Power-on stalls - confidence zero, can't feel them or hear horn

[dmspilot]

So I turned up, and when I met my instructor I told him about my concerns and that I hadn't slept. His response: "Don't worry, we'll do lots more stalls, now let's talk about simulated engine failure".

Honestly as an instructor I probably would have said almost exactly the same thing. In fact I already did on page one. What were you expecting him to do? And what were your expectations of yourself? Do you expect to be able to do everything correctly the first time? If this was the norm it wouldn't take 60 hours (or whatever the average is these days) to become a pilot.

 

[1RTK1]

Honestly as an instructor I probably would have said almost exactly the same thing. In fact I already did on page one. What were you expecting him to do? And what were your expectations of yourself? Do you expect to be able to do everything correctly the first time? If this was the norm it wouldn't take 60 hours (or whatever the average is these days) to become a pilot.

Agreed, if you are having difficulties/stress with on aspect it is better some times to move on and revisit them later, you might find they become less difficult and stressful when you have more time in the plane.
When I started 30 years ago (didn't finish my ticket then) I flew with an instructor in a 150 aerobat, spins were not my favorite in the beginning, after a short period of time they became an addiction

 

[bobmrg]

Exactly my point. Why are instructors not teaching what the check ride is going to require? Why all the power on stalls straight ahead when the check ride requires something different?

Silly me....I thought that students of all stripes were smart enough to get their own copy of the PTS.

Bob Gardner

 

[RyanShort1]

Honestly as an instructor I probably would have said almost exactly the same thing. In fact I already did on page one. What were you expecting him to do? And what were your expectations of yourself? Do you expect to be able to do everything correctly the first time? If this was the norm it wouldn't take 60 hours (or whatever the average is these days) to become a pilot.

But it sounds like he didn't get proper building blocks prior to that step in the training - so it was going to be a lot harder for him to get comfortable doing them.

 

[arnoha]

Honestly as an instructor I probably would have said almost exactly the same thing. In fact I already did on page one. What were you expecting him to do? And what were your expectations of yourself? Do you expect to be able to do everything correctly the first time? If this was the norm it wouldn't take 60 hours (or whatever the average is these days) to become a pilot.

This clearly wasn't the right instructor and the right curriculum for him. Everybody is different. I've fired instructors that other people swore were the absolute best. It's your dollar: buy what you want and what works for you.

The Chief's response to the OP really bothers me. That's amazingly callous and misses the point entirely. The Chief indicated that he thought the instructor was a great pilot. Never did he say the instructor was a great teacher. Not everyone is going to be good at teaching, even if they are good at the skill. This kid clearly isn't a good teacher yet.

 

[RyanShort1]

Puppy mills like this sounds like are a dis-service to aviation.

 

[Cpt_Kirk]

Puppy mills like this sounds like are a dis-service to aviation.

Duh. As someone who went through one (partially), I can say this is true and I'm glad I fixed it before it got worse.

New tech and glass cockpits get the student so far away from basic airmanship that they can graduate through a course without ever having to display any true flying skills to an examiner.

It's all about the "gouge" nowadays.

 

[Gsxrpilot]

I'm sure these puppy mills serve a purpose and might be good for puppies who still need to raise their hand and get permission before going to the restroom.

I interviewed five CFI's and flew with three of them before settling on an instructor. I was completely transparent with all of them and paid for their time. I realize not everyone has the time or the means to do that, but it worked very well for me. After all, the CFI works for me, and in very close quarters over a long period of time.

 

[jbrinker]

I feel bad for the OP on this thread. As a (re)new student pilot (I have 10 hours from the 90's but just 'started over' last week) I had the choice of a part 141 school, or digging around for a part 61 instructor.

I am certain I made the right choice by going part 61. Exactly what the OP is explaining happened to him was my fear of part 141. I did not want to be "in the mill". After discussions with the part 141 school, vs. My schedule, they basically stopped returning my emails. I.e. if you dont have the time to get through our program on time we are not really interested.

I'm right at the exact same spot in my training where the OP was. Today I go up to work on power on/off stalls and slow flight. I've been here before (15 years ago) so I have some experience. But I can guarantee that I will be apprehensive. If my instructor is not comfortable with taking the time (which I PAY for) to get me 100% comfortable with a maneuver, I will just find another instructor.

I hope topperdoggle is able to find a different instructor, under part 61, and get comfortable. topperdoggle, I think you owe it to yourself to find someone, explain your situation, and pay for a couple hours. This was a dream for you (as it is for basicall all of us) and letting it die due to the puppy mill effect is really horrible. At least do that and if you still are sure this is not for you, well, then maybe that is so. But letting the teacher/method end it just feels so empty. Its amazing what a difference a different instructor/method can do.

 

[Caramon13]

Good decision topperdoggle. Some schools are like that, just mills cranking out people who are trained to pass a test, but have no real "understanding" of things. You made a good choice and as jrollf said, definitely find someone who is doing it for the love of aviation and not as a "stepping stone".

In many cases these types of instructors are older, however, I have met a few people in my area who are just independently wealthy and teach because they can afford to do so..AND they have the credentials to back it up.

 

[d5by5]

Duh. As someone who went through one (partially), I can say this is true and I'm glad I fixed it before it got worse.

New tech and glass cockpits get the student so far away from basic airmanship that they can graduate through a course without ever having to display any true flying skills to an examiner.

It's all about the "gouge" nowadays.

You just classified every pilot of a jet aircraft as lacking basic airmanship. And every pilot of aircraft built in the past five years as lacking same.

 

[jordane93]

You just classified every pilot of a jet aircraft as lacking basic airmanship. And every pilot of aircraft built in the past five years as lacking same.

Nothing wrong with new technology but there is something very wrong if the student doesn't know how to fly/navigate without the new technology.

 

[d5by5]

Nothing wrong with new technology but there is something very wrong if the student doesn't know how to fly/navigate without the new technology.

A digital PFD has altimeter and airspeed tape. A VSI, attitude indicator, turn coordinator, baro (kollsman), HSI-compass rose and directional gyro (combo heading indicator and CDI).

Other useful information include density altitude, outside air temperature, TAS & ground speed, wind indicator, AOA meter.

The PFD can also display ADS-B targets, synthetic view of terrain, heading/altitude/airspeed/vsi bugs, autopilot information, XPNDR controls, and radio frequencies.

In other words, the glass PFD is a super-set of the six pack of round gauges. A pilot unable to navigate is not a function of the avionics in the panel.

 

[James331]

A digital PFD has altimeter and airspeed tape. A VSI, attitude indicator, turn coordinator, baro (kollsman), HSI-compass rose and directional gyro (combo heading indicator and CDI).

Other useful information include density altitude, outside air temperature, TAS & ground speed, wind indicator, AOA meter.

The PFD can also display ADS-B targets, synthetic view of terrain, heading/altitude/airspeed/vsi bugs, autopilot information, XPNDR controls, and radio frequencies.

In other words, the glass PFD is a super-set of the six pack of round gauges. A pilot unable to navigate is not a function of the avionics in the panel.

Non of which will help the OP with stalls.

Non of which has any use for a PPL student.

All of which can become a crutch for a PPL student.

Also, all of which are great tools after you build a solid foundation.

 

[jordane93]

A digital PFD has altimeter and airspeed tape. A VSI, attitude indicator, turn coordinator, baro (kollsman), HSI-compass rose and directional gyro (combo heading indicator and CDI).

Other useful information include density altitude, outside air temperature, TAS & ground speed, wind indicator, AOA meter.

The PFD can also display ADS-B targets, synthetic view of terrain, heading/altitude/airspeed/vsi bugs, autopilot information, XPNDR controls, and radio frequencies.

In other words, the glass PFD is a super-set of the six pack of round gauges. A pilot unable to navigate is not a function of the avionics in the panel.

There is also an MFD with a wide array of information that the pilot can easily become distracted.

 

[topdog91]

What's up everyone? Well, I just wanted to tell you all that eight years later life took me back to the UK, and following a bereavement I just started studying for my PPL again! I still have my logbook from my Florida "experience" and I'm now four hours in here (the same as I had in the US), loving it, with a great instructor who is calm, passionate, encyclopaedic knowledge and just finds a great balance. We are both geeks so get on well.

We explored the controls early on as mentioned earlier in this thread and I'm now more confident in myself and in the capabilities of the machine, and can only see myself getting more confident and competent.

For what it's worth, here they were shocked when I showed them the logbook that I'd done stalls and landings in my first four hours... Anyway, live and learn.

I thought about this thread and had to report back, hope everyone is doing well!

 

[Gary Ward]

Hi all,

Thanks for responding. Some answers to points raised above:
Flying a Cessna 152.
As for not hearing the horn, I even tried lifting my headset earcup, and it was still really faint. I generally have good hearing.
I was looking at the instruments mainly to keep coordinated (keeping the ball in the centre). I can try this peripheral vision thing to keep the wings level. I guess I use the ailerons for this, but how do I know how.much right rudder without looking at the turn coordinator?
He did demo a few. But if I can't feel it, it doesnt matter how many he demos.
I didn't feel the buffeting or controls getting lighter.

I appreciate the support, think I've reached my limits here. It was utterly unpleasant for me. I'll try again tomorrow, but I haven't slept well, so what will that be like?

Not sure where your stall horn is located?
I found a small wasp nest in my horn during my first annual. My horn got louder after I removed it. Good luck to you, you will get better.

I got to pay attention those posting dates!! lol

 

[topdog91]

Well all that was eight years ago, I only bumped the thread to thank everyone for their encouragement, hopefully in the planes I'm flying now I'll be able to hear it!

 

[Dan Thomas]

I think that instructor was teaching the approach to the stall, but called it stalling. He might have been scared of the real thing.

When the airplane stalls, the nose drops even with the wheel full back. THAT'S the stall. The prop makes weird noises and the left wing will want to drop.

The Cessna pneumatic stall horn is often weak. They need inspection and maintenance like any other system in the airplane. Sucking on the port even lightly should get a honk. The suction there in flight is not strong at all. The plastic fitting behind that port cracks and leaks. The gasket between it and the leading edge skin crumbles. The plastic tubing between the fitting and horn shrinks and can pull loose. The horn itself can crack. The reed in it is replaceable and is cheap. It can get loose, it gets dust in it. It corrodes. That all makes it weak. I used to keep the reeds in stock.

 

[PaulS]

I had all landings after my first lesson. On the way back to the airport, the instructor told me, " Ok, now we're going to land, pay attention, you're doing them from now on." And I did, not well at all at first, but he was right there to save us and the airplane when needed. I thought that was standard practice.

 

[SkyChaser]

What's up everyone? Well, I just wanted to tell you all that eight years later life took me back to the UK, and following a bereavement I just started studying for my PPL again! I still have my logbook from my Florida "experience" and I'm now four hours in here (the same as I had in the US), loving it, with a great instructor who is calm, passionate, encyclopaedic knowledge and just finds a great balance. We are both geeks so get on well.

We explored the controls early on as mentioned earlier in this thread and I'm now more confident in myself and in the capabilities of the machine, and can only see myself getting more confident and competent.

For what it's worth, here they were shocked when I showed them the logbook that I'd done stalls and landings in my first four hours... Anyway, live and learn.

I thought about this thread and had to report back, hope everyone is doing well!

I'm glad you got back on the horse, and I hope you're able to get your pilot's cert this time! As far as stalls and landings - when I was training a few years back, my very first lesson included stalls and although I didn't land by myself, with the instructor shadowing/telling me what to do, I took it down to about ten feet before the instructor took over and landed. I think it is highly dependent on who is the instructor and what they perceive your comfort level to be.

 

[topdog91]

I'm glad you got back on the horse, and I hope you're able to get your pilot's cert this time! As far as stalls and landings - when I was training a few years back, my very first lesson included stalls and although I didn't land by myself, with the instructor shadowing/telling me what to do, I took it down to about ten feet before the instructor took over and landed. I think it is highly dependent on who is the instructor and what they perceive your comfort level to be.

Thank you! It feels very different this time and that's largely down to the instructor being thorough in the basics but not moving at too slow a pace. He had me trimming it from the first climb, not something I had covered at all in my few lessons in the US, he went on and on about trimming and now I can see why, it makes it much easier to fly the plane, less input from me, less cognitive load which I can use for other things.

I guess it's horses for courses, here in the UK they weren't being judgmental, they just seemed surprised that stalls and landings would be covered before internalizing (not only glossing over) flight controls and their effects. I certainly feel more in control this time around... But let's see what happens when we get to stalls.... At least this time I am starting to get a feel for the rudder so will be less likely to want to "correct" with the ailerons.

 

[Matthew]

It sounds like your whole attitude has changed and learning has now become fun. When I took driver’s ed we had a field day where we went out to a skid pad and got to practice getting out of, and back into, control. That’s pretty similar to stalls and stall recovery. Look at it as a fun chance to throw the airplane around the sky.

 

[topdog91]

Well, it takes two to tango. Of course I've changed, but a different instructor makes all the difference. (And possibly doing a lesson every 1-2 weeks as my schedule suits rather than "having" to do it all in a month.)

But yes, I'm looking forward to it this time, even if we don't get above 2500 feet around EGTR due to the amount of controlled airspace around. Once I'm able to get outside the immediate area, it will be somewhat liberating.

 

[luvflyin]

What's up everyone? Well, I just wanted to tell you all that eight years later life took me back to the UK, and following a bereavement I just started studying for my PPL again! I still have my logbook from my Florida "experience" and I'm now four hours in here (the same as I had in the US), loving it, with a great instructor who is calm, passionate, encyclopaedic knowledge and just finds a great balance. We are both geeks so get on well.

We explored the controls early on as mentioned earlier in this thread and I'm now more confident in myself and in the capabilities of the machine, and can only see myself getting more confident and competent.

For what it's worth, here they were shocked when I showed them the logbook that I'd done stalls and landings in my first four hours... Anyway, live and learn.

I thought about this thread and had to report back, hope everyone is doing well!

Welcome back to the sky. Glad to hear your having fun.

 

[Salty]

Glad you're doing better this time. I think your problem the last time can be summed up with one word. Accelerated. It can be done, but it has to be done right, and the student has to be right also. It won't work for everyone even if it's a good program, and yours didn't sound like they were paying attention.

 

[topdog91]

I had to bump this one more time... Today was my seventh lesson here, and it was the dreaded stall day. I'm pleased to say that I was able to cause, and more importantly recover, from power-off stalls, so my "stall trauma" is well and truly done with, and I'm looking forward to the rest of the lessons with glee. We did recoveries with power off and then with power on.

Specifically, I don't think I get to deal with my "power-on stall trauma" because we don't seem to do them in the UK. From https://publicapps.caa.co.uk/docs/33/Standards Document 19(A) v9.pdf:

Recognition and recovery from stalls. A series of stalls will be required, and the examiner
will brief the sequence of these both pre-flight and in the air.
○ Normally the first stall will be in the clean configuration, entered from straight and level
flight, with the throttle(s) closed. The applicant is to recover on his own initiative when
the aircraft has reached the stalled flight condition1.
○ The second stall will be from an approach configuration, with approach flap setting
gear down and low power. The stall should be initiated from a turn (level or slightly
descending with about 20 bank) and the applicant should recover at the first indication
of a stall2.
○ The third stall will be in the landing configuration with full flap, gear down, and low
power. The stall should be initiated from straight flight in a slight descent as if
established on final approach to land (i.e. not climbing); the applicant should recover at
the first indication of a stall2.
○ All recoveries shall be made with the minimum loss of height and returning to a clean,
climb configuration at maintaining directional control, or to level flight as otherwise
directed by the examiner.

I even enjoyed the first one where I was perhaps a little "keen" to push forward and break the stall, and negative G "hilarity" ensued. Given my history, I might have said right, that's it, not for me, but I actually didn't feel scared, I just understood that my control inputs had been off. My instructor calmly explained that I'd been a bit ham-fisted (he usually compliments me on being light with the controls!). I then went and did maybe 5 or 6 stalls and recoveries, and it was great, calm, and dare I even say I felt more in control. I was particularly pleased with one particular one - previously I'd set up with the wings not quite level and the right wing dropped a little; I understood not to use the ailerons but didn't quite know *what* to do (I suspect it takes time for many early students like me get used to the rudders which are usually less "obvious" than aileron and elevator). Anyway next time around as I was pulling back, the nose was up, and I felt a slight wing drop, I corrected it with the rudder, carried on pulling back, and it was a beautiful thing.

On the way back to the airfield, for educational purposes and as I'm a curious type he demonstrated more advanced things (he's a test pilot in the week) such as how stalls are connected to the angle of attack rather than airspeed i.e. it's possible to stall at speed if you get it very wrong. My confidence is going way up, but definitely not in an arrogant way. I'm loving this and I'm so pleased I came back to it. Thanks all for your support over the last 8(!) years, I'll probably head over to the UK flyer forums now but I'll be back if I ever get that coveted Green Card (I was once in a relocation visa programme but left the company before it all went through...)!

 

[SebIp]

Don’t do power on in UK as in not customarily? Or not allowed?

If former why wouldn’t you try them as part of training? It’s how most people will accidentally stall.

 

[Domenick]

...
On the way back to the airfield, for educational purposes and as I'm a curious type he demonstrated more advanced things (he's a test pilot in the week) such as how stalls are connected to the angle of attack rather than airspeed i.e. it's possible to stall at speed if you get it very wrong. ...

Which demonstrates the dreaded base to final stall.

Congrats on your progress. My issue with stall recovery training was my stomach. I vividly remember after one lesson, stumbling to my car and sitting in it for about 30 minutes until my head stopped spinning and my stomach settled down. That was one of the few times I suffered from motion sickness. Proudly, I never puked.

 

[topdog91]

Don’t do power on in UK as in not customarily? Or not allowed?

If former why wouldn’t you try them as part of training? It’s how most people will accidentally stall.

Well, I quoted and linked the standards document above. I don't know why or why not; perhaps I'm wrong, I'm new to this so please don't take me at face value for chapter and verse. Interestingly, the Pooley's Flight Training Manual does suggest practicing stalls with and without power, clean and with flaps.

Also re-reading what I quoted, the second and third stalls in the Skill Test will be "low power". So I guess technically they are power-on stalls, just not what I remember doing in Part 141 lesson three, with the throttle on full, the nose seemingly pointing up to the heavens, and the guy in the left seat feeling completely hopeless wondering WTH was going on.

Having been through this latest experience, I'm actually looking forward to practicing the second and third stalls.

 

[Tools]

Rookie instructor and asst chief. They are not adapting to you.

Best thing you can do is try some at less than full power, slows things down, gives you a minute to assimilate. Need someone who realizes that…. Regardless of their “perfectness” for you, geesh.

You’ve got a problem, could take all of ten minutes to straighten this out! In other words, don’t sweat it, you’re doing FINE! If you haven’t got it in ten minutes with this guy, change guys…

 

[Stewartb]

The purpose of a power-on stall is to stall the airplane to practice recovery. Feeling it coming isn’t the drill. Make it stall and get on with it. My BFR guys have me do it in a bank, so a wing dropping is expected. Ease back pressure to arrest the stall, level wings with rudder. As long as wing is back to flying the ailerons work, too. I’ve been taught both ways.

 

[Gilbert Buettner]

One way to think of stalls with power on is that the elevator got you into trouble, and the elevator gets you out of trouble. Reduce the angle of attack and the wing starts flying again.

I suspect most power-on stalls occur on go-arounds. The airplane is configured for landing and the rapid application of power causes the pitch to increase rapidly. You have to control the angle of attack to avoid the stall close to the ground.

 

[Domenick]

Power-on stalls simulate a takeoff stall.
Power-off (a misnomer since power is at idle) simulate a landing stall.
You need to practice both.

I have come to believe stall recovery training is less about "recovery" and more about preventing. If you stall on takeoff or landing, it is very likely you are too low to recover. Besides recovery to pass your checkride, you need to know what leads to stalls and what an incipient stall feels like. In your training pay attention to those things as well. Discuss all this with your CFI.

Different aircraft have different stall characteristics. The C152 I trained in would stall like falling off a cliff. The Warrior I own can be flown, fluttering on the edge of a stall until the engine overheats. Keep that in mind if/when you transition to a different plane.

 

[Stewartb]

I disagree. In my airplanes a power on stall requires nothing more than easing elevator pressure. If in a turning stall the training reinforces the need to arrest the stall before leveling wings. Very little ii any altitude loss occurs if the stall is arrested quickly.

Low level departure stalls are probably most often caused by excessive flaps during a go-around. That’s another good thing to train for. Pushing the nose down takes effort and it isn’t intuitive for newer pilots. Again, not an altitude eater if recovered quickly.

 

[Domenick]

Of course. If done perfectly, very little loss of altitude need occur. During training, we know what is coming. We are poised to recover. We anticipate.

Not in real life.

In real life, it takes a half to multiple seconds of startle reaction before any recovery is attempted. That precious time deepens the stall and reduces altitude.

I am not suggesting recovery should not be taught, but recognition and prevention should be emphasized as strongly. In training I got very good at minimizing altitude loss. Not sure I'd do as well, should I stall on base to final at 200-300 AGL.

 

[Stewartb]

I thought the topic was departure stalls?

I can’t understand how any competent pilot stalls in a base to final turn. The only “danger” would be if the stall is uncoordinated. Competent pilots know better.

 

[topdog91]

Well the topic was really me being intimidated by stalls when I first tried learning to fly, then having a much better experience now, eight years later. But I think some people just read the subject and / or one or two posts.

Regarding your comment though, I think the point is that competency is not black and white, it's a sliding scale. Human beings make mistakes, and complacency is just as dangerous as lack of competency.

But what do I know, I have 13 hours, so I'm hardly competent.

 

[Stewartb]

Step on a rudder at low level to tighten a turn? You won’t get many more hours. If a pilot isn’t current enough to feel coordination? That’s what the ball is for. If coordinated? A power off stall is easy to recognize, easy to avoid, and easy to recover from with very little altitude loss. Training should include turning stalls. Ask your instructor to show you with power on and power off. Very benign as long as you’re coordinated.

 

[Domenick]

I thought the topic was departure stalls?

I can’t understand how any competent pilot stalls in a base to final turn. The only “danger” would be if the stall is uncoordinated. Competent pilots know better.

Of course inadvertent stalls are easy to avoid. Yet they still happen. It doesn't matter if you understand it or not.

Feeling coordination takes time. Time to wire your butt to your hands and mostly feet. Some people never get it. My training did include turning stalls. Scarier than **** at first, especially when that inside wing drops.