Pop-up vs. airborne pickups

azure

azure

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azure
In a different thread, Steven (@roncachamp) asked:
roncachamp said:
How do you differentiate pop-ups from airborne pickups?
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The way I use the terms, an airborne pickup is of an IFR flight plan that has been filed previously with Flight Service. In a pop-up, the pilot is calling "cold" (or while on flight following), without having filed an IFR flight plan.

(If this discussion is to go on I'd give it its own thread instead of continuing to hijack a different one where it's only tangentially relevant.)
 
azure said:
The way I use the terms, an airborne pickup is of an IFR flight plan that has been filed previously with Flight Service. In a pop-up, the pilot is calling "cold" (or while on flight following), without having filed an IFR flight plan.
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Okay. Would you expect any difference in treatment by ATC in the issuance of the clearance?
 
roncachamp said:
Okay. Would you expect any difference in treatment by ATC in the issuance of the clearance?
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Depends on what ATC. Out east.............pretty bad, don't expect any special favors.

Out west.........probably will handle a "popup." But don't bet your life on it.

This is all "post" 1981 ATC strikers being fired. Before that time, ATC handling was MUCH better and never did recover.
 
kgruber said:
Depends on what ATC. Out east.............pretty bad, don't expect any special favors.

Out west.........probably will handle a "popup." But don't bet your life on it.

This is all "post" 1981 ATC strikers being fired. Before that time, ATC handling was MUCH better and never did recover.
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The question implies an IFR clearance is actually issued in each case.
 
I'm not sure what the question is here but the issuance of the clearance in regards to the pilot maintaining their own terrain / obstruction clearance is the same.

You may get "cleared to XYZ as filed" for the airborne (filed) vs "cleared to XYZ via radar vectors" for the pop up. That's about the only difference.
 
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Velocity173 said:
I'm not sure what the question is here but the issuance of the clearance in regards to the pilot maintaining their own terrain / obstruction clearance is the same.
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Yep. Actually, I've even heard the "maintain own terrain/obstruction separation" language from ATC for descents and, once, was offered it en route.
 
For what it's worth on this subject:

Let's assume both the pop-up and airborne pickup guy is above the MVA.

The airborne pickup may be easier because the flight plan is already in the NAS computer. Therefor if a PDR (preferred departure route) is required due to LOA's it's already in and just has to be issued to the pilot via a FRC.

The pop-up depending on the location of the aircraft, destination and altitude requested may require more routing work or may be simply cleared direct.

Lot's of variables.
 
kgruber said:
Depends on what ATC. Out east.............pretty bad, don't expect any special favors.

Out west.........probably will handle a "popup." But don't bet your life on it.

This is all "post" 1981 ATC strikers being fired. Before that time, ATC handling was MUCH better and never did recover.
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While I'll agree on the depends what ATC part, I respectfully disagree on most the rest.

I have only worked ATC post 1981 but I've also never denied either an airborne pickup or a pop-up. Of course I'm a pilot lover, give class B clearances and directs whenever possible. :)
 
Radar Contact said:
For what it's worth on this subject:

Let's assume both the pop-up and airborne pickup guy is above the MVA.

The airborne pickup may be easier because the flight plan is already in the NAS computer. Therefor if a PDR (preferred departure route) is required due to LOA's it's already in and just has to be issued to the pilot via a FRC.

The pop-up depending on the location of the aircraft, destination and altitude requested may require more routing work or may be simply cleared direct.

Lot's of variables.
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There may be a bit more work for the controller in a pop-up v. an airborne pickup but the clearance issued to the pilot is the same.
 
I thought this thread was more oriented to what information the pilot should expect to provide for an airborne pickup vs a pop-up.

I was thinking the answer for airborne is "current position and enough to find what you filed" vs pop-up which requires the full detail of the filing.

Also, because I don't know, IFR is not provided on a workload availability basis. What would happen on a pop-up if the controller is slammed? Would the pilot just be put in a hold until the routing could be completed and cleared? Or must he remain in VMC until everything is worked out?
 
Ravioli said:
I thought this thread was more oriented to what information the pilot should expect to provide for an airborne pickup vs a pop-up.

I was thinking the answer for airborne is "current position and enough to find what you filed" vs pop-up which requires the full detail of the filing.

Also, because I don't know, IFR is not provided on a workload availability basis. What would happen on a pop-up if the controller is slammed? Would the pilot just be put in a hold until the routing could be completed and cleared? Or must he remain in VMC until everything is worked out?
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For an airborne pickup the controller just needs what airport or fix you filed off of and your current position/altitude. A pop up doesn't need all the info you file on an IFR flight plan (ie. color aircraft, fuel, sob, etc). All I need for a popup is your current position, altitude (current and requested), type, equipment suffix and destination.

Yes, it will be on a workload permitting basis. If I can't issue it right now (rare) then you have to stay VMC until I can. If you can't stay VMC/already IMC and I can't issue it for traffic you're only left with declaring an emergency then you bump up to number 1 in the priority list. Obviously not recommended practice but it is what it is.
 
roncachamp said:
I don't know. Did we? ISTM this discussion is based on the pilot's point of view and your statement did not appear to apply only to the controller.
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I'm still confused (not hard to do). Being both, I try (maybe not effectively) to tie ATC related topics to both the pilot and controllers perspective.
 
Ravioli said:
Also, because I don't know, IFR is not provided on a workload availability basis. What would happen on a pop-up if the controller is slammed? Would the pilot just be put in a hold until the routing could be completed and cleared? Or must he remain in VMC until everything is worked out?
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The controller can issue an IFR clearance before everything is worked out. If the destination happens to be in the issuing controller's airspace there's really nothing to work out, the flight plan doesn't have to be entered in the computer as it's not going anywhere else. The controller doesn't even have to obtain all of the information that would be filed by the pilot, just the information needed to provide IFR service.
 
Ravioli said:
Also, because I don't know, IFR is not provided on a workload availability basis. What would happen on a pop-up if the controller is slammed? Would the pilot just be put in a hold until the routing could be completed and cleared? Or must he remain in VMC until everything is worked out?
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From an ATC standpoint, pop-ups are workload based. A controller is free to say, "unable. Suggest you contact Flight Service" to file an IFR flight plan. Until you have your IFR clearance you are a VFR aircraft expected to maintain VFR.
 
Radar Contact said:
I'm still confused (not hard to do). Being both, I try (maybe not effectively) to tie ATC related topics to both the pilot and controllers perspective.
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The point is while the workload imposed on the controller may differ in an airborne pickup of an already filed IFR flight plan v. a pop-up, the treatment received by the pilot is the same.
 
Radar Contact said:
For an airborne pickup the controller just needs what airport or fix you filed off of and your current position/altitude. A pop up doesn't need all the info you file on an IFR flight plan (ie. color aircraft, fuel, sob, etc). All I need for a popup is your current position, altitude (current and requested), type, equipment suffix and destination.

Yes, it will be on a workload permitting basis. If I can't issue it right now (rare) then you have to stay VMC until I can. If you can't stay VMC/already IMC and I can't issue it for traffic you're only left with declaring an emergency then you bump up to number 1 in the priority list. Obviously not recommended practice but it is what it is.
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Do you all not get flight plan information for a pop up doing a XC that goes outside your airspace?
 
Velocity173 said:
Do you all not get flight plan information for a pop up doing a XC that goes outside your airspace?
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To simplify the process (for me and the pilot) I will usually just make you IFR with a local IFR code and then do a manual handoff (via land line) to the adjacent facility. As the receiving facility if you are on their local code I won't receive the info and just get it verbally from the controller. If they take the time to put you in the NAS computer then the flight plan info transfers via automation.
 
Radar Contact said:
To simplify the process (for me and the pilot) I will usually just make you IFR with a local IFR code and then do a manual handoff (via land line) to the adjacent facility. As the receiving facility if you are on their local code I won't receive the info and just get it verbally from the controller. If they take the time to put you in the NAS computer then the flight plan info transfers via automation.
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Ok. We used to have the pilot rattle off all the info for a cross country interfacility handoff. I think it was more of a facility interpretation of 2-2-1 b for SAR purposes.
 
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This thread has been interesting for me. I've been through the Void Clearance, received via telephone with the props spinning. I've been en-route and when the reported weather switched from VFR to MVFR we got a pop-up as a precaution (good decision in retrospect). Have not done an airborne pickup for IFR.

For those at non-towered airports: On a CAVU day, do you phone for the Void or pickup in the air? Or is that area dependent?
And for the controllers: Preference?
 
Ravioli said:
This thread has been interesting for me. I've been through the Void Clearance, received via telephone with the props spinning. I've been en-route and when the reported weather switched from VFR to MVFR we got a pop-up as a precaution (good decision in retrospect). Have not done an airborne pickup for IFR.

For those at non-towered airports: On a CAVU day, do you phone for the Void or pickup in the air? Or is that area dependent?
And for the controllers: Preference?
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If I tried to pick up IFR in the air on a CAVU day on Long Island, I'd get laughed at by NY Approach. If I'm in the boonies, it's totally different. Realistically if it's a CAVU day, I'm just going VFR
 
Ravioli said:
For those at non-towered airports: On a CAVU day, do you phone for the Void or pickup in the air? Or is that area dependent?
And for the controllers: Preference?
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When I'm flying on a CAVU day I will just pick it up in the air.

When controlling, it's area/traffic dependent. For example, if you come off an airport below my MDW arrival stream (which is a low level stream vs ORD) it may take a bit/be slightly more complex to issue the clearance vs coming off an airport with no low level IFR traffic which is automatic clearance for the pilot. I personally have no preference.
 
Velocity173 said:
Ok. We used to have the pilot rattle off all the info for a cross country interfacility handoff. I think it was more of a facility interpretation of 2-2-1 b for SAR purposes.
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I think so. I've always been under the understanding that when it says ENROUTE that is applicable only to centers. That said if you're IFR ATC is going to have a good idea of where you go down and SAR will be initiated immediately. I wonder if local rescuers actually get SOB's and other flight plan info before arriving on the scene when available? I've had to initiate SAR a couple of times and considering I don't have access to flight plan info as a terminal facility, I've never relayed that info. Maybe centers do?
 
Radar Contact said:
I think so. I've always been under the understanding that when it says ENROUTE that is applicable only to centers. That said if you're IFR ATC is going to have a good idea of where you go down and SAR will be initiated immediately. I wonder if local rescuers actually get SOB's and other flight plan info before arriving on the scene when available? I've had to initiate SAR a couple of times and considering I don't have access to flight plan info as a terminal facility, I've never relayed that info. Maybe centers do?
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Yeah, I don't think it's done as a standard practice at TRACONs. Ours did it for some reason. Of course for a local pop up we only got the basics (pos, ID, req).
 
roncachamp said:
Okay. Would you expect any difference in treatment by ATC in the issuance of the clearance?
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Personally I am not sure what to expect in the issuance of a pop-up clearance because I have very little experience asking for that type of clearance. I have much more experience with trying to pick up an IFR airborne, and that's one reason I made the distinction. The other is that you said that a pilot who is asked whether they can maintain their own terrain/obstruction clearance is normally a pop-up and therefore presumably can NOT continue VFR and really needs to have a means of navigating to avoid obstructions. My experience, with airborne pickups, is different. I don't do that unless I have outs, so I can always continue VFR, but I may not be able to continue VFR to my intended altitude, and depending on where I am and my direction of flight, I may or may not be able to maintain my own terrain and obstruction clearance from some random point in space if I'm cleared into IMC.

In practice, here in ZBW airspace, it's all moot because I'm pretty much guaranteed NOT to get an IFR clearance that's effective below the MIA unless I pick it up on the ground. Doesn't matter whether I can maintain my own terrain/obstruction clearance or not. If they do ask that question and I answer yes, I'll get a clearance "upon reaching...", but that won't get me into the clouds below the MIA. More often they'll refuse to issue the clearance until I'm at or above the MIA. So it's mostly irrelevant whether I can navigate a route to clear the rocks without seeing them; I can't get a clearance that would legally allow me to do that, in a situation in which I would be asked that question.

I assume that would apply equally well to an airborne pickup or a pop-up, but again, I don't do pop-ups as a rule so I don't really know.
 
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azure said:
Personally I am not sure what to expect in the issuance of a pop-up clearance because I have very little experience asking for that type of clearance. I have much more experience with trying to pick up an IFR airborne, and that's one reason I made the distinction. The other is that you said that a pilot who is asked whether they can maintain their own terrain/obstruction clearance is normally a pop-up and therefore presumably can NOT continue VFR and really needs to have a means of navigating to avoid obstructions. My experience, with airborne pickups, is different. I don't do that unless I have outs, so I can always continue VFR, but I may not be able to continue VFR to my intended altitude, and depending on where I am and my direction of flight, I may or may not be able to maintain my own terrain and obstruction clearance from some random point in space if I'm cleared into IMC.

In practice, here in ZBW airspace, it's all moot because I'm pretty much guaranteed NOT to get an IFR clearance that's effective below the MIA unless I pick it up on the ground. Doesn't matter whether I can maintain my own terrain/obstruction clearance or not. If they do ask that question and I answer yes, I MIGHT get a clearance "upon reaching...", but that won't get me into the clouds below the MIA. So it's mostly irrelevant whether I can navigate a route to clear the rocks without seeing them; I can't get a clearance that would legally allow me to do that, in a situation in which I would be asked that question.

I assume that would apply equally well to an airborne pickup or a pop-up, but again, I don't do pop-ups as a rule so I don't really know.
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I've gotten stuck a few times due to unforecast fog and clouds and had to get a pop up to shoot the approach. NY apparoach was great
 
Before Steven or someone else jumps on me, let me correct something I said, that I can't get a clearance that's effective below the MIA. That's true on airborne pickups on departure. Of course if I'm cleared lower than the MIA to begin an approach, or cleared for the approach, the clearance doesn't vanish just because I descend below the MIA.

Hopefully it was obvious from the context that I wasn't saying otherwise, but just in case...
 
Nope, I've never picked up or popped up in the air unless I could maintain VFR for a while. I did once ask for an airborne pickup and told them I could not maintain traffic separation on the way up. They said hold on and came back with the clearance. You do this if you're departing IFR from the ground.

I think in twelve years of instrument flight, I've only been told to go to FSS to file once when requesting a pop up. Both times I came back and picked it up in the air. Usually, I'm already getting flight following and I say "Can I get IFR at 6000" and a few seconds later comes back CLEARED TO DESTINATION VIA DIRECT MAINTAIN 6000.

A few years back we were arriving Oshkosh the Wednesday before the show (before the NOTAM was in effect). I'd just cleared the Chicago airspace and was getting flight following from MKE approach. I check the weather ahead and it doesn't look VFR.

27K: It looks like OSH is IFR can I get a clearance from you or do I have to go to FSS to file.
MKE: (sigh - yes he literally sighs over the air like "it's starting already") Are you rated and equipped?
27K: Affirmative
MKE: Cleared Direct to Oshksoh MAINTAN 4000 expect the VOR 9 approach.
27K: How about the RNAV 9?
MKE: OK expect that.

After that it was pretty mundane. First time I've busted out of the clouds looking at the show...
 
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