Possible to get IR w/o ever flying with a CFI?

SixPapaCharlie

SixPapaCharlie

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Best I can tell, you can do 10 or 20 or 30 hours in a sim based on some technical gibberish that I don't understand yet.

Seems the sim would be a good way to get started as you get the reset button versus the "fly out and start over to get setup again" process. I would also assume it would be a bit cheaper since very little avgas is involved.

I would like to understand the real requirement for a sim and the hours. I see numbers (on the internet) are varying.

So I can do the sim with an instructor there and fly the remaining hours with local knuckleheads as safety pilots and never actually get in a plane w/ a CFI? :)

I do want to start in a sim and I am researching how that works and I will of course work with a CFI in an actual flying machine. But was just curious about the sim situation. Who has done it? Are there real advantages or is it better to just go from soup to nuts with a CFI?
 
Theoretically, except for
(ii) Instrument flight training on cross country flight procedures, including one cross country flight in an airplane with an authorized instructor, that is performed under instrument flight rules, when a flight plan has been filed with an air traffic control facility, and that involves—

(A) A flight of 250 nautical miles along airways or by directed routing from an air traffic control facility;

(B) An instrument approach at each airport; and

(C) Three different kinds of approaches with the use of navigation systems.
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See 61.65(d). Authorized instructor means a CFI with an instrument airplane rating on his instructor certificate, aka CFII.
 
MauleSkinner said:
Theoretically, except for
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And don't forget 61.65(d)(i)
(i) Three hours of instrument flight training from an authorized instructor in an airplane that is appropriate to the instrument-airplane rating within 2 calendar months before the date of the practical test; and
 
I'm hoping the question is really "who has done a significant portion of IFR training in SIM" and not "can I get IR without flying with an instructor"
 
And if you want you can plan your own route's. I'd recommend a CFI that is either 19 or 79.

Oh yeah, and at least one inverted ILS...just so you know which way to fly reference the needles. ;)
 
And to answer your original question, Bryan... it's best to use a CFII who is a good teacher and has practical instrument experience in addition to experience training instrument students. The best approach for instrument training is a combined approach of ground session, flight training device session, real flying, and debrief. Folks like PIC have been successful as they have incorporated this concept in a condensed period. Yes you can count time under the hood flying with your buddy as safety pilot towards some of the aeronautical experience requirements, but I would highly recommend coordinating any "extracurricular" instrument practice with your CFII in order to avoid picking up bad habits or wasting your time.
 
Brad Z said:
And to answer your original question, Bryan... it's best to use a CFII who is a good teacher and has practical instrument experience in addition to experience training instrument students. The best approach for instrument training is a combined approach of ground session, flight training device session, real flying, and debrief. Folks like PIC have been successful as they have incorporated this concept in a condensed period. Yes you can count time under the hood flying with your buddy as safety pilot towards some of the aeronautical experience requirements, but I would highly recommend coordinating any "extracurricular" instrument practice with your CFII in order to avoid picking up bad habits or wasting your time.
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Yup...in a non-theoretical world, this.
 
Brad Z said:
The best approach for instrument training is a combined approach of ground session, flight training device session, real flying, and debrief. Folks like PIC have been successful as they have incorporated this concept in a condensed period
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And with the wide range of instructors they have in their cadre, PIC is bound to have someone already familiar with the characteristics of SR22's and the avionics of N25MV. Once again, saving you time and money over someone using the first five to seven hours learning your aircraft.
 
The sim can be helpful if you need practice understanding how to use a CDI or HSI. I don't think the basic, non-motion simulators do much for teaching you how to fly on instruments or scan.

I did about the first 12-15 hours with a CFII mostly in the plane. Then I flew with various safety pilots until I had about 30 hours total under the hood. From 30-40 hours I did checkride prep with my instructor. This worked out fine for me, I took the checkride with 40 hours and did everything in maybe 5 months? It worked out well for me.

I would go with PIC or one of the accelerated courses if you have the time though.
 
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dell30rb said:
The sim can be helpful if you need practice understanding how to use a CDI or HSI. I don't think the basic, non-motion simulators do much for teaching you how to fly on instruments or scan.

I did about the first 12-15 hours with a CFII mostly in the plane. Then I flew with various safety pilots until I had about 30 hours total under the hood. From 30-40 hours I did checkride prep with my instructor. This worked out fine for me, I took the checkride with 40 hours and did everything in maybe 5 months? It worked out well for me.
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Why can't a flight training device help with scanning instruments?
 
No. The sim must be approved as an FTD and a CFII must give you instruction using the sim. I've got 20+ hrs in the Frasca thru the local university (part 141 or 142, I never remember) but that's more than allowed under the FARs.
 
Brad Z said:
Why can't a flight training device help with scanning instruments?
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It was not helpful for me. I did 3 hours or so of my IR in an elite BATD sim.

A lot of instrument flying is scanning and learning to trust your instruments while dealing with seat of the pants sensations. A non-motion sim can't replicate that.
 
eman1200 said:
..."can I get IR without flying with an instructor"
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Don't work, azblackbird will be along shortly to ask THAT question. He seems to want to shortcut everything anyway.

"Can I do all my solo XC at the same time, with foggles, in a multiengine glider, while not being commercial rated and carrying questionable cargo, without FAA approval, and get my PPL in 40.01 hrs?"

Sorry for the hijack! I volunteer to be one of your knuckleheads!
 
I suspect you could go to Flight Safety and get a type rating and your ATP in a jet. Forget the instrument rating.

Although, it used to be that your 1st type rating had to be IN the airplane...........and I have a great story about that. But, has that changed?
 
kgruber said:
I suspect you could go to Flight Safety and get a type rating and your ATP in a jet. Forget the instrument rating.

Although, it used to be that your 1st type rating had to be IN the airplane...........and I have a great story about that. But, has that changed?
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He might have a problem with 61.153(d)(1), though.
 
dell30rb said:
It was not helpful for me. I did 3 hours or so of my IR in an elite BATD sim.

A lot of instrument flying is scanning and learning to trust your instruments while dealing with seat of the pants sensations. A non-motion sim can't replicate that.
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Oh course not. But the student can see the relationship of the instruments and can learn how their actions effect the response of the aircraft. The instructor can stop immediately and brief during the session. This is particularly effective with partial panel training.
 
My IFR finishing school planning has me debating... after passing the written again, do I fly it off and finish in Candy with the Dynon glass, or do I use the Cardinal with a six-pack that is very similar to the Six.

I could argue it either way, and I already know my DPE will give me the ride in the RV. My safety pilot options are better in the club planes since they all fly them. I prefer a safety pilot that knows what should be going on over someone who's only a pair of eagle eyes out the window.
 
You have no instructor willing to train you in your airplane?

I'd take the one more equipped to the avionics in your plane.
 
The crux of my question is just wondering about the benefit of starting with a sim. I see them advertised and wonder if there is value in it due to the nature of quickly resetting.
 
SixPapaCharlie said:
The crux of my question is just wondering about the benefit of starting with a sim. I see them advertised and wonder if there is value in it due to the nature of quickly resetting.
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I definitely wouldn't start out in the sim. It's very useful for figuring out issues that arise in the airplane, but for initial instrument training I think the airplane is a better tool.
 
SixPapaCharlie said:
The crux of my question is just wondering about the benefit of starting with a sim. I see them advertised and wonder if there is value in it due to the nature of quickly resetting.
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My opinion, don't start with a sim. Use it later if you want some extra practice with nav tools.

The first thing you need to learn is how to fly the airplane by reference to instruments. Climbs, descents, configuration change, turning climbs, turning descents. I would start in the plane.
 
SixPapaCharlie said:
The crux of my question is just wondering about the benefit of starting with a sim. I see them advertised and wonder if there is value in it due to the nature of quickly resetting.
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Absolutely there is benefit to starting in a sim. Get your instrument scan down, learn holds, pattern A/B, etc. I did about 15 hours in the sim because I couldn't understand and visualize holds. In the Redbird, we were able to pause, reset, reposition, and brief on the spot. Plus we were able to do as many approaches/holds as we wanted.
 
kgruber said:
I suspect you could go to Flight Safety and get a type rating and your ATP in a jet. Forget the instrument rating.
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Can't do that...61.163 requires a Commercial Instrument (or military or foreign equivalents)
Although, it used to be that your 1st type rating had to be IN the airplane...........and I have a great story about that. But, has that changed?
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You can do your first type in the sim, but unless you meet certain requirements, you'll end up with a Supervised Operating Experience (SOE) limitation on your certificate. After accomplishing PIC duties for 25 hours or so with another type-rated pilot on board you can get the SOE removed.
 
jordane93 said:
In the Redbird, we were able to pause, reset, reposition, and brief on the spot. Plus we were able to do as many approaches/holds as we wanted.
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I guess we should ask the question, what SIM does the OP have access to. A Redbird is a far cry from what I used. (I have used a redbird too, but after I had my IR)
 
Starting out without an instructor is a BAD idea. A good number of people who do this have bad habits that arise that the CFIIs here will tell you they have to break them. Now PIC lugs a simulator (now a TouchTrainer, but it used to be an old ATC 610) out to teach. We did set my laptop with the GNS480 sim up next to it to practice some "button mashing." They do the first lesson (defining the power/control inputs for six regimes of flight) in the sim and then go repeat that in the airplane. Laster lessons do use the simulator for things like setting up holds (because it saves time because you can just pop back to right before the entry) and in my case we did some ADF work as my plane had the ADF replaced by the XMRadio.
 
I'm not talking about Microsoft flight simulator. I'm talking about going and renting time at a red bird simulator with an instructor. I thought that was the only way it was legal
 
What type of sim is it? I have a student who did 20 hours in a Redbird FMX who is now training with me in a C182. It's been a super smooth transition.

The best thing you can do is follow a syllabus. All of the mainstream ones incorporate sim training. PIC has their own syllabus which aim sure would do the same thing.

Don't fly with non-CFIs until you have the fundamentals down. I've seen some massive training disasters from people who have done that and built some incredibly bad habits in the process. Of course, this particular outcome depends on who the safety pilot is.
 
SixPapaCharlie said:
I'm not talking about Microsoft flight simulator. I'm talking about going and renting time at a red bird simulator with an instructor. I thought that was the only way it was legal
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Our club has a full motion Redbird and the IR students start there. A few IR students who own their own IFR equipped planes did otherwise, but those are exceptions.
 
SixPapaCharlie said:
The crux of my question is just wondering about the benefit of starting with a sim. I see them advertised and wonder if there is value in it due to the nature of quickly resetting.
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I found the sim to be useful for a couple of very specific topics in instrument training. Mostly, instrument failures and other emergencies. Repeating an approach quickly was marginal; I didn't find I needed to do that very much.

The sim was useless for Pattern A and Pattern B. And that's where you're going to spend your time if your CFII is worth anything. Once you get THAT down, approaches are cake.

I think every instrument student goes through the "I only need 15 hours of instruction" bit. I sure did. Except I actually got almost all my instruction in a real airplane because that's what was necessary.
 
dell30rb said:
My opinion, don't start with a sim. Use it later if you want some extra practice with nav tools.

The first thing you need to learn is how to fly the airplane by reference to instruments. Climbs, descents, configuration change, turning climbs, turning descents. I would start in the plane.
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This ^^^

Once you have a good grasp on how to fly by reference to instruments (maintain level flight, climbs/descents, do level turns, do climbing/descending turns, and a bit more) in the aircraft, then use of the SIM to learn the basics of intercepting radials, doing holds, setting up your 430W's, and a bit more makes sense.

As Brad said earlier, when at the "can be done in the SIM" stage, a good lesson would be the CFI-I briefing what it is you're going to do that day, practice the lesson topics in the SIM, then going out to fly the same lesson for real. Sim lesson begins setting in the cogitation and muscle memory. Flying it for real helps set it that much harder.
 
SixPapaCharlie said:
I'm not talking about Microsoft flight simulator. I'm talking about going and renting time at a red bird simulator with an instructor. I thought that was the only way it was legal
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Those RedBirds ARE MSFS.

The full motion ones may **** off your instructor. Don't be surprised if he refuses to get in with you. The motion is not right, and makes people sick.
 
Bryan, if I were in you're shoes... I'd go talk to Tamera out at Fox Aviation (Propwash).
 
I've got my CFI selected. I'm good there.
 
When I was getting my IR, a couple of decades ago, I found the simulators at the flight school less than useful, but they were pretty old technology. Absolutely different than flying a real airplane. I mostly flew in my own aircraft and mostly in IMC, which was a big surprise, at first. The school was in Troutdale, Oregon, and the instructor I had preferred to fly in real IMC whenever possible. I recommend that you do as much of this as possible. When you get your rating, you will be comfortable filing and flying in real conditions. Good luck. It is a fun and useful rating.
 
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