Potentially Forced Into HIMS Due To A Tattoo

[bbchien]

Isn’t that exactly what the “doctor” did to him?

You do not know that. FACTS MATTER HERE. Get the record.

 

[bbchien]

I’m guessing this AME has a buddy in the area that is a HIMS AME. HIMS AMES greatly benefit from airmen going into the program. It’s a racket.

Then don’t get DUIs or smoke or do Coke. Or get the H_ck out of the industry...which is how it was before HIMS. They just fired your a__. Folks forget that.....

 

[BladeSlap]

Then don’t get DUIs or smoke or do Coke. Or get the H_ck out of the industry...which is how it was before HIMS. They just fired your a__. Folks forget that.....

He got a tattoo…

 

[BladeSlap]

You do not know that. FACTS MATTER HERE. Get the record.

Why don’t you say that when it’s a airmen who might have made a mistake, or in the case of this AME gone way off the path of what’s right

At first I thought you were defending your HIMS industry, however I am not sure now.

I think you might be a true believer, that all the silly illogical and unscientific methods of the FAA actually are keeping the sky from raining aircraft, maybe you see yourself as some type of gate keeper helping the “worthy” and casting down the “undesirable”. I don’t see how post basic med and LSA how someone could believe, especially with all the crazy stories on here like this tattoo nonsense, the passion you speak with, it is that of a true believer in the system.

 

[Rushie]

He got a tattoo…

If OP’s story as told is exactly true. We non-professional keyboard warriors (including myself) giving advice and ranting about “the system” have the luxury of assuming that. Bruce doesn’t. He has to deal with these anon posters as a professional with his reputation and liability at stake when they finally contact him privately. He is correct to ask the OP to get the record and to make a general statement about how to avoid this kind of hassle whether or not OP actually has a bigger issue than a tattoo, which at this point none of us actually know.

As a courtesy, I always assume OPs’ stories are as presented, “innocent until proven guilty” just in case they are innocent. But I know full well they could be trolls, or playing loose with the truth. But I’m just SGOTI without a medical license to defend.

Why don’t you say that when it’s a airmen who might have made a mistake, or in the case of this AME gone way off the path of what’s right

At first I thought you were defending your HIMS industry, however I am not sure now.

I think you might be a true believer, that all the silly illogical and unscientific methods of the FAA actually are keeping the sky from raining aircraft, maybe you see yourself as some type of gate keeper helping the “worthy” and casting down the “undesirable”. I don’t see how post basic med and LSA how someone could believe, especially with all the crazy stories on here like this tattoo nonsense, the passion you speak with, it is that of a true believer in the system.

I’ve known Bruce for two decades. He has to walk a fine line between keeping dangerous people out of the air AND getting safe people certified, and works just as hard if not more so to do the latter. He was largely responsible for getting the SSRI SI option in place, which now allows certain pilots with a treatable mental condition to fly - wasn’t the case before. He said years ago that getting a difficult certification case past the FAA is a joy worth it all, and it’s the reason he does it. But it also comes with having to deal with all the uncertifiable. When someone comes here with an anon story he has to figure out which it is, and knows from long experience exactly how to get to the truth.

There is a difference between mindlessly supporting stupid bureaucracy for the sake of authoritarianism, and accepting that it exists and knowing how to navigate it. Bruce doesn’t waste time beating a brick wall wailing about unfairness because he figured out long ago that gets you nowhere. If you don’t like the rules vote your Congressman out of office, bring a case to SCOTUS, or start a civil war.

Otherwise if you want to fly, if you try to bypass the system by being duplicitous you are wasting Bruce’s time and he has zero patience for that, because he wants to spend his time doing everything possible to get healthy people in the air. His tone comes from decades of dealing with the unhealthy who can’t play the FAA’s game.

 

[PaulS]

Why don’t you say that when it’s a airmen who might have made a mistake, or in the case of this AME gone way off the path of what’s right

At first I thought you were defending your HIMS industry, however I am not sure now.

I think you might be a true believer, that all the silly illogical and unscientific methods of the FAA actually are keeping the sky from raining aircraft, maybe you see yourself as some type of gate keeper helping the “worthy” and casting down the “undesirable”. I don’t see how post basic med and LSA how someone could believe, especially with all the crazy stories on here like this tattoo nonsense, the passion you speak with, it is that of a true believer in the system.

Hmmm, crazy story, maybe there is a lot more to that crazy story, which is what Bruce is saying here. His simple point is that before the present system, if a person presented with addiction issues, they were just fired and not allowed to return. Now there is a process, as tedious as it is, that allows the people who can prove they are recovered, to fly again.

You are harassing a doctor here who has literally helped multitudes of pilots with these types of issues get certified again. And I'm sure, told as many that their case is not certifiable. He is not part of the problem, he is the solution for many desperate pilots. Please treat him with the respect he deserves rather than piling on him as an outsider, with little info, looking in. Please stop.

 

[Chip Sylverne]

How about, for the sake of argument, we stipulate to the facts as stated by the OP. That is that the only evidence of poor judgement here is the tattoo he got as a youth two decades ago.

Is the AME justified in probing further based on the tattoo as "probable cause"? Would the same be true if the tatt said "OCD 4 ever" or " Can't wait to meet Jesus" ?

 

[Llewtrah381]

How about, for the sake of argument, we stipulate to the facts as stated by the OP. That is that the only evidence of poor judgement here is the tattoo he got as a youth two decades ago.

Is the AME justified in probing further based on the tattoo as "probable cause"?

The facts include this quote: “Now, keep in mind, IVE NEVER BEEN ARRESTED, I DO NOT do drugs, and I drink socially.”

- Never having been arrested is not the same as never having had a drug or alcohol problem

- “I DO NOT do drugs” is present tense and is different than “I have never done drugs”.

- “I drink socially” is both present tense and subjective

There’s only one, incomplete side being given in the OP so it’s not safe to speculate about what actually did happen, IMHO. And crucifying the AME based solely on this OP is definitely not fair.

 

[Salty]

If you choose to not believe the story then the AME is fictional as is the story told. The fictional AME in the story absolutely deserves to be crucified.

None of us here are in a position to do anything about the situation, true or not, so why are we trying to make it anything but fiction? Why are "we" worried about a fictional AME's reputation?

Seriously, I don't get why the angst over an AME that either doesn't exist, or deserves it.

 

[JOhnH]

If, if, if, if the OPs account is complete and true, then the AME deserves the criticism he is getting.

But I don't believe that the story is anywhere near true and complete.

@bbchien is right to ask for the facts before jumping to conclusions here. I tend to believe any AME before I believe some anonymous internet poster with a wild accusation. We need to hear both sides. I have heard way too many stories where someone claims that they were abused for no reason ("I didn't do anything"), but when pressed for facts it almost always turns out, Yes they did do something.
If it turns out that the OP was telling the complete truth, then Dr. Bruce's position is still the right one. Get the facts before making your decision.

 

[Llewtrah381]

If you choose to not believe the story then the AME is fictional as is the story told. The fictional AME in the story absolutely deserves to be crucified.

None of us here are in a position to do anything about the situation, true or not, so why are we trying to make it anything but fiction? Why are "we" worried about a fictional AME's reputation?

Seriously, I don't get why the angst over an AME that either doesn't exist, or deserves it.

Then how ‘bout this get moved to the “favorite conspiracy theory” thread?

 

[BladeSlap]

I feel we need to question those who can’t be questioned, Chien has refused to even acknowledge possible conflicts of interest before, and based on what has been written he seems to offer more in the defense of the AME than the airman who was victimized by the AME. Until there is more to the story, that is the story.

Also some iffy advice when it comes to getting your elected officials involved when the FAA isn’t doing their jobs.

Now this is worded strangely, but it sounds like he is saying it takes 4 times as long if you call your congressmen

“So of course, when you have a mortgage and kid's tuition to pay, one uses his congressman. What that does is takes more time out of circuit becuase then the medical officer has to work the case without the minion in front of him to organize the case. It takes him about 4x as long.”

Yet reality said

“As an update - I was issued an unrestricted Class 2 medical certificate yesterday, saw the update on the Airman Database and had the RFS email me a copy this morning. The date of review by the FAA physician means that it was looked at within 2 business days of the congressional inquiry being submitted.”
(https://www.pilotsofamerica.com/com...-involvement-good-or-bad.135341/#post-3181330)

 

[JOhnH]

I feel we need to question those who can’t be questioned, Chien has refused to even acknowledge possible conflicts of interest before, and based on what has been written he seems to offer more in the defense of the AME than the airman who was victimized by the AME. Until there is more to the story, that is the story.

How does this:

You do not know that. FACTS MATTER HERE. Get the record.

equate to :

Chien has refused to even acknowledge possible conflicts of interest

 

[TCABM]

I feel we need to question those who can’t be questioned, Chien has refused to even acknowledge possible conflicts of interest before, and based on what has been written he seems to offer more in the defense of the AME than the airman who was victimized by the AME. Until there is more to the story, that is the story.

You can question Bruce all day long; you may not like the answers but that’s your problem, not his.

 

[BladeSlap]

How does this:

equate to :

The refusing to acknowledge any possible conflict of interest with his business was in another topic

You can question Bruce all day long; you may not like the answers but that’s your problem, not his.

Actually he often just ignores those questions, and I get a feeling much questioning would result in me getting banned, or worse with his ties to the FAA.

 

[Cap'n Jack]

I feel we need to question those who can’t be questioned, Chien has refused to even acknowledge possible conflicts of interest before, and based on what has been written he seems to offer more in the defense of the AME than the airman who was victimized by the AME. Until there is more to the story, that is the story.

No, he merely indicated that we are hearing only one side of the story. Dr. Bruce can certainly be questioned, but not in the manner you are doing.

Also some iffy advice when it comes to getting your elected officials involved when the FAA isn’t doing their jobs.

Now this is worded strangely, but it sounds like he is saying it takes 4 times as long if you call your congressmen

“So of course, when you have a mortgage and kid's tuition to pay, one uses his congressman. What that does is takes more time out of circuit becuase then the medical officer has to work the case without the minion in front of him to organize the case. It takes him about 4x as long.”

Yet reality said

“As an update - I was issued an unrestricted Class 2 medical certificate yesterday, saw the update on the Airman Database and had the RFS email me a copy this morning. The date of review by the FAA physician means that it was looked at within 2 business days of the congressional inquiry being submitted.”
(https://www.pilotsofamerica.com/com...-involvement-good-or-bad.135341/#post-3181330)

Who do you thinks knows more about how the system works? Him or you? I'll take the expert over SGOTI any day. Dr. Bruce has proven his expertise many times over.

 

[OneCharlieTango]

Well, to be fair, the person posting as Dr Bruce is SGOTI to most of us.

 

[Keithlewis1900]

A doctor can be knowledgeable while having poor bedside manner, as is the case here. The person in question doesn’t have the greatest online reviews.

 

[Llewtrah381]

Seems like some people thrive on outrage and seek it out, regardless of the (missing) facts. I’d find that to be an angry, miserable life, personally

 

[Lachlan]

Well, to be fair, the person posting as Dr Bruce is SGOTI to most of us.

I’m betting he’s had diarrhea before, forgotten something, and spilled water, too. That Doc Bruce, he must be some sort of eejit, right?

The refusing to acknowledge any possible conflict of interest with his business was in another topic. Actually he often just ignores those questions, and I get a feeling much questioning would result in me getting banned, or worse with his ties to the FAA.

I’ve seen this game plan before- setting yourself up to be the pitiable victim by poking the bear, then crying for mommy when you get a scratch. If you think Bruce has the time or interest in going after you “with his ties to the FAA” then you’re even less bright than I had generously given you credit. You have “ties to the FAA,” also. Unless you’re flying without a certificate, or just some guy with a keyboard. Oh, facts matter, don’t they? Dr Chien has more compassion for aviators in his pinky than some have in their entire body. Show some respect. Then man is a veteran. I have a feeling you’re gonna need his help some day.

Seems like if an AME deferred a revenue airman for some ink, that AME would come under some intense scrutiny by Oklahoma City for his wild methods and waste of their time. There’s more to this story. Just like the Alec Baldwin story. Oh, you believe the airman’s side, but not Baldwin’s? Well done. Bladeslap wants to question everything and everyone, until those questions might reveal that the big bad gubmint might not be the bad guy, after all.

A doctor can be knowledgeable while having poor bedside manner, as is the case here. The person in question doesn’t have the greatest online reviews.

That’s gonna happen when you’re dealing with a portion of your clientele that have very poor judgement and have been arrested for it. “Not my fault, that doctor is terrible! He said that in the eyes of the FAA I’m an alcoholic. I’m not! I hardly ever get arrested!”

Have a nice day.

 

[RussR]

Now this is worded strangely, but it sounds like he is saying it takes 4 times as long if you call your congressmen

“So of course, when you have a mortgage and kid's tuition to pay, one uses his congressman. What that does is takes more time out of circuit becuase then the medical officer has to work the case without the minion in front of him to organize the case. It takes him about 4x as long.”

I think it's pretty straightforward. He's saying that it takes the doctor 4x as long to do their part, not that it takes 4x as long for you to get it. You really think that if something takes 6 months to get back to you, that the doctor was working on it for 6 months? No, it sat in a queue for most of that time, then the doctor spent an hour or a day or whatever reviewing it. I'm pretty sure that what Bruce is saying is that by doing a congressional, the overall process from your standpoint may go faster, but it actually takes the doctor longer to do their part because it's being moved up in the queue, possibly without the normal advance work that goes on and is done by the assistant.

 

[Matthew]

I've seen enough of these kinds of things, and I *know* that Dr Chien sees it every day: "Here's the deal, xxx". Then, later, "Oh, yeah, I forgot to add yyy". Again, later, "Well, there also was zzz."

So, yeah, we only know part of one side of the story.

As for bedside manner? Just give me the no BS answer, I'm an adult.

OK - maybe I'm biased, but Doc Bruce has helped me navigate FAA med, and has helped a HS kid I was mentoring get past the Adderall trap. A little reminder from him that FAA med "is what it is, suck it up and deal with it" is probably overdue.

 

[JOhnH]

Well, to be fair, the person posting as Dr Bruce is SGOTI to most of us.

You just lost credibility, or at a minimum have displayed your ignorance and naivety. Dr. Bruce has been such a long time participant on this and other boards, and has personally helped so many here that many of us consider him a friend. I have not personally met him, but I have personally met several people that have, and he is everything he professes to be. @bbchien is definitely NOT just SGOTI.

 

[schmookeeg]

You just lost credibility, or at a minimum have displayed your ignorance and naivety. Dr. Bruce has been such a long time participant on this and other boards, and has personally helped so many here that many of us consider him a friend. I have not personally met him, but I have personally met several people that have, and he is everything he professes to be. @bbchien is definitely NOT just SGOTI.

I agree with your sentiment, but I hate this construct:

1. I have no direct experience regarding the subject at hand
2. People who I listen to claim to have
3. I therefore mirror their opinions/convictions on the subject.

It seems to infest all discourse lately, political or otherwise. Gone is the "I have no direct knowledge of that" silence instead of chiding from this false position.

==

I've consulted online with Doc Bruce. He's still SGOTI to me but I was grateful for his assistance, for which he charged me nothing. I used to openly mock his eeyore-ing online. Sigh.

 

[Jeff Oslick]

Without further commenting on the OPs specific situation, I will just add that there are definitely some really bad AMEs out there. I encountered one many years ago. While I passed the medical (Class 3), it was quite clear that this AME was digging for something, anything, to try to make a very simple, healthy pilot medical into something. I never went back to that AME and warned other pilots away. I don't know whether that doc was just having a bad day, or had some other motivation, but something was quite evidently "off" about the way they were conducting the exam.

Let's face it, we all encounter pretty wacked-out people in our daily lives, including in our professions. To believe that none of them exist in every professional setting is to be naive.

 

[Brad Smith]

If you’re only hearing one side of the story, you’re not in the position to make a judgment. Hearing BOTH sides allows you to compare facts and come to a sound conclusion. Would you like to be tried in court based on just the prosecution? Didn’t think so.

 

[Tools]

Lachlan said:

“Seems like if an AME deferred a revenue airman for some ink, that AME would come under some intense scrutiny by Oklahoma City for his wild methods and waste of their time.”

I’ve seen this dozens of times and the FAA didn’t care. I’ve seen formal complaints against the doctors and HIMS Chairmen and the FAA didn’t care. All BIG 121 operations.

By ink I refer to things written down and not verified or properly documented. Unsubstantiated claims, etc. Very much the same thing as merely eyeballing a tattoo.

 

[Tools]

If you’re only hearing one side of the story, you’re not in the position to make a judgment. Hearing BOTH sides allows you to compare facts and come to a sound conclusion. Would you like to be tried in court based on just the prosecution? Didn’t think so.

Which is precisely what the docs, unions, airlines and FAA do with regards to HIMS.

 

[Cap'n Jack]

Well, to be fair, the person posting as Dr Bruce is SGOTI to most of us.

Dr. Bruce has been on this, and other forums for many years. He's fairly well known at AOPA, and he's been giving good advice for some years now.

A doctor can be knowledgeable while having poor bedside manner, as is the case here. The person in question doesn’t have the greatest online reviews.

Have you met the gentleman? What do you know of his "bedside" manners? He does no BS, straight talk, and if he were local to me, I would use his services. I doubt Dr. Bruce is listed on Tripadvisor.

 

[PaulS]

......

I get a feeling much questioning would result in me getting banned, or worse with his ties to the FAA.

A doctor can be knowledgeable while having poor bedside manner, as is the case here. The person in question doesn’t have the greatest online reviews.

I consulted Dr. Chien about 7 years ago for a question on my medical. I didn't meet him, but I did speak to him on the phone a few times. When we spoke, he was soft spoken, and very focused on my issue. Honestly I had expected a gruff no nonsense encounter, but it was nothing like that. He was concerned with one particular statement in my medical record that he thought would be an issue for me. He asked for my doctor's number and told me he would give the guy a call. After getting clarification from my doctor, Dr Chien called me back, and told me he didn't think I would have any issues getting a 3rd class medical based on his discussion. He told me what to do to get the medical and things went just as he said it would.

His "bedside" manner was fantastic, frankly I can't imagine him trying to randomly cause trouble with the FAA for an anonymous person on internet.

I checked his reviews online, he has a great reputation and reviews except for one person who looks to me like he wrote a couple negative reviews.

Like any doctor, Dr. Chien has to give people bad news sometimes.... and sometimes people want to shoot the messenger.

 

[BladeSlap]

I thought private messages were private and not to be shared? Since you posted it, I don't see the threat nor insult.

I don’t think anything posted to a website anyone can join is private.

And you should reread

So what if I dare question Chien and one day need a HIMS I’ll be black balled? That’s some top quality medicine lol

 

[nauga]

I thought private messages were private and not to be shared?

Private Messages (aka 'Conversations') received on POA are considered to be private, and the contents of these, in whole, part, or paraphrased, may not be discussed publicly unless the other partipant(s) of the Private Message / Conversation agree in writing beforehand.

Nauga,
SIC

 

[Cap'n Jack]

I don’t think anything posted to a website anyone can join is private.


And you should reread

Maybe you should re-read the rules of conduct that you agreed to when joining PoA?
https://www.pilotsofamerica.com/community/help/RoC/

Private Messages (aka 'Conversations') received on POA are considered to be private, and the contents of these, in whole, part, or paraphrased, may not be discussed publicly unless the other partipant(s) of the Private Message / Conversation agree in writing beforehand.

So what if I dare question Chien and one day need a HIMS I’ll be black balled? That’s some top quality medicine lol

I didn't read it that way. The person who wrote that had no way to carry out a threat, especially since I doubt anyone here knows who you really are. I took it as "don't annoy people you may need in the future", which is always good advice.

 

[Brad Z]

I think it's pretty straightforward. He's saying that it takes the doctor 4x as long to do their part, not that it takes 4x as long for you to get it. You really think that if something takes 6 months to get back to you, that the doctor was working on it for 6 months? No, it sat in a queue for most of that time, then the doctor spent an hour or a day or whatever reviewing it. I'm pretty sure that what Bruce is saying is that by doing a congressional, the overall process from your standpoint may go faster, but it actually takes the doctor longer to do their part because it's being moved up in the queue, possibly without the normal advance work that goes on and is done by the assistant.

...not to mention the effort of the doctor reviewing the case to respond to the Congressman's office and draft a letter advising what's steps were taken and how the situation was resolved, and closing out the congressional case. It definitely adds extra time to the process.

 

[Palmpilot]

The refusing to acknowledge any possible conflict of interest with his business was in another topic...

I don't think his advising the OP to get the full facts qualifies as evidence of a conflict of interest. It also doesn't necessarily equate to accusing the OP of dishonesty, because it's also possible that the OP does not know the full details of the AME's communication with the FAA. If the OP takes Bruce's advice and gets a copy of his medical certification records from the FAA, he will find out whether he has the whole story or not.

I've seen lots and lots of pilots credit him with helping them remain in the sky (myself included). I've never seen evidence of his advice being driven by conflict of interest.

 

[4RNB]

Dude, create an account and PM Tools! I've met him IRL and he means what he says.

 

[NHWannabe]

I don’t think anything posted to a website anyone can join is private.

And you should reread

So what if I dare question Chien and one day need a HIMS I’ll be black balled? That’s some top quality medicine lol

Did Dr. Bruce **** in your Corn Flakes? You seem to have a hair across your backside.

 

[kgruber]

 

[BladeSlap]

Did Dr. Bruce **** in your Corn Flakes? You seem to have a hair across your backside.

No, I don’t know the man, I’m just going off the apparent tone, and the content of what he wrote. Based on what the poster said, if was a doctor, or even a “AME”, as the FAA deal isn’t real medicine, I would be outraged if someone in MY profession made such a mockery of my industry, and made it more likely for outsiders to consider my industry more of a quack shop than anything resembling legitimacy.

If someone came on this site as a pax and asked about a pilot who refused to fly a passenger because they were gay based on a made up reg, or said it’s 100% ok to fly way over gross, every pilot here would rightfully crucify that pilot.

 

[Lndwarrior]

I don’t think anything posted to a website anyone can join is private.

And you should reread

So what if I dare question Chien and one day need a HIMS I’ll be black balled? That’s some top quality medicine lol

Likely won't blackball you, just send you on down the road with all the other internet idiots who don't know who, or what, they are talking about.