFLMAO... I thought it was somewhat brilliant really...)
 
Kritchlow said:
You know, I meant to ask you how that's going. That is quite a hefty personal machine.
Congrats!!
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No regrets. I love the Twin Beech. Of all the airplanes I've flown, it's honestly the most enjoyable airplane I've ever flown. Maintenance hasn't been bad. No worse than a pressurized piston twin.

Only real complaint is the fuel burn for speed. 45 gph for 150 KTAS isn't exactly efficient. So I don't fly it as much as I flew the Baron.
 
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