PPL checkride requirements question:

TCABM said:
you could proactively call the FSDO and get the answer from an authoritative source.
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Then you can call another FSDO and get a different answer from another authoritative source.

If you're going to call anybody, call the DPE. He might be right, he might be wrong, but he knows what he'll accept and what he won't.

If you don't like the DPE's answer then you have to decide which is easier; changing the DPE's mind or getting an updated endorsement.

My opinion, which means absolutely nothing, is that you need to be able to show the solo endorsements under which all of your logged solo time was flown.
 
StraightnLevel said:
Yes, and a refusal to perform a checkride based on something that is not a requirement will result in an immediate call to the FSDO. Nobody involved in the process wants that to happen.
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Threatening the DPE with a call to the FSDO is certain to have undesirable results, whether you're correct or not.
 
OB342 briefly discussed this briefly and orthagonally on ep 342 @ Airventure. I’m about a cocktail in, so the time mark is somewhere in the first half of the show. Info in the show notes.

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In plain language, “simple scenario, all things being equal,” the student pilot applicant is not technically required to possess a “current” solo endorsement for the purpose of the Private Pilot practical test.

If the student pilot applicant flies solo to the evaluator’s location (somewhat common for my applicants) the solo endorsement is, of course, required for that operation. Same goes for flying “home” in case a Notice of Disapproval is issued.

14 CFR 61.47 provides a means for an otherwise non-certificated/rated pilot to act as PIC for the duration of the flight portion of the practical test; the evaluator is not a flight crewmember and is therefore a passenger; the applicant is not flying solo, therefore a solo endorsement is not required.

As a practical matter it’s a little uncommon to find a well-prepared Private Pilot applicant to present themselves for the practical test with an out-of-date solo endorsement, but it’s possible.
 
Lindberg said:
Threatening the DPE with a call to the FSDO is certain to have undesirable results, whether you're correct or not.
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I encourage my applicants to get the FSDO involved any time there’s a disagreement on a matter of procedure, regulations, eligibility, etc. Everything should be done in the “sunlight” and I welcome the opportunity to improve my understanding on those matters. No repercussions, no adjustment to my impartiality. I mean that quite sincerely.

That said - haven’t had any takers after some unknown hundreds of practical tests and administrative events since 2019.
 
Having a current solo endorsement is a double hedge. First, you can go work on what you fail on the check ride immediately afterward. Second, you can have the conversation with the examiner about what has to be in your logbook in order to fly with absolutely no doubt that you have what you need to fly with the examiner that day.

It’s also a third hedge if your examiner shows up wearing a parachute.

I would just get re-endorsed. It’s a pain but a minor one relative to many of the things you’ll have to do before kicking tires and lighting fires on flights after you pass the check ride.
 
iamtheari said:
I would just get re-endorsed. It’s a pain
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Is it really though? I asked before but the OP didn't clarify why it was such a hassle. If I had a student who I'd signed off for a checkride, I would have no hesitation in signing another solo endorsement. Just see me next time I'm at the airport, or heck, I'll email or text you an endorsement - or if you're using an online logbook I'll just go in and do it now. Be done in what, a minute?

Now if the hassle is because the CFI moved on and is out of contact flying for Botswana Air or something like that, okay, but there's no discussion of the "why" it's a hassle.
 
RussR said:
Is it really though?
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OP suggests that it is. That's enough for me to accept that his situation makes it a pain. Maybe the CFI signed him off for the checkride and then moved to Aruba. Maybe they just live in different towns. Maybe the CFI's pen ran out of ink. Whatever the reason, I think it's easier to overcome the hassle than to add a potential worry at the checkride and beyond.
 
iamtheari said:
OP suggests that it is. That's enough for me to accept that his situation makes it a pain. Maybe the CFI signed him off for the checkride and then moved to Aruba. Maybe they just live in different towns. Maybe the CFI's pen ran out of ink. Whatever the reason, I think it's easier to overcome the hassle than to add a potential worry at the checkride and beyond.
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It really sounds like the student just being difficult. Using an efb of any flavor as most do? Do it electronically. Don't need a pen. Don't need to even be present. Just a wifi connection. I fail to see how this is a burden in any way. Unless you have the most surly CFI ever.

Probably not needed. But it takes nothing to make sure it's current.
 
Racerx said:
It really sounds like the student just being difficult.
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I don't know if I'm willing to go quite that far (yet). Based on this below, it could just be a misunderstanding of the requirements, OR a (presumably) unreasonable CFI or school policy:

StraightnLevel said:
Given the time, money, weather limitations, and coincident CFI and plane availability to get the required flight accomplished, it's a real pain. We're talking a couple of days here, not months. [FWIW, weather in our area has been abysmal since Beryl came through, so flight time is at a premium as everyone is trying to make up for lost time.]
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The OP seems to be under the impression that to get another solo endorsement it will require a flight. If the CFI or school is requiring it, then that's their policy, not the FARs.
 
RussR said:
If I had a student who I'd signed off for a checkride, I would have no hesitation in signing another solo endorsement.
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If I signed off a student for a checkride, I'd be available for all sorts of last-minute problems, let alone a simple endorsement if needed.
 
Ryan F. said:
As a practical matter it’s a little uncommon to find a well-prepared Private Pilot applicant to present themselves for the practical test with an out-of-date solo endorsement, but it’s possible.
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Is it fair to say that it's not uncommon for a commercial multi checkride where the pilot never actually soloed?
 
midlifeflyer said:
Is it fair to say that it's not uncommon for a commercial multi checkride where the pilot never actually soloed?
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Most CP-AMEL add-on applicants never flew the multiengine airplane without an instructor, and therefore never needed a solo endorsement. I assume that’s what you’re alluding to? Or are you getting into PDPIC for an initial commercial pilot with multiairplane airplane land practical test? Same either way, I suppose…
 
Ryan F. said:
Most CP-AMEL add-on applicants never flew the multiengine airplane without an instructor, and therefore never needed a solo endorsement. I assume that’s what you’re alluding to? Or are you getting into PDPIC for an initial commercial pilot with multiairplane airplane land practical test? Same either way, I suppose…
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By my (and the DPEs I used when I was doing a lot of ME training) reading, a 61.31d endorsement is still required for the checkride. 61.31d is required for the pilot to act as PIC, which they are on the checkride.
 
RussR said:
By my (and the DPEs I used when I was doing a lot of ME training) reading, a 61.31d endorsement is still required for the checkride. 61.31d is required for the pilot to act as PIC, which they are on the checkride.
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Why would it be required for a commercial practical test and not private pilot?
 
Yes. Two actually. And not just solo, but solo X-country, specifically to the aiport at which you are taking your checkride. And, here's the kicker...one for the way home should you have an unfavorable result. Make sense?
 
Q? Does a student need a solo endorsement for a practical test? The answer is Maybe. If the student must fly from point A to point B where the test is conducted, they need a current solo endorsement. They also need the proper endorsements to legally fly to point B.

The reason the do not need a solo endorsement if the test originates at point A is the flight is carrying the administrator.
a) “Administrator” means the Administrator of the Federal Aviation Agency or any person to whom he has delegated his authority in the matter concerned.
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Clip4 said:
It’s page 4 of this link that should give some Part 61 CFIs pause. And yes, the DPEs are being told to check for this.https://www.faasafety.gov/files/eve...19665/FAA_DPE_AIRMN_CERT_INFO_FEB_2023_v2.pdf
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Help me understand what this means vis-a-vis solo XC flights? The requirement for PPL SC solo includes:

"One solo cross country flight of 150 nautical miles total distance, with full-stop landings at three points, and one segment of the flight consisting of a straight-line distance of more than 50 nautical miles between the takeoff and landing locations"

Yet, Page 4/5 of the linked presentation seems to say that this should not be entered as a single flight.

?????

If the requirement is a single cross-country flight with full stop landings at three separate locations, doesn't it have to be entered as such, and not as three separate flights?
 
StraightnLevel said:
Help me understand what this means vis-a-vis solo XC flights? The requirement for PPL SC solo includes:

"One solo cross country flight of 150 nautical miles total distance, with full-stop landings at three points, and one segment of the flight consisting of a straight-line distance of more than 50 nautical miles between the takeoff and landing locations"

Yet, Page 4/5 of the linked presentation seems to say that this should not be entered as a single flight.

?????

If the requirement is a single cross-country flight with full stop landings at three separate locations, doesn't it have to be entered as such, and not as three separate flights?
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That’s not what I was addressing. I was addressing ground instruction is required to be logged
 
dmspilot said:
No, it isn't. 61.31(l)
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That’s the quick short-cut to the end of the conversation, but I was curious what the thought process/justification was around commercial vs. private pilot levels of certification. (No difference with regards to this matter of course)
 
Also I don’t know who Shawn Knickerbocker is, but he suggests FAQ by John Lynch. This is really old material and John Lynch’s efforts were not received well by the FAA administration.
 
Ryan F. said:
Most CP-AMEL add-on applicants never flew the multiengine airplane without an instructor, and therefore never needed a solo endorsement. I assume that’s what you’re alluding to?
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That’s right. I’m staying within the context of the thread (for a change :D).
 
RussR said:
By my (and the DPEs I used when I was doing a lot of ME training) reading, a 61.31d endorsement is still required for the checkride. 61.31d is required for the pilot to act as PIC, which they are on the checkride.
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Yes, but as pointed out when I talked about 61.31(d), there’s 61.31(l).

I’m wondering whether there are DPEs who insist on a one-time only solo endorsement for the multi. And if there aren’t, why for the private single?
 
Western Colorado Flight said:
Yes. Two actually. And not just solo, but solo X-country, specifically to the aiport at which you are taking your checkride. And, here's the kicker...one for the way home should you have an unfavorable result. Make sense?
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Not everyone has to fly to the checkride. I always did, but plenty of students are based on the field where their DPE will begin the exam.
 
StraightnLevel said:
Help me understand what this means vis-a-vis solo XC flights? The requirement for PPL SC solo includes:

"One solo cross country flight of 150 nautical miles total distance, with full-stop landings at three points, and one segment of the flight consisting of a straight-line distance of more than 50 nautical miles between the takeoff and landing locations"

Yet, Page 4/5 of the linked presentation seems to say that this should not be entered as a single flight.

?????
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I just looked at slides 4/5 and don't see anything suggesting a multi-leg cross country flight should not be entered as a single entry (which is the most common way of doing it).
 
midlifeflyer said:
I just looked at slides 4/5 and don't see anything suggesting a multi-leg cross country flight should not be entered as a single entry (which is the most common way of doing it).
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From slide 5:

– Ref each flight FROM/TO only (One leg at a time; no From, To, To, To…)***
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iamtheari said:
Not everyone has to fly to the checkride. I always did, but plenty of students are based on the field where their DPE will begin the exam.
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Yes, and as I understand it, the school works with DPEs who come to the field and do two checkrides per day, so that the planes, logbooks, etc. don't have to leave the field for the whole day. They don't want us flying to a checkride somewhere else.
 
StraightnLevel said:
From slide 5:
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Gotcha.

I learned a long time ago not to pay too much attention to slides. At best they are an outline of the things which will be talked about. I have no idea what the author meant by that line. The fact of the matter is that most required cross countries are logged as a single entry for ease of identification. And if you are using an electronic logbook, a single entry is the way to tell your logbook to count it as the single "flight" the regs ask for.

Example: here's the wording for the student long solo cross country: "One solo cross country flight of 150 nautical miles total distance, with full-stop landings at three points, and one segment of the flight consisting of a straight-line distance of more than 50 nautical miles between the takeoff and landing locations;"
 
Ryan F. said:
Good instructors tend to be available/around/accessible on the day of their student’s practical test…. Thank you!
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:yeahthat:

For my PPL checkride, my CFI made some small error in the endorsement. I was his first student, so he was probably learning more than I was! When the DPE was reviewing my log and noticed it, he called the CFI over and said "You might want to re-check your endorsement." The CFI looked at it, said "Oh crap," grabbed a pen, and fixed it. Problem solved in less than two minutes.

Had he not been on site, the ride would have been discontinued in the first five minutes and I would have been rescheduling for a new time several weeks out (not to mention strangling my CFI).
 
Ryan F. said:
Good instructors tend to be available/around/accessible on the day of their student’s practical test…. Thank you!
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Sometimes they can't. After a couple of cancellations for various (good) reasons, the private pilot applicant finally got a date. Unfortunately, the CFI was going to be out of the country. Fortunately, the student was using an electronic logbook so log entry/endorsement issues could be fixed. Unfortunately, what happened in this case was a checkride failure. Fortunately the DPE would be able to do the retest quickly. Unfortunately, the CFI was out of the country. Fortunately, the CFI and student had a backup and the student passed the checkride two days later.
 
midlifeflyer said:
Sometimes they can't. After a couple of cancellations for various (good) reasons, the private pilot applicant finally got a date. Unfortunately, the CFI was going to be out of the country. Fortunately, the student was using an electronic logbook so log entry/endorsement issues could be fixed. Unfortunately, what happened in this case was a checkride failure. Fortunately the DPE would be able to do the retest quickly. Unfortunately, the CFI was out of the country. Fortunately, the CFI and student had a backup and the student passed the checkride two days later.
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