Popup or Call FSS?

[Tokirbymd]

Situation- VFR forecast. Mid flight (2-3 facilities down the line and 2-3 more to go) weather starts turning broken to OVC at destination. Decide you need to file IFR. Currently with TRACON. Do you call them up and ask for pop up? Do you call FSS? I've heard that TRACON doesn't want to give you popup if you're going far outside of their facility as they don't have time to record all the SAR info and hard for them to input it. Centers may be more willing. I know the argument of filing initially but had other reasons not to depart IFR. As for filing and picking up later- 3 facilities down the line and they would have a harder time finding your IFR plan. In my case, I had a bit of time and decided to call FSS. This was the result. I was somewhat disappointed with the difficulty of the process, having grown accustomed to a button click in FF to file. One tip someone told me after this, to file IFR- but on initial contact tell them you'll stay VFR. Then if you need to convert back the info is still in the system. Is there a username or something similar you could tell FSS that would store all of the SAR, ICAO info so that all you needed was souls, fuel, time, route?

 

[Salty]

It sure I understand the issue with asking for a pop up.

 

[PaulS]

I just ask whoever I'm talking to for a pop up, haven't been refused yet. If it happens, I'll deal with it. I try to understand the weather before I leave the ground. If there is any question I won't be able to finish a flight VFR, I'll file and pick it up.

 

[OneCharlieTango]

Filing and then telling them you’re VFR is unnecessarily complicated. If you want to make sure all of your info is ready to go, just file a VFR flight plan. Then get a pop up when you need it. Or skip the flight plan altogether and grab a pop up when you need it.

 

[midlifeflyer]

Filing and then telling them you’re VFR is unnecessarily complicated. If you want to make sure all of your info is ready to go, just file a VFR flight plan. Then get a pop up when you need it. Or skip the flight plan altogether and grab a pop up when you need it.

How is a VFR flight plan ATC never sees relevant?

Edit: I though more about it - you have a great point. It's not relevant to ATC but if you filed VFR and are told to contact Flight Service to file IFR, it's just a matter of them pulling up your VFR flight plan and mending it to IFR.

 

[midlifeflyer]

It sure I understand the issue with asking for a pop up.

I asked @Tokirbymd about that in his Facebook post. Independent of his story, I have heard of others recently where ATC tells the pilot to call Flight Service and file. Might be before or after receiving the clearance. Might be facility or workload specific. Might have to do with whether one crosses facilities.

But most of Tyler's problem was lousy com. Aside from that, the only real difference between oral filing before and after ICAO is the equipment codes.

I'm working on a hypothesis that on-the-fly oral filing can be greatly simplified by using only the minimal amount of codes needed to fill in the required blanks. Know them and have them available and if "contact Flight Service" happens, you are much more prepared.

 

[luvflyin]

Situation- VFR forecast. Mid flight (2-3 facilities down the line and 2-3 more to go) weather starts turning broken to OVC at destination. Decide you need to file IFR. Currently with TRACON. Do you call them up and ask for pop up? Do you call FSS? I've heard that TRACON doesn't want to give you popup if you're going far outside of their facility as they don't have time to record all the SAR info and hard for them to input it. Centers may be more willing. I know the argument of filing initially but had other reasons not to depart IFR. As for filing and picking up later- 3 facilities down the line and they would have a harder time finding your IFR plan. In my case, I had a bit of time and decided to call FSS. This was the result. I was somewhat disappointed with the difficulty of the process, having grown accustomed to a button click in FF to file. One tip someone told me after this, to file IFR- but on initial contact tell them you'll stay VFR. Then if you need to convert back the info is still in the system. Is there a username or something similar you could tell FSS that would store all of the SAR, ICAO info so that all you needed was souls, fuel, time, route?

I don’t have much to add to what you already knew and has been added so far above. But on that you were still monitoring the Flight Following frequency and it was interfering your talking to Radio, just tell Approach/Center you’re going off frequency for a bit to do whatever, in this case file a Flight Plan. I do that when they’re really busy and them and the planes won’t shut up for even a few seconds just to get the ATIS.

 

[Tokirbymd]

How is a VFR flight plan ATC never sees relevant?

Edit: I though more about it - you have a great point. It's not relevant to ATC but if you filed VFR and are told to contact Flight Service to file IFR, it's just a matter of them pulling up your VFR flight plan and mending it to IFR.

This is actually a great idea and I've never thought of it that way.

 

[Tokirbymd]

I asked @Tokirbymd about that in his Facebook post. Independent of his story, I have heard of others recently where ATC tells the pilot to call Flight Service and file. Might be before or after receiving the clearance. Might be facility or workload specific. Might have to do with whether one crosses facilities.

But most of Tyler's problem was lousy com. Aside from that, the only real difference between oral filing before and after ICAO is the equipment codes.

I'm working on a hypothesis that on-the-fly oral filing can be greatly simplified by using only the minimal amount of codes needed to fill in the required blanks. Know them and have them available and if "contact Flight Service" happens, you are much more prepared.

I'd be curious to see what minimal codes you would add. For me would want to be able to accept a STAR, fly an LPV or ILS, and tell them I have ADS-B in/out. That would require at a minimum- Equip- BGRS; Surv-B2 E; PBN- D2 may be all you need?. Still not sure that this is really much shorter than going to your foreflight aircraft page and reading off the letter/numbers you have previously entered there though. Either way is a lot more than simply /G.

 

[4CornerFlyer]

I have found it useful to tell ATC that I am on an active VFR flight plan when requesting pop-up IFR. This seems to preclude questions for search and rescue purposes. I have never been asked about equipment, since it really doesn't matter. This of course assumes you have filed the VFR flight plan.
Jon

 

[NealRomeoGolf]

In the past year I've had my IR I've only not filed IFR twice. Once was for MEA reasons and the other was for simplicity on a CAVU day. I guess I just hate the thought of having to get a pop up. I don't mind flying in the system so I just keep doing it.

 

[midlifeflyer]

I'd be curious to see what minimal codes you would add. For me would want to be able to accept a STAR, fly an LPV or ILS, and tell them I have ADS-B in/out. That would require at a minimum- Equip- BGRS; Surv-B2 E; PBN- D2 may be all you need?. Still not sure that this is really much shorter than going to your foreflight aircraft page and reading off the letter/numbers you have previously entered there though. Either way is a lot more than simply /G.

I already know that ATC will not refuse an RNAV approach based on the lack of a code. As a light GA single pilot in an unexpected pop-up situation, I don't particularly care about RNAV STAR or T-Route. My priority is to get enough in there using up as little time and mental bandwidth as I can while appeasing the filing gods. The rest I can negotiate with ATC if necessary.

That's the simplest equivalent of /G. To me, subject to being proven wrong, it's just SG/[XPDR-ADSB Code] in Box 10. No PBN at all.

So, flying one of the airplanes with a Mode C transponder and ADSB UAT out, just it's SG/U1. "Equipment code Sierra Golf Slash Uniform 1." if you happen to actually have extended squitter and both in and out, I bet no one will care, least of all ATC.

 

[Clip4]

With the technology we enjoy today, there is really no excuse for not getting a very good pre flight weather briefing and monitoring weather 100 miles forward during the flight. This allow the pilot to make a I want an clearance call with FSS vs the rookie to have clearance call to ATC.

 

[Tokirbymd]

With the technology we enjoy today, there is really no excuse for not getting a very good pre flight weather briefing and monitoring weather 100 miles forward during the flight. This allow the pilot to make a I want an clearance call with FSS vs the rookie to have clearance call to ATC.

so in this case the forecast weather was SCT and VFR the whole way just prior to takeoff. Enroute weather started to deteriorate but yes with ADSB weather I was able to see this while still 100m from the destination allowing adequate time for options.

 

[Country Flier]

I've gotten pop-ups several times...maybe I've been lucky, but it has always been super easy to do. I've always thought they would ask "souls on board" type questions, but they never have. Maybe because I've always done them within 50 miles or so of my destination? IDK...but, I've never considered getting a pop-up clearance a "rookie" move.

 

[Clip4]

so in this case the forecast weather was SCT and VFR the whole way just prior to takeoff. Enroute weather started to deteriorate but yes with ADSB weather I was able to see this while still 100m from the destination allowing adequate time for options.

The tread title was pop up or call FSS. ATC’s job description is not accepting flight plans. ATC provides for pop ups in the interest of promoting safety. The proper procedure is FSS. I didn’t watch the video.

 

[TommyG]

It would be great with the technology like adsb a flight plan can be filed in flight electronically. Sure if your low enough and have cell service you can do it through ForeFlight.

 

[Chip Sylverne]

I have been told that if you have a Leidos account, the FSS can get your ICAO info from your tail number, easing the process. Don't know, haven't tried it. most of my flights are through the SFRA, and you have to ground file anyway.

 

[Llewtrah381]

(Not) sure I understand the issue with asking for a pop up.

One issue I’ve run into when doing so is ATC asking for my full name and phone number over the radio for the world to hear. Probably not a huge deal but in this day and age of liveATC.net, etc., that feels…”uncomfortable”. Have had that happen several times.

And I’m not typically a popup-clearance kinda guy: I pretty much always file and fly IFR but on some occasions either I didn’t notice that I messed up loading it into Leidos or went past the valid time.

Sometimes I feel like they’re asking for that just to dissuade the behavior - which is effective.

 

[cowman]

So most of the time if there's any doubt at all, I just file IFR from the start. However, the one time I did need it I was near my destination and saw that what had been a layer of "few" had turned into broken underneath me so I asked and received with no fuss.

 

[hindsight2020]

I've never had issues getting a pop up while already on flight following. And in further support of that, unless I missed it, the OP didn't either. He was already on flight following and ATC didn't tell him to go get bent. Video is an example of a solution looking for a problem.

 

[PastZTL]

I can't recall ever sending someone to FSS to file a FP. In defense of the terminal guys, their equipment was not laid out as conducive as ours for inputting FP information (it could be different now).

 

[luvflyin]

I can't recall ever sending someone to FSS to file a FP. In defense of the terminal guys, their equipment was not laid out as conducive as ours for inputting FP information (it could be different now).

@Radar Contact . What you guys got there? Can the Contoller at position enter a full Field 01 thru 10 Flight Plan at the scope? Or does he have to get the dude at FDEP/FIDO or whatever else it may be called do it?

EDIT: more I think about it, getting a whole flight plan in wouldn’t be what was needed. But if you have a Track already going, can you do a 6, 7, 10 at the scope

 

[Kritchlow]

Way back when in the early 1990’s, I flew a C310 with checks. I would always file an IFR flight plan, but only used it when needed.
I see no issue with filling, then picking it up enroute. No need for “conversion” from VFR to IFR. It’s there.

 

[FORANE]

Way back when in the early 1990’s, I flew a C310 with checks. I would always file an IFR flight plan, but only used it when needed.
I see no issue with filling, then picking it up enroute. No need for “conversion” from VFR to IFR. It’s there.

Of course it's no longer available for use what, 2 hours after the filed departure time?

 

[luvflyin]

I've never been denied a pop up and told to call FSS. TRACON and Center have always handled it, whether I've called cold, or already been on FF. I've given minimal info (type, equipment) and I've also had to give them everything including name and phone number.

Is it usually Center that wants the full info?

 

[schmookeeg]

I've never had any problem getting a popup. I try to give them like a 20-30 minute lead before the swuzz appears, and advise them so.

I've also heard anecdotes that other regions of the country frown on this, so it might be a local thing.

SoCal, NorCal, LA Center and Seattle Center all seem to just roll with the request like it's a basic thing. If they're busy they get me direct to "somewhere else" and let center mop up the rest of the clearance as able.

Maybe call your local center and ask them how they prefer to handle this if it's a recurring need? Those guys always seem grateful for a pilot who wants to ask the "preferred" way to do things.

 

[JEB]

I had this exact scenario last night. Departed central California headed to Southern California and picked up Flight Following from Fresno Approach. After about 20 minutes of flying, I told Bakersfield Approach that my destination was overcast and needed to convert to an IFR flight plan. The controller was super helpful. He told me he'd need a minute or two to set it up and that he'd call me back soon. about 3 minutes later, I was copying down my new IFR routing. I actually ended up with a better route than the LAX class B transition I had originally planned to use.

I can't speak for everywhere, but here in California, the controllers have been great to work with. I think it would have been more of a hassle to do it via FSS.

 

[bkspero]

I was VFR with flight following over Long Island NY (east of New York City) last Sunday. There were few and only brief gaps in radio communications. When another plane called asking to file an IFR flight plan they were asked to call flight service and file with there.

 

[JEB]

Another option if you have Foreflight or Garmin Pilot - and you have a cell signal - is to use those tools to quickly file a flight plan starting from a given waypoint.

 

[LesGawlik]

I always get FF. I hope that since they already know where I am, what I am and where I'm going, even the busiest controller will give me a pop up.

 

[luvflyin]

I always get FF. I hope that since they already know where I am, what I am and where I'm going, even the busiest controller will give me a pop up.

It’s not always a just push one button thing. If you’re going to cross a Center boundary it can take lotsa button pushing and can’t always be done by the Controller himself. If they’re really busy, just listening to what you want can be time consuming enough to cause other planes to get less than ideal service. But yeah, already being in the system and being Tracked is easier than a cold call.

 

[Radar Contact]

@Radar Contact . What you guys got there? Can the Contoller at position enter a full Field 01 thru 10 Flight Plan at the scope? Or does he have to get the dude at FDEP/FIDO or whatever else it may be called do it?

EDIT: more I think about it, getting a whole flight plan in wouldn’t be what was needed. But if you have a Track already going, can you do a 6, 7, 10 at the scope

Stupid simple. If on FF especially. All I do is push the IFR button and click on you. Change your code and providing you have 1000/3 from another IFR, clear you immediately. If not I’ll give you a heading and/or alt to get it asap. If you are inadvertent I will move the IFR ASAP and give you the clearance. I’ll just go direct or pick a singular fix that works for me and then direct. Center takes the handoff every time. They may slightly amend your route as they need after talking to you.

 

[Tokirbymd]

Stupid simple. If on FF especially. All I do is push the IFR button and click on you. Change your code and providing you have 1000/3 from another IFR, clear you immediately. If not I’ll give you a heading and/or alt to get it asap. If you are inadvertent I will move the IFR ASAP and give you the clearance. I’ll just go direct or pick a singular fix that works for me and then direct. Center takes the handoff every time. They may slightly amend your route as they need after talking to you.

Thanks Kevin, but if the plane is heading for a destination 3 or 4 facilities down the line does that change things? Do you feel obligated to get the SAR and other info in case I go NORDO?

 

[luvflyin]

Thanks Kevin, but if the plane is heading for a destination 3 or 4 facilities down the line does that change things? Do you feel obligated to get the SAR and other info in case I go NORDO?

Lemme jump in here. If you care about that, file a flight plan. Did you not care about SAR up until the time you requested IFR?

 

[LesGawlik]

Lemme jump in here. If you care about that, file a flight plan. Did you not care about SAR up until the time you requested IFR?

I would get FF just taxiing to the fuel farm and back if they'd let me. I would never file a flight plan unless required to do so. My theory is that if I'm talkin' and squawking, ATC is going to know of any problem RFN. I would not be shy to squawk 7700. ATC would have a much better understanding of where I was and what my problems were, and much more quickly than SAR looking for me for an overdue flight plan.

 

[Llewtrah381]

I would never file a flight plan unless required to do so.

Just curious: given all else you say, why not file IFR? I pretty much always do since there’s more commitment by ATC to me (I’ve been dumped while on FF short of my destination lots of times).

 

[Radar Contact]

Thanks Kevin, but if the plane is heading for a destination 3 or 4 facilities down the line does that change things? Do you feel obligated to get the SAR and other info in case I go NORDO?

Doesn’t change things for me. An aircraft talking to ATC that disappears off radar will get basic SAR initiated. If you want more, I’d suggest you file a flight plan. As a pilot I’m perfectly comfortable without the flight plan.

 

[luvflyin]

Doesn’t change things for me. An aircraft talking to ATC that disappears off radar will get basic SAR initiated. If you want more, I’d suggest you file a flight plan. As a pilot I’m perfectly comfortable without the flight plan.

Exactly. Once you become IFR you become overdue after 30 minutes of no contact or failure to report a fix that you were told to report and the SAR process will begin. But all the souls on board, color of aircraft and fuel on board stuff is not going to be there to help out the process unless the pilot makes it happen. Or the Controller issuing the ‘pop up’ IFR clearance drags it out of him. Which they have no requirement to do as far as I know. Even though some pilots are telling stories about how some Controllers seem to be doing it.

 

[Velocity173]

Exactly. Once you become IFR you become overdue after 30 minutes of no contact or failure to report a fix that you were told to report and the SAR process will begin. But all the souls on board, color of aircraft and fuel on board stuff is not going to be there to help out the process unless the pilot makes it happen. Or the Controller issuing the ‘pop up’ IFR clearance drags it out of him. Which they have no requirement to do as far as I know. Even though some pilots are telling stories about how some Controllers seem to be doing it.

I think this para hints at getting all flight plan info for SAR purposes.



Now for terminal? That’s a little more gray. No requirement that I know of. I’ve heard it many times over the air before though. Like this controller, I only did it for aircraft leaving my airspace.

https://www.avweb.com/flight-safety/pop-up-ifr/