Possible Prop Strike

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xt2190

Filing Flight Plan
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xt2190
I am using an alternate account to cover my real identity, as I do not want to make any accusations, nor offend anyone, until I am more confident and ready to start burning bridges.

My plane is (as of last week - WAS) on leaseback. It went in for a 100-hour, no issues observed by the mechanic. Few days later - alternator failure, and the plane went back to the mechanic for a few days.

The day that the alternator was replaced, and pretty much once the plane was ready for pickup, I get a phone call saying that there was definitely some type of a prop strike on my plane, very recently, and someone tried to cover it up. Propeller was bent back into place and the edges were filed down.

If you look closely at the pictures you will see what I am talking about

Just wanted to post this here to see if anyone had a similar experience. My gut tells me it was the mechanic himself, because no one is smart enough to have done such a thing on their own, and it's also not something that someone would've fixed so quickly. No one's kept the plane overnight or for a prolonged time between the last 100-hour and now. But I just don't know.

I did notice that during run up when you add some RPM, the front strut goes down a bit and the attitude decreases. I was thinking that this could be a factor, but more than one mechanic told me that the strut and tire can go flat and the prop will still not hit the ground. We had just added nitrogen in April, but I guess it's time for a refill?

Plane is now going for an engine inspection/teardown. Just a waste of time for no reason. We have insurance, and what's done is done, but at least whoever did it should man up.

I indirectly questioned the last few people who flew (example: how do you do your preflights? Tell me about how you inspect the prop. What did you see the last time you pre flighted) but no luck getting an admission.

Looking forward to your input based on the enclosed pictures. Maybe this isn't as bad as I thought. It would just suck to be planeless for the first summer that I actually own the plane.

Pics: http://imgur.com/a/8AKe5

EDIT: after reading some comments, I'm back to square one. Don't think it was the mechanic, but I did have to keep an open mind and not be too naive.
 
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It definitely sounds (and looks) like there's a rat in the woodpile. How do you propose that the mechanic would have caused this?
 
Sorry to here about your plane. I would think if the engine was running when the blade tip hit whatever it hit there would be more damage than is shown. But we don't know what it looked like when it was damaged. Possibly was damaged on an attempted start up. The question is how did it happen?

I think it needs further inspection...:(

The leading edge of the prop looks to be very pitted by the photos. If the plane just came out of a 100hr inspection and the A&P did not dress the prop I would look for another A&P.

There is no excuse for someone not reporting the incident, some folks just have no class...
 
Ryanb said:
It definitely sounds (and looks) like there's a rat in the woodpile. How do you propose that the mechanic would have caused this?
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No one else has the brains to bend the propeller back into place

AKBill said:
Sorry to here about your plane. I would think if the engine was running when the blade tip hit whatever it hit there would be more damage than is shown. But we don't know what it looked like when it was damaged. Possibly was damaged on an attempted start up. The question is how did it happen?

I think it needs further inspection...:(

The leading edge of the prop looks to be very pitted by the photos. If the plane just came out of a 100hr inspection and the A&P did not dress the prop I would look for another A&P.

There is no excuse for someone not reporting the incident, some folks just have no class...
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Most definitely looks like it was upon startup

I inspected the tow bar, no sign of any strikes
 
Not sure about a prop strike, I've seen those and it's normally not something that could be field fixed that nice.

Almost looks more like gravel or rock damage.

How would the mechanic of caused this? Was he cleared to run the aircraft without someone present? I trust mine and have a great relationship, he's also a good pilot, and I don't even let him fire the engine up.

I'd go through the who's flown it, where it was flown and you'll probably be able to piece it together, maybe BS a little, call the renters up and say someone dodged a landing fee and you want to know where they flew so you can check them off the list of who needs to pay, something like that.
 
James331 said:
Not sure about a prop strike, I've seen those and it's normally not something that could be field fixed that nice.

Almost looks more like gravel or rock damage.

How would the mechanic of caused this? Was he cleared to run the aircraft without someone present? I trust mine and have a great relationship, he's also a good pilot, and I don't even let him fire the engine up.

I'd go through the who's flown it, where it was flown and you'll probably be able to piece it together, maybe BS a little, call the renters up and say someone dodged a landing fee and you want to know where they flew so you can check them off the list of who needs to pay, something like that.
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I have ADSB so I know exactly where the plane has been

Doesn't the mechanic need to start the plane just to test it out as part of the inspection? Confirm no RPM drops, etc

The only reason I suspect it was him is because based on the timing, he's the only one who had the plane the longest and has the right knowledge on how to repair such a thing.

It's only a gut feeling. I'm sure I'm wrong. But I still have to have an open mind because you never know.
 
hotprops said:
leaseback ,o well
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Yeah. I would expect this sort of thing doing a leaseback. The only thing I might concern myself with is the renting agent not knowing who caused it. I might have a talk with them to pay better attention to my property.
 
Minor point of interest; it looks to me like the edges were ground down, not filed. Most likely with an angle grinder. Someone should have seen this if it was hastily done somewhere as it would throw of a fireworks display of sparks. On this item alone I'd suspect the mechanic. Good luck.
 
what does your contract with the FBO state about this ?

I would A - not fly the airplane - and B - make sure that you don't until a proper inspection is made.

The issue here is going to be proving when the damage occurred. Something like this should be glaring on a pre-flight. Please tell me you caught it before you flew the airplane - it should have been caught on a pre-flight before any engine start.

Your mechanic has insurance and it would stupid to the point of insanity to try to cover something like this up because if something inside the motor is damaged - and you have an unplanned landing- and get killed- the liability then jumps through the roof.

Do you have a tow bar - is it yours still? Check the tow bar very carefully . . .

Good luck.
 
Could it have been run up in a dirtier part of the ramp somewhere? Maybe not a full strike, but little pebbles and other debris to ding up the blade tips that someone tried to fix up? Someone wasn't paying attention and overshot a turn while taxxing?

One of the things that is great about ADS-B, like you said, is being able to know exactly where your plane has been. A good engine monitor would also be good so you could periodically download the data and see how people run the plane. The JPI in particular would show great CHT data, etc.

If I ever purchase I've thought about the leaseback route... seems like it could be a great way to offset some costs (or even make a little money) but people who rent planes really abuse them. I've come out to the club planes and seen how sloppily they were left (avionics master on (mast batt off), tie downs very loose, control lock not put in place, pitot cover left off, covers left off... heck I even came out there once and the door was ajar).. makes you wonder how they are flown. If I ever had it on leaseback I'd probably have some draconian limits, no students, not PPL training, no soft field, minimum hour requirements, etc.... which, at that point.. why even bother? No one will want to rent from a curmudgeon!
 
xt2190 said:
I have ADSB so I know exactly where the plane has been

Doesn't the mechanic need to start the plane just to test it out as part of the inspection? Confirm no RPM drops, etc

...
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Lol, you got waaaay too much faith in that ADSB box, lots of places the plane can go VFR where it won't show up.

As far as the mechanic, yes and no
 
James331 said:
Lol, you got waaaay too much faith in that ADSB box, lots of places the plane can go VFR where it won't show up.

As far as the mechanic, yes and no
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if you turn the GPS to ALT - you cannot hide. It broadcasts and you can find pretty much all VFR flights on flightaware . . .
 
comanchepilot said:
if you turn the GPS to ALT - you cannot hide. It broadcasts and you can find pretty much all VFR flights on flightaware . . .
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Mmmk

Many places where there are gravel strips your ADSB might not work as you think.
 
James331 said:
Mmmk

Many places where there are gravel strips your ADSB might not work as you think.
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doesn't matter - to or from the grass or gravel strip they have to pass through the home airport - and only so many people do that.
 
comanchepilot said:
if you turn the GPS to ALT - you cannot hide. It broadcasts and you can find pretty much all VFR flights on flightaware . . .
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Joe, I've flown lots of ADS-B flights VFR, where there is excellent reception from UAT towers, and excellent TIS-B into and out of my plane. I've cruised up high, into and out of Class C airports, etc., and my last flight that showed up in Flightaware was in 2011. As best as I know, flightaware, ADS-B or not, only captures your flight if you are on an IFR flight plan, or a VFR flight plan if you are "in the system". What am I missing?
 
JohnAJohnson said:
Joe, I've flown lots of ADS-B flights VFR, where there is excellent reception from UAT towers, and excellent TIS-B into and out of my plane. I've cruised up high, into and out of Class C airports, etc., and my last flight that showed up in Flightaware was in 2011. As best as I know, flightaware, ADS-B or not, only captures your flight if you are on an IFR flight plan, or a VFR flight plan if you are "in the system". What am I missing?
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Flight Aware made a change not too long ago that you have to "opt-in" to see he VFR flights. They call "position-only flights".

I would however argue that there are plenty of places without ADS-B coverage. I don't know about your airport specifically but I can depart from mine and fly plenty of places without any coverage. I know this because if you call Center they will tell you they don't have any radar in that area. If however you have good coverage at your airport, as you say, you would at least see them depart and arrive back.


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk
 
Heftiger said:
Flight Aware made a change not too long ago that you have to "opt-in" to see he VFR flights. They call "position-only flights".

I would however argue that there are plenty of places without ADS-B coverage. I don't know about your airport specifically but I can depart from mine and fly plenty of places without any coverage. I know this because if you call Center they will tell you they don't have any radar in that area. If however you have good coverage at your airport, as you say, you would at least see them depart and arrive back.


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk
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Thanks Hef. I just checked flightaware and I am opted in. When I go XC, Memphis Center picks me up around 4500' AGL and am in radar contact for the rest of the flight. But if flightaware is using ADS-B, I am visible to a UAT tower at 800' AGL, and usually stay visible for the rest of the flight. Even a local cruise at 1000' AGL gives me a reliable ADS-B report (PAPRR) from the FAA, so my ADS-B position is being reported and received. Is there anything else you know of that could cause me to not get recorded by flightaware?
 
xt2190 said:
No one else has the brains to bend the propeller back into place
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Why do you believe that nobody else other than a mechanic is smart enough to bend the prop tip back into place? Not getting caught is a pretty good motivator for people to think and act quickly to cover their tracks. I'm also curious how you came to the conclusion that anything was bent back into place? I don't see any solid evidence of that from the pictures.

Both tips definitely look like they sustained some damage, whether it came solely from a file or the filing happened afterward to cover up what happened previously. Is there any chance someone might have taxied it from grass to pavement and the height difference between the concrete and grass nicked the prop? The aforementioned tow bar is also a prime suspect.

With the pathetic filing job and the lack of dressing the leading edge of the prop I can't imagine any mechanic would do such lousy work. I think I'd start the investigation elsewhere.
 
James331 said:
Not sure about a prop strike, I've seen those and it's normally not something that could be field fixed that nice.

Almost looks more like gravel or rock damage.

How would the mechanic of caused this? Was he cleared to run the aircraft without someone present? I trust mine and have a great relationship, he's also a good pilot, and I don't even let him fire the engine up.

I'd go through the who's flown it, where it was flown and you'll probably be able to piece it together, maybe BS a little, call the renters up and say someone dodged a landing fee and you want to know where they flew so you can check them off the list of who needs to pay, something like that.
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I'll agree with James, looks like it could be gravel or even heavy sand. My time flying in Alaska I learned many things can damage a prop. Even muddy water on a gravel runway can ding up a prop.

Good luck to ya, I hope you solve the mystery.
 
From you photos it is difficult to determine what caused this, but I would check for gear and engine mount damage.
 
Clip4 said:
From you photos it is difficult to determine what caused this, but I would check for gear and engine mount damage.
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On this note I would also be looking for gear damage as well as any sign of a runway excursion. It may be worthwhile to call the FBOs or airfield operations people to see if they had seen any excursions recently. You might be surprised about how much people see that doesn't get reported. Also look into the weather history on the days it was flown to see if high crosswinds were a factor. Those can increase the chances for runway excursions quite a bit based on my anecdotal evidence witnessing them over the years.
 
I would just be damn sure it wasn't someone else before you light up the mechanic, aviation is a small community and making accusations of this caliber likely will have repercussions, it may prove difficult to find someone to work on your plan after this, might even effect who wants to do a lease back with you.
 
Tip damage from gravel is common. It could be bumping the tip with a tool cart in the hangar. The idea that it was bent and then bent back sounds like a conspiracy theory.
 
tehmightypirate said:
Minor point of interest; it looks to me like the edges were ground down, not filed. Most likely with an angle grinder. Someone should have seen this if it was hastily done somewhere as it would throw of a fireworks display of sparks. On this item alone I'd suspect the mechanic. Good luck.
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Sparks? Care to explain how grinding aluminum causes sparks?
 
Probably not the mechanic. He'd have dressed the edges (and should have!) and nobody would have noticed. That tip job looks like it was done by somebody that didn't know what he was doing.
 
Harold Rutila said:
On this note I would also be looking for gear damage as well as any sign of a runway excursion. It may be worthwhile to call the FBOs or airfield operations people to see if they had seen any excursions recently. You might be surprised about how much people see that doesn't get reported. Also look into the weather history on the days it was flown to see if high crosswinds were a factor. Those can increase the chances for runway excursions quite a bit based on my anecdotal evidence witnessing them over the years.
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Good point, it could be a landing light strike.
 
Someone has taken a grinder to the prop. Notice the swirled pattern
 
yetti said:
Someone has taken a grinder to the prop. Notice the swirled pattern
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I dunno about that. I think you're seeing lighting variations. I can clearly see the orderly spaced ridges on the prop tip that occur when a single cut file is drawn across the workpiece at an angle.

Of course while that's OK for removing material quickly, most craftsmen then change the file angle and remove the ridges for a smooth finished surface. That didn't occur here.
 
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I'm back to square one. I have less reason to believe it was the mechanic. I just found it suspicious that he didn't call me until everything was ready, and that this is the conclusion that he is sticking to. Refuses to believe that anything else caused this.

Thanks for all your responses.
 
Are we sure beavers didn't mistake it for a wooden prop? because no offense to the mechanic(s)..... but my lawnmower blades look better than that after I sharpen them.
 
James331 said:
Not sure about a prop strike, I've seen those and it's normally not something that could be field fixed that nice.

Almost looks more like gravel or rock damage.
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Look at the tip again. It's not straight. The chord line of the blade has been distorted and is now crooked. It hit something substantial, not gravel.
 
Dan Thomas said:
Look at the tip again. It's not straight. The chord line of the blade has been distorted and is now crooked. It hit something substantial, not gravel.
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You would be surprised at what gravel, or little rocks can do, even water for that matter.

A full on prop strike often is a little more dramatic

hqdefault.jpg
 
arguing about how much of a strike it was is irrelevant, a prop strike is a prop strike. to me it looks like the "repair" was done by a total hack, not a A&P.
 
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