PPL checkride requirements question:

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StraightnLevel

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StraightnLevel
Is a current solo endorsement required for the PPL checkride?

I don't see that as a requirement if all of the prescriptive flight times have been met, but I'd hate to get caught out by something this mundane. Honestly, I don't see the point in going back to get a new endorsement for just a few days....but is it going to be a problem if I don't?
 
This is a "better safe than sorry," in which I would say yes: ensure you have an appropriate 61.87(n) or 61.87(p) endorsement. If you read the regulations carefully, it's an endorsement for solo flight, whereas the checkride scenario has you acting as PIC with an occupant, which isn't solo flight. But there are plenty of DPEs who regard it as a necessary endorsement to act as PIC, and so will reject you for the checkride.
 
What is the level of effort in having your CFI provide an updated (and current) solo endorsement as well as taking the opportunity for your CFI to give your entire logbook with all endorsements one last look over prior to your checkride?

What is the level of effort if your DPE rejects you because of a non-current solo endorsement? How do you want the DPE to perceive you in terms of preparation and following of rules?

Ultimately your choice how you want to proceed.
 
Mongoose Aviator said:
What is the level of effort in having your CFI provide an updated (and current) solo endorsement as well as taking the opportunity for your CFI to give your entire logbook with all endorsements one last look over prior to your checkride?
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Given the time, money, weather limitations, and coincident CFI and plane availability to get the required flight accomplished, it's a real pain. We're talking a couple of days here, not months. [FWIW, weather in our area has been abysmal since Beryl came through, so flight time is at a premium as everyone is trying to make up for lost time.]

Mongoose Aviator said:
How do you want the DPE to perceive you in terms of preparation and following of rules?
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That's why I am asking what the rules require.
 
Al-OAK said:
This is a "better safe than sorry," in which I would say yes: ensure you have an appropriate 61.87(n) or 61.87(p) endorsement. If you read the regulations carefully, it's an endorsement for solo flight, whereas the checkride scenario has you acting as PIC with an occupant, which isn't solo flight. But there are plenty of DPEs who regard it as a necessary endorsement to act as PIC, and so will reject you for the checkride.
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A DPE can't make up their own rules. The checklists I have seen do not include a requirement for a current solo endorsement. Thus, the question about what the rules actually state, as opposed to supposition.
 
MauleSkinner said:
A DPE can’t make up his own rules, but he can choose who he does and doesn’t fly with.
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Yes, and a refusal to perform a checkride based on something that is not a requirement will result in an immediate call to the FSDO. Nobody involved in the process wants that to happen.


Back to the original question: What do the regs require?
 
StraightnLevel said:
Yes, and a refusal to perform a checkride based on something that is not a requirement will result in an immediate call to the FSDO. Nobody involved in the process wants that to happen.
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Maybe nobody wants it to happen, but the FAA can’t mandate who a DPE does or doesn’t continue to do business with.
 
Regardless of whether it is legally required or not, I would recommend getting a fresh sign-off. My CFI and I both failed to notice that my 90 day solo authorization had expired the previous day but my DPE allowed me to go find my CFI and have her sign me a fresh one right then, dated the day before when we'd last flown together. That said, why would you need an extra flight for the solo sign off? If your instructor is comfortable with giving you the ultimate solo sign off (checkride endorsement), why would there be an issue with getting a new solo sign off?

As far as legally, I have no clue. I don't believe it is listed in the things required to be eligible for a checkride, but I think it seems to be generally regarded as necessary from all the prep materials I've seen, so I would hesitate to assume that it isn't needed.
 
StraightnLevel said:
Is a current solo endorsement required for the PPL checkride?

I don't see that as a requirement if all of the prescriptive flight times have been met, but I'd hate to get caught out by something this mundane. Honestly, I don't see the point in going back to get a new endorsement for just a few days....but is it going to be a problem if I don't?
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This power point presentation from the FAA indicates the answer is, no ... https://www.faasafety.gov/files/eve...19665/FAA_DPE_AIRMN_CERT_INFO_FEB_2023_v2.pdf
 
I think we are missing something important here, SkyChaser mentioned it.

When I went for my check ride, I needed an endorsement from my CFI that I was ready. That was 2.4 hours tach time, and included everything the DPE normally required applicates to do.

The check ride was nearly an hour less, but among other things, the engine out landing accomplished the short field requirement by hitting the numbers, full flaps, and 10 above stall.

The DPE did look for that endorsement, to see who it was, and complimented me on choice of instructors. He had only failed one of his students, the rest he described as over achievers.

As others above have said, do not go to the DPE with any hint of a visible fail in your log, especially the last page or two. You lose his fee, and are required to refly with your instructor to remedy the failure. In your case, schedule him and have him make the required entry, still not free, and now reschedule and wait for the DPE.


Further, if the DPE noticed that your arrival was without a valid solo endorsement, he can advise you that if you attempt to fly from his home field, he will have you cited for flying without the solo endorsement. That will go to the FAA, and you will have repercussions that may delay flying at all, for many days/weeks/months.

Gamblers make poor pilots, and that is what you are proposing to do.
 
The closest thing I know of which covers this specifically is in FAA Order 8900.1. In conducting a private checkride,
E. Solo Flight Endorsement. The applicant’s logbook must contain the appropriate solo flight endorsement(s).​
Yes, it kind of begs the question, "what is appropriate?"

But we can probably justify the requirement with 61.31(d)
(d) Aircraft category, class, and type ratings: Limitations on operating an aircraft as the pilot in command. To serve as the pilot in command of an aircraft, a person must -​
(1) Hold the appropriate category, class, and type rating (if a class or type rating is required) for the aircraft to be flown; or​
(2) Have received training required by this part that is appropriate to the pilot certification level, aircraft category, class, and type rating (if a class or type rating is required) for the aircraft to be flown, and have received an endorsement for solo flight in that aircraft from an authorized instructor.​
 
StraightnLevel said:
Yes, and a refusal to perform a checkride based on something that is not a requirement will result in an immediate call to the FSDO. Nobody involved in the process wants that to happen.


Back to the original question: What do the regs require?
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Why not just call the FSDO ahead of time and ask the question? Be proactive and get the authoritative answer ahead of time.

Elsewise, you’re asking SGOTI for their opinion.
 
midlifeflyer said:
All 61.47 says is (1) the examiner is not PIC unless they agree to be and (2) the applicant is not prohibited from carrying the examiner as a passenger. Not sure how that answers the inconsistency between "still current" and "not required."
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I read it as the endorsement isn’t required, unless the student has to fly somewhere else after failing or discontinuing the practical.
 
StraightnLevel said:
Yes, and a refusal to perform a checkride based on something that is not a requirement will result in an immediate call to the FSDO. Nobody involved in the process wants that to happen.
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There's a problem with that. There are non-specified requirements which examiners are instructed to do by their local FSDO (the FSDO vertical realignment made some good changes, but it's not perfect). If it's one of those, the one who least wants that to happen is the applicant.
 
TCABM said:
I read it as the endorsement isn’t required, unless the student has to fly somewhere else after failing or discontinuing the practical.
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Where does it say anything about endorsements being required or not? If you accept that the student is PIC, aren't we back at 61.31 requiring solo endorsement for acting as PIC?
 
SkyChaser said:
Regardless of whether it is legally required or not, I would recommend getting a fresh sign-off. My CFI and I both failed to notice that my 90 day solo authorization had expired the previous day but my DPE allowed me to go find my CFI and have her sign me a fresh one right then, dated the day before when we'd last flown together. That said, why would you need an extra flight for the solo sign off? If your instructor is comfortable with giving you the ultimate solo sign off (checkride endorsement), why would there be an issue with getting a new solo sign off?

As far as legally, I have no clue. I don't believe it is listed in the things required to be eligible for a checkride, but I think it seems to be generally regarded as necessary from all the prep materials I've seen, so I would hesitate to assume that it isn't needed.
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I agree. In my case, having the solo endorsement was a requirement as I was flying to the DPE's airport for the checkride. Also, I needed a Class B endorsement since the airport was on the other side of the Bravo. That came in handy when I mentioned I was clear into the Bravo and the DPE went looking for that. :cool:
 
midlifeflyer said:
Where does it say anything about endorsements being required or not? If you accept that the student is PIC, aren't we back at 61.31 requiring solo endorsement for acting as PIC?
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The solo endorsement does not apply to a flight carrying a passenger, which describes a checkride.

Honestly, I find this a bit comical, given the amount of unnecessary verbiage used by the FAA to describe each and every detail, while not being clear on something that really should be quite simple.
 
midlifeflyer said:
Where does it say anything about endorsements being required or not? If you accept that the student is PIC, aren't we back at 61.31 requiring solo endorsement for acting as PIC?
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That’s actually a good question; I was thinking in terms of 61.87 and 61.89. But since the student pilot certificate does not have an associated category, class, or type rating, I think I stand corrected as the solo endorsement is what provides the category/class authorized to operate as PIC.
 
TCABM said:
I read it as the endorsement isn’t required, unless the student has to fly somewhere else after failing or discontinuing the practical.
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Right - or if you are flying to a distant airport to begin the exam.

Reading FAA regs is like reading poorly translated Japanese audio equipment instructions from the 1980s. Plenty of effort was spent to compose them, but the net result is often obtuse at best.
 
StraightnLevel said:
Right - or if you are flying to a distant airport to begin the exam.

Reading FAA regs is like reading poorly translated Japanese audio equipment instructions from the 1980s. Plenty of effort was spent to compose them, but the net result is often obtuse at best.
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See post 28 as I missed something.
 
midlifeflyer said:
Where does it say anything about endorsements being required or not? If you accept that the student is PIC, aren't we back at 61.31 requiring solo endorsement for acting as PIC?
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A solo endorsement is required for a student pilot to fly solo. A practical test is not a solo flight.

61.31 (i)(2) waives the requirement for a category and class rating (i.e. private, commercial, or ATP) when taking a practical test being given by an examiner.
 
TCABM said:
See post 28 as I missed something.
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Yes, but the checkride is not a solo flight.

Put another way, the ACS lists qualification requirements in excruciating detail (and it's a great reference). It does not include a current solo endorsement as a requirement (at least not that I have found). Why not?
 
The student isn't solo on a checkride. A solo endorsement is irrelevant.
midlifeflyer said:
Where does it say anything about endorsements being required or not? If you accept that the student is PIC, aren't we back at 61.31 requiring solo endorsement for acting as PIC?
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That does not apply to a practical test. 61.31(l)
 
StraightnLevel said:
Yes, but the checkride is not a solo flight.

Put another way, the ACS lists qualification requirements in excruciating detail (and it's a great reference). It does not include a current solo endorsement as a requirement (at least not that I have found). Why not?
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Dunno, I wasn’t privy to writing that document. As I mentioned, you could proactively call the FSDO and get the answer from an authoritative source.
 
TCABM said:
Dunno, I wasn’t privy to writing that document. As I mentioned, you could proactively call the FSDO and get the answer from an authoritative source.
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I never use a FSDO as an authoritative source. Even without different FSDOs, what the ASI manning the phone the day you call says may be different than what the agent another day says. There have been a number of problems about that. It's definitely better now, but it still happens. I don't know the status but there were recently three FSDOs convinced that there is a new required checkride endorsement and instructed all the DPEs they supervised to look for it. I've spoken with DPEs in other districts who went WTF?
 
StraightnLevel said:
Is a current solo endorsement required for the PPL checkride?

I don't see that as a requirement if all of the prescriptive flight times have been met, but I'd hate to get caught out by something this mundane. Honestly, I don't see the point in going back to get a new endorsement for just a few days....but is it going to be a problem if I don't?
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1. What did your CFI say?
1a. Why is it even a problem getting a new endorsement? If I've signed someone off for a checkride, I sure must be comfortable enough to sign them off for solo.
2. Why not just call the DPE and ask?
 
I make sure their solo endorsement is current, yes, for the checkride.
 
I also make sure someone has more than exactly 5 solo and 5 solo XC hours.. why risk it or make the DPE question it?
 
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