Possible PD flying outside bravo towards bravo?

[asicer]

From the May 2018 issue of Flying Magazine:

Then I turned hard west, called up the tower at KMYF and was cleared for a squeaky-clean wheel landing. Pretty much a perfect morning flight! Well, it was perfect until I started taxiing back to the hangar and ground control told me they had a number for me to call for a possible pilot deviation. Exhilaration turned to dread.

...<talking to ATC on the phone>...

"Well," he said, "for that, let me transfer you to the guy who was tracking you." The third guy was even nicer than the other two. He emphatically explained that I did not actually bust the Bravo. I was always legal. It's just that since I was barreling straight ahead, aiming for San Diego International Airport and not talking to anyone, they had to assume I was clueless and would just keep going on a collision course with the jet above me descending on final approach. That's why they sent the Airbus around.

I guess flight following under and around class B is a good thing.

 

[Velocity173]

Sent an Airbus around for a possible intruder that never happened??? I used to go right up against the northern / eastern edge of the SAN SFC-100 all the time without talking to anyone. Got at least a 3-4 mile buffer there.

I can see that as a high “CA CA” area but I would hope they would monitor the situation closely before sending jets around.

 

[MauleSkinner]

Sounds like he was tracking right under the final approach path, and the 'bus would have potentially descended into him if he had actually been clueless...interesting.

 

[Clark1961]

Thought crime. ATC guy thought a Bravo bust might happen....

 

[RyanB]

So what was the need to give him a number for a PD if nothing actually occurred?

 

[mscard88]

So what was the need to give him a number for a PD if nothing actually occurred?

Yeah. Could have caused an anxiety attack or something!

 

[Shepherd]

It's California where "almost" counts as a micro-aggression and must be dealt with, harshly.
All hail, California.

 

[Zeldman]

Wow... I walked into the bank yesterday and went straight to the teller. Scary.

 

[arnoha]

Dunno about SAN, but around here near SFO, the routes in and out of the major airports have been tweaked several times since the borders of the Bravo and Charlie have been set. They're working to redo the airspace, but that takes years. The new routes are either more efficient or quieter, but don't have the same margin they used to from the borders. SJC and OAK are worse than SFO, as I'm frequently being vectored while on FF well outside the approach paths for either. If I wasn't on FF, it would be the big jets being vectored. For SFO, it's the departures that are often climbing faster and turning elsewhere from what was originally anticipated decades ago. Wouldn't surprise me if the current routes into SAN are similar and the edges of the Bravo are more critical than they used to be.

 

[Tantalum]

They seem very paranoid about busts around the San Diego area. I've never had that situation the OP quoted, but ATC does seem more vigilant confirming headings, altitudes, VOR radials, etc

Unless you are really just doing the La Jolla coastal route or going out to a practice area I really don't understand why everyone doesn't just use flight following

micro-aggression

#safespace

 

[bobmrg]

I hate it when a controller says "...I'm not talking to him." If you have a radio, use it to help others with their own situational awareness. I'm not going to guess what the pilot in this situation should have said or who he should have said it to, but acting NORDO when you have radios is silly.

Bob

 

[Eric Gleason]

I hate it when a controller says "...I'm not talking to him." If you have a radio, use it to help others with their own situational awareness. I'm not going to guess what the pilot in this situation should have said or who he should have said it to, but acting NORDO when you have radios is silly.

Bob

The only times VFR traffic is going to be talking to the same controller you are is if they're getting flight following through the area or arriving/departing the same airport. There are lots of airports around and lots of perfectly valid reasons not to participate when in uncontrolled airspace.

The FARs are restrictive enough already. Let's not make them more so. As more of the fleet installs ADS-B this will be less of a problem anyway.

 

[kyleb]

As more of the fleet installs ADS-B this will be less of a problem anyway.

How? You're clear of the airspace, talking to nobody, and the controller still has no idea what you're doing.

 

[Fearless Tower]

Sent an Airbus around for a possible intruder that never happened??? I used to go right up against the northern / eastern edge of the SAN SFC-100 all the time without talking to anyone. Got at least a 3-4 mile buffer there.

Yeah, I’m not understanding this one, even in SoCal. There is plenty of buffer. No need to send somebody around just because they are ‘approaching’ the edge.

 

[Fearless Tower]

It's California where "almost" counts as a micro-aggression and must be dealt with, harshly.
All hail, California.

Jokes aside, ATC in SoCal tends to be a lot more reasonable than many other parts of the country. I’d take SoCal over N90 any day .

 

[Fearless Tower]

How? You're clear of the airspace, talking to nobody, and the controller still has no idea what you're doing.

Exactly. And on top of that, there is still plenty of ‘dead’ areas where traffic doesn’t show even if you have ADS-B

 

[Eric Gleason]

Exactly. And on top of that, there is still plenty of ‘dead’ areas where traffic doesn’t show even if you have ADS-B

I didn't say it was going to fix all problems, just that it will be less of a problem.

Do you guys really think that ADS-B and the preponderance of traffic displays don't offer an improvement on the old situation?

 

[N3368K]

A retired FedEx Captain said they were sometimes cleared to descend below the 3000’ floor of KMEM Class B for visual approach for certainly approaches. Perhaps that was the case here so they were concerned.

I’ve been under 1800’ floor of KMEM Class B in my Cub enroute to Hernando Airpark (H75)and watched heavy traffic crossing above me. I usually stay at least 500’ below floor when doing it Frequently wondered if a Cub that far out and that low even show on radar.


Sent from my iPad using Tapatalk

 

[Fearless Tower]

I didn't say it was going to fix all problems, just that it will be less of a problem.

Do you guys really think that ADS-B and the preponderance of traffic displays don't offer an improvement on the old situation?

I never said it wasn’t an improvement. It is....so long as we maintain terrestrial radar to cover the gaps. But it has been waaaay over-hyped by the government.

ADS-B is the government’s cheap solution to address the degrading radar infrastructure and it has holes.

 

[Fearless Tower]

A retired FedEx Captain said they were sometimes cleared to descend below the 3000’ floor of KMEM Class B for visual approach for certainly approaches. Perhaps that was the case here so they were concerned.

Not likely there. Due to the city/terrain, there is nothing to gain by descending them early on the approach there. Plus, that would directly conflict with the VFR traffic that frequently travels through that corridor between SEE and SDM.

 

[Let'sgoflying!]

Sir, can I expect you to almost violate me if I almost break one of your rules?

 

[MD11Pilot]

We had several pilots violated in MEM because of this clearance. Exceeding 200 knots below the floor of Class B. Who in the world keeps a chart out at 4 AM when you’re CLEARED to an altitude by ATC! Some level of reasonableness should be applied in this case. The way we were cleared meant going from Class B and then back in in a space of about three miles. It was like they sat there and was watching for us....I know after a friend was violated, I always asked if this was below class B. We are very busy trying to configure, get down and find the airport during the Fed Ex outbound rush. Made me less agreeable to ATC requests.

The floor goes from 4 to 3 to 1800. We would be cleared to altitude below three and cleared for the approach. We approached at 250 kts and slowed just before the FAF.

Were we wrong? Yes, but a simple “hey, check the speed below the floor” would have gotten a “oops, thanks” and a lot of good will during a busy time. It messes them up when you slow to 200 kts way out. I actually had them ask me to speed up and I said not until I am in the 1800 foot floor area.

 

[Capt. Geoffrey Thorpe]

Do you guys really think that ADS-B and the preponderance of traffic displays don't offer an improvement on the old situation?

What information would ATC have received from ADS-B that would have made any difference in the original scenario?

 

[luvflyin]

From the May 2018 issue of Flying Magazine:



I guess flight following under and around class B is a good thing.

Is there a link to the entire article

 

[Topper]

I am only posting this for the benefit of the newer pilots that may not realize it. When I trained, we only requested flight following for cross country. Since I mostly only fly cc and IFR, I feel like I am doing something wrong when I Sam not talking to atc. If I am going up and staying longer cal, but more than pattern work, I check in with atc. They give a squawk and know where I am and have at least a vague idea of what I am doing. The help keep me separated from other traffic.

I agree with Bob, it is annoying when atc tells me they have traffic that they are not talking to and have no idea what they are doing.

Jim

 

[asicer]

Is there a link to the entire article

Not yet. As far as I know, it's in the print magazine only or online subscribers only at this point in time.

 

[Lowflynjack]

I am only posting this for the benefit of the newer pilots that may not realize it. When I trained, we only requested flight following for cross country. Since I mostly only fly cc and IFR, I feel like I am doing something wrong when I Sam not talking to atc. If I am going up and staying longer cal, but more than pattern work, I check in with atc. They give a squawk and know where I am and have at least a vague idea of what I am doing. The help keep me separated from other traffic.

I agree with Bob, it is annoying when atc tells me they have traffic that they are not talking to and have no idea what they are doing.

Jim

You agree with Bob that the other planes should be talking to ATC? It seems a lot of people think this way. I don't. I fly VFR only, and I've been known to fly over the top of a controlled airport, or just out of their airspace. Honestly, I will call them most of the time to let them know I'm there, even though I'm not in their airspace. However, I have no obligation to, and some snippy controllers have even told me I'm above their airspace.

I think it's funny in our society, not just in flying, that we set limits and then complain when people adhere to them. I put up a fence, but then get upset when you get to close to it. The fence is the boundary, but why are you so close to it? There's a bottom to the outer rings of Class B & C airspace which allows us to go under, but people complain when pilots do so without communication. Why don't we just make it go to the ground and force them? This example is crazy. We thought you were going to bust airspace, so give us a call. I would have been livid... call you because I did nothing wrong? "Can I have your supervisor's number please?"

 

[N3368K]

The floor goes from 4 to 3 to 1800. We would be cleared to altitude below three and cleared for the approach. We approached at 250 kts and slowed just before the FAF.

We were based at 54M right where floor goes from 3 to 4K'. I was surprised but it sure made me pay much more attention when I saw a heavy inbound knowing they might actually be under the floor. I've since moved to 01TN which is inside KOLV Class D and even closer to MEM. It can get pretty busy.

 

[danhagan]

Jokes aside, ATC in SoCal tends to be a lot more reasonable than many other parts of the country. I’d take SoCal over N90 any day .

Not just reasonable, they're a lot BETTER than most other areas. My easiest flights were in the SoCal area, controllers really knew their stuff and were always offering additional assistance in the way of a vector or short cut.

 

[Shawn]

I think it's funny in our society, not just in flying, that we set limits and then complain when people adhere to them. I put up a fence, but then get upset when you get to close to it. The fence is the boundary, but why are you so close to it? There's a bottom to the outer rings of Class B & C airspace which allows us to go under, but people complain when pilots do so without communication. Why don't we just make it go to the ground and force them? This example is crazy. We thought you were going to bust airspace, so give us a call. I would have been livid... call you because I did nothing wrong? "Can I have your supervisor's number please?"

The OP's scenario was in a situation that caused a go around of a commercial airliner on an instrument approach obviously ignorant of the traffic flows in and out of the airport and his position in relation to that. The call was most likely not to bust him of being too close to Bravo, but to be made aware of where he was in relation to approach and departure paths. One thing I learned during the TRACON tour is that if a VFR target is converging the cannot assume what the target will do, they have to plan for the worst without knowing intentions. If you do not know that information or are not of FF to find out that, you have failed the BASIC responsibility of being familiar with ALL aspect of the flight...which INCLUDES arrival and departure corridors. Arrogance can get you killed. Failure to understand that basic concept IS doing something wrong IMO.

Like flying through an active MOA...just cuz you can does not mean you should. Based on your argument we should just make B, C and D airspace bigger to define where those lines are to protect arrivals and departures.

SoCal is on a mission to get MORE pilots to participate to avoid deviations just like this. Sorry if "turn 10 degrees left for traffic" to keep you from bending metal is too much government control for you.

 

[denverpilot]

Anyone think MAYBE the Airbus was about to come OUT of the Bravo and the controllers just fell prey to the "little airplane must be wrong" syndrome?

We see it southeast of DEN... set up a nice gradual descent on a visual and not pay attention to what's on the plate... your airliner just exited the protected airspace...

 

[Pilawt]

I used to be based at KVUO in Vancouver WA, which lies under the approach to Portland's 10L and is nearly parallel to it. KVUO is in a Class E cut-out under a shelf of the Portland Class C. Frequently VFR departures from KVUO runway 26 would trigger RA's in airliners on the 10L approach, even when everybody was 100% legal in their own airspace. I'm told that some carriers' procedures require an immediate missed approach if that happens, even if the crew has the VFR traffic in sight. It's inconvenient and expensive, so ATC requests KVUO traffic to land and take off in the same direction as Portland's traffic flow, whenever possible.

Sometimes, though, KVUO can have a prevailing west-northwest wind, while KPDX, just three miles away, is getting the east-wind outflow from the Columbia Gorge. It gets interesting.

 

[jkaduk]

SoCal reeeaally wants you to talk to you. In San we have essentially only two ways to come and go. Otherwise it's ocean to the west, Mexico to the south. The class B is complicated and you can't help but get close to where you don't belong. The guy handling Lindbergh finals also handles the final for 3 other airports, one being Miramar with a mix of high speed jets, Ospreys and Choppers. Their safety guy has been to our club meetings several times and he makes it sound like the wild west out there.

 

[Lowflynjack]

The OP's scenario was in a situation that caused a go around of a commercial airliner on an instrument approach obviously ignorant of the traffic flows in and out of the airport and his position in relation to that. The call was most likely not to bust him of being too close to Bravo, but to be made aware of where he was in relation to approach and departure paths. One thing I learned during the TRACON tour is that if a VFR target is converging the cannot assume what the target will do, they have to plan for the worst without knowing intentions. If you do not know that information or are not of FF to find out that, you have failed the BASIC responsibility of being familiar with ALL aspect of the flight...which INCLUDES arrival and departure corridors. Arrogance can get you killed. Failure to understand that basic concept IS doing something wrong IMO.

Like flying through an active MOA...just cuz you can does not mean you should. Based on your argument we should just make B, C and D airspace bigger to define where those lines are to protect arrivals and departures.

SoCal is on a mission to get MORE pilots to participate to avoid deviations just like this. Sorry if "turn 10 degrees left for traffic" to keep you from bending metal is too much government control for you.

Wow, hit a nerve did I? I don't think we need more government control, but why is the airspace there? It's to keep me out without their control, right? So if this guy stays out of that area that is charted, he did nothing wrong and did not fail at anything and has no obligation to talk to the controller. You are supposed to establish contact before entering, but he had no intention to enter. What if a plane decides to circle just outside of the airspace off of the approach end? Would they divert all traffic? The airspace is designed to give the airliners enough room to descend and remain in controlled area the whole time. I'm not being arrogant on this one, but the facts are a plane not in controlled airspace can't be expected to call ATC... they are well within their rights not to. I understand this situation caused some concern and they took the proper action, but even they agreed he technically did nothing wrong.

 

[mscard88]

I agree with Jack. When I flew in and out of ATL it was common for ATC to issue traffic below us on final, below the TCA, I mean Class B. Never heard ATC issue a number to call.

 

[Shawn]

The airspace is designed to give the airliners enough room to descend and remain in controlled area the whole time.

That is the assumption that is incorrect which is what struck my nerve. IFR arrivals and departures extend WELL outside C, D and B airspace. If a pilot chooses not to participate in FF in busy airspace and doing circles in the approach path of a commercial airport because they failed to properly brief the airspace, that is only gonna lead to an expansion of the controlled airspace if more and more pilots take that mentality...even though it is perfectly legal.

 

[Jumpmaster]

I used to be based at KVUO in Vancouver WA, which lies under the approach to Portland's 10L and is nearly parallel to it. KVUO is in a Class E cut-out under a shelf of the Portland Class C. Frequently VFR departures from KVUO runway 26 would trigger RA's in airliners on the 10L approach, even when everybody was 100% legal in their own airspace. I'm told that some carriers' procedures require an immediate missed approach if that happens, even if the crew has the VFR traffic in sight. It's inconvenient and expensive, so ATC requests KVUO traffic to land and take off in the same direction as Portland's traffic flow, whenever possible.

Sometimes, though, KVUO can have a prevailing west-northwest wind, while KPDX, just three miles away, is getting the east-wind outflow from the Columbia Gorge. It gets interesting.

View attachment 61775

I fly around KPDX 4-5 times a year and the controllers there can be a bit twitchy. Several times they have told VFR traffic they cannot enter KPDX airspace without specific clearance, even though its a Class Charlie. Even though I keep well clear of the Class Charlie airspace, I’ve gotten vectors and altitude limits several times - including when I have been on the south side of Mt. Hood. What I gather, there are limited approaches into KPDX for the big iron and they want to give them as much space as possible.

 

[Topper]

You agree with Bob that the other planes should be talking to ATC? It seems a lot of people think this way. I don't. I fly VFR only, and I've been known to fly over the top of a controlled airport, or just out of their airspace. Honestly, I will call them most of the time to let them know I'm there, even though I'm not in their airspace. However, I have no obligation to, and some snippy controllers have even told me I'm above their airspace.

I think it's funny in our society, not just in flying, that we set limits and then complain when people adhere to them. I put up a fence, but then get upset when you get to close to it. The fence is the boundary, but why are you so close to it? There's a bottom to the outer rings of Class B & C airspace which allows us to go under, but people complain when pilots do so without communication. Why don't we just make it go to the ground and force them? This example is crazy. We thought you were going to bust airspace, so give us a call. I would have been livid... call you because I did nothing wrong? "Can I have your supervisor's number please?"

No, I agree with Bob that it is annoying when the controller has traffic they are not talking to. Feel free to fly how you want, I am not an advocate of more regulation. I prefer the extra margin of safety I perceive that I get by talking to atc. I also perceive that there would be an additional safety margin if everyone voluntarily talked to atc, ymmv.

My flying may diffe from yours, I am almost always ifr and typically above vfr traffic except when departing and landing. Nothing against vfr guys not talking other than it is annoying sometimes when I hav to adjust my route becasuse no one knows what they are up to. Willing to be annoyed so we can all have the freedom to fly as we desire.

 

[NoHeat]

there is still plenty of ‘dead’ areas where traffic doesn’t show even if you have ADS-B

Are you saying that traffic sometimes vanishes from ADS-B as seen by ATC? I did not know that could happen, except at low altitudes where a line-of-sight with towers is lost.

 

[Lindberg]

That is the assumption that is incorrect which is what struck my nerve. IFR arrivals and departures extend WELL outside C, D and B airspace. If a pilot chooses not to participate in FF in busy airspace and doing circles in the approach path of a commercial airport because they failed to properly brief the airspace, that is only gonna lead to an expansion of the controlled airspace if more and more pilots take that mentality...even though it is perfectly legal.

What if they know where the approach paths are, and they circle there anyway? What FAR are you going to misapply to them? The last time I came close to being run over by a 737, I WAS on flight following. When I called up approach to make sure I was still recieving him, he claimed he had called me up and terminated services "just a minute ago." Funny that was the only transmission that wasn't loud and clear and he didn't think it odd I didn't acknowledge or change my squawk.....