Pop up IFR and currency.

saracelica

saracelica

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saracelica
Hope I don't annoy with too many IR questions.

So did 1.8 training under the hood last night. :)

At one point my CFII called up approach and said "Need to file for Pop up IFR" Evidentally there was a cloud layer over the airport, I'm not sure since I was under the hood. Anyway in a few minutes we got vectored to the VOR and used the "magic magenta line writer machine" and flew the approach in.

I feel like I heard on those "Never again stories" that when people call up ATC for IFR vectors or Pop up IFR they ask if the pilot is current IFR. Is that only when the pilot is struggling to follow directions?

Just like PPL I'm hooked with figuring out this IFR thing as well.
 
saracelica said:
I feel like I heard on those "Never again stories" that when people call up ATC for IFR vectors or Pop up IFR they ask if the pilot is current IFR. Is that only when the pilot is struggling to follow directions?
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No, it's SOP -- happens all the time. Not sure why they are supposed to do it, since nobody asks you that when you file on line, but there it is.
 
saracelica said:
I feel like I heard on those "Never again stories" that when people call up ATC for IFR vectors or Pop up IFR they ask if the pilot is current IFR. Is that only when the pilot is struggling to follow directions?
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The book calls for that when a pilot operating VFR has encountered some difficulties with the weather. Some controllers ask it whenever a pilot requests an IFR popup clearance but there's no requirement to do so.
 
Ron Levy said:
No, it's SOP -- happens all the time. Not sure why they are supposed to do it, since nobody asks you that when you file on line, but there it is.
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Actually, it's not there. It's not uncommon but the book does not require it.
 
roncachamp said:
Actually, it's not there. It's not uncommon but the book does not require it.
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Then where did they get the idea to ask? Or is this another one of those kudzu things like ATITAPA or "one zero, ten thousand" which someone just started doing (ExecJet, I think, in the first case and USAir, I know, in the second) and then it spread uncontollably until it could no longer be killed?
 
Ron Levy said:
Then where did they get the idea to ask? Or is this another one of those kudzu things like ATITAPA or "one zero, ten thousand" which someone just started doing (ExecJet, I think, in the first case and USAir, I know, in the second) and then it spread uncontollably until it could no longer be killed?
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You'll have to ask those that do it, I am not one of them. I assume any pilot that requests an IFR clearance is qualified for and capable of IFR flight. Doesn't matter if he's on the ground or airborne.
 
I'm confused...is asking the pilot who requests IFR vectors or otherwise if they are current or not is or isn't Standard Operating Procedure. Anyone *could* file IFR Flight plan without being current?
 
saracelica said:
I'm confused...is asking the pilot who requests IFR vectors or otherwise if they are current or not is or isn't Standard Operating Procedure. Anyone *could* file IFR Flight plan without being current?
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Well, what do you mean by "requests IFR vectors"? If you're asking if it's SOP to ask a pilot operating VFR who requests an IFR clearance if he is equipped for and capable of IFR flight the answer is "No." Yes, anyone could file an IFR flight plan and request an IFR clearance without being current. It's assumed that pilots know and follow the rules.
 
saracelica said:
I'm confused...is asking the pilot who requests IFR vectors or otherwise if they are current or not is or isn't Standard Operating Procedure. Anyone *could* file IFR Flight plan without being current?
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My guess is that they do it because they are trying to ascertain if there is a problem. Perhaps they perceive the pop up may be a result of poor planning. I very rarely will request a pop up since most of my flights are on an IFR flight plan. It would be nice if we could find out from someone who is a controller.
 
Steven is correct. Unless the pilot is operating VFR and encountering IMC conditions, he's not going to ask if your IFR rated and equipped. A common thing if you're asking for clearance and you're below his MVA, they'll say something like "can you maintain your own terrain and obstruction clearance from present altitude until reaching X altitude." by saying that he's taking the responsibility from his shoulders and putting it on you until you get to his MVA. If you can maintain clearance from present altitude to the MVA on your own then you'll hear " roger N12345 is cleared to the xyz airport, climb and maintain X (MVA)."

Oh just so you know the correct term for "pop up IFR", it's called Abbreviated IFR Flight Plans. The definition is in the Glossary of the AIM.
 
Sara don't get "pop up IFR" confused with a VFR guy encountering bad wx and requires a clearance. One (your situation) is a rated IFR pilot flying around VFR now wants to shoot an instrument approach for training. IMO this shows how flexible the ATC system can really be. The second scenario is a VFR guy who is in deep crap and they may not even be instrument rated or their aircraft may not even be equipped. If both he and the aircraft are good to go then it's a non issue. Controller clears the aircraft to the airport and assigns an altitude. If they aren't IFR then we have a problem. If the pilot hasn't declared yet then the controller will most likely declare an emergency or either simply treat the situation as an emergency. In that case a VFR pilots best bet IMO would be to do a PAR or ASR and get talked down to the ground. When I did ATC a buddy of mine did a PAR for a PA-28 and got an award for it. Still it's not all that common for VFR guys to get IFR service and it works out OK. Usually the scenario ends badly with the aircraft crashing even before establishing communications.

Also realize that your instrument approach training request doesn't have much priority for the controller. Your instructor didn't file on the ground and now he wants to pick up an IFR. Nothing wrong with it, but if the controller is busy with other IFRs he might vary well tell you "N12345 maintain VFR, remain clear of the class C airspace, I'll get back to you in a minute."
 
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I ask for pop ups from time to time. I've had controllers ask if I am current, or if I and the plane are current. And I've also had them just say, "cleared [route] from present position, maintain [altitude]" with no questions asked.

What I am asking for is to change my flight rules from VFR to IFR, and not worry about having to dodge duck dip dive and dodge clouds.
 
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EdFred said:
I ask for pop ups from time to time. I've had controllers ask if I am current, or if I and the plane are current. And I've also had them just say, "cleared [route] from present position, maintain [altitude]" with no questions asked.
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It's not a requirement. Controller technique or they simply don't know the requirement.
 
Velocity173 said:
It's not a requirement. Controller technique or they simply don't know the requirement.
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Oh, I know. I had a MKG controller want every block "filled in" on the flight plan form. (And this was when I was only 20 out, and all I wanted was vectors for an ILS) and I've had others not ask a thing - not even my equipment suffix.
 
EdFred said:
Oh, I know. I had a MKG controller want every block "filled in" on the flight plan form. (And this was when I was only 20 out, and all I wanted was vectors for an ILS) and I've had others not ask a thing - not even my equipment suffix.
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I've had both experiences as well. Never know if filing a pop-up IFR plan is going to be a pain in the ass or not. Best just to file and cancel in the air if you don't need it.

Around here its pretty easy to get a direct routing so I usually fly IFR everywhere.
 
Marauder said:
My guess is that they do it because they are trying to ascertain if there is a problem. Perhaps they perceive the pop up may be a result of poor planning. I very rarely will request a pop up since most of my flights are on an IFR flight plan. It would be nice if we could find out from someone who is a controller.
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I'm a controller. The language referred to in the OP is found in Order JO 7110.65 Air Traffic Control, Chapter 10 Emergencies, Section 2 Emergency Assistance, paragraph 10-2-8 Radar Assistance to VFR Aircraft in Weather Difficulty:

"a. If a VFR aircraft requests radar assistance when it encounters or is about to encounter IFR weather conditions, ask the pilot if he/she is qualified for and capable of conducting IFR flight."

There is no requirement to ask a pilot that is requesting an IFR clearance if he/she is qualified for and capable of conducting IFR flight.
 
It ranks up there with having to provide a reason for a change in destination when IFR. I've been tempted to reply with "I received a sign from God" or "the voices in my head told me to" but figured I'd keep that joke in my cockpit.
 
At the risk of starting thread creep, what about the situation where you file and then you ask to pick up your clearance in the air but your flight plan has disappeared into the aether (this has happened to me twice now when filing electronically)? I assume you're treated as a pop-up? The fact that a filed plan can get lost is one of the reasons it would be nice if it were easier to reliably get a pop-up clearance... but then I guess it would be nice if a lot of things were easier.

This may be one of the reasons some CFIIs advise students not to pick up clearances in the air.

A recent time this happened to me (lost IFR plan) was returning home from a nearby towered field on an IFR day. Since conditions were IFR, I learned of the problem when I called up clearance delivery. They were able to put me into the system on the fly, but indicated it was only because it was a short flight. If I had been going out of the area, apparently I would have had to refile.

Oh, and to keep this marginally on-topic, ATC did NOT ask me if I was qualified and current.
 
roncachamp said:
I'm a controller. The language referred to in the OP is found in Order JO 7110.65 Air Traffic Control, Chapter 10 Emergencies, Section 2 Emergency Assistance, paragraph 10-2-8 Radar Assistance to VFR Aircraft in Weather Difficulty:

"a. If a VFR aircraft requests radar assistance when it encounters or is about to encounter IFR weather conditions, ask the pilot if he/she is qualified for and capable of conducting IFR flight."

There is no requirement to ask a pilot that is requesting an IFR clearance if he/she is qualified for and capable of conducting IFR flight.
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Thank you! So, if I understand your response correctly, if a pilot asks for a pop clearance to get through a cloud deck to VFR conditions on top, a controller asking for IFR capabilities in this situation doesn't need to but is asking because they have probably dealt with pilots who aren't clearly asking for the clearance. I get this right?
 
saracelica said:
I'm confused...is asking the pilot who requests IFR vectors or otherwise if they are current or not is or isn't Standard Operating Procedure. Anyone *could* file IFR Flight plan without being current?
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Heck, someone could file or pop-up without having an instrument rating at all. :yikes: I don't recall ever being asked if I was rated and current.

Bob Gardner
 
Marauder said:
Thank you! So, if I understand your response correctly, if a pilot asks for a pop clearance to get through a cloud deck to VFR conditions on top, a controller asking for IFR capabilities in this situation doesn't need to but is asking because they have probably dealt with pilots who aren't clearly asking for the clearance. I get this right?
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I believe the policy stems from some incidents where VFR pilots get themselves in trouble with the weather and tried to fake their way through an IFR clearance. I suspect the intent of the question is for the controller to determine if they should treat you as an emergency or not.
 
I've only been asked once. I was talking to MKE approach on my way into Oshkosh last summer. I was checking ahead on the weather and found Oshkosh was about 900OVC. I knew that C90 and others have some special handling rules around Oshkosh time (and about half the time in the NE, the crankier approach controls won't accept pop ups and send you over to FSS to file) so I inquired with approach if I could get an IFR clearance into OSH. He asked if I was rated and equipped (don't recall him asking current) and I said yes, and I got a clearance immediately (I was already on FF squawk).
 
Brad Z said:
I believe the policy stems from some incidents where VFR pilots get themselves in trouble with the weather and tried to fake their way through an IFR clearance. I suspect the intent of the question is for the controller to determine if they should treat you as an emergency or not.
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Thanks Brad. The times I have asked for pop up clearances I can't ever remember being asked if I was rated. I do remember once being asked if my plane was IFR capable.

I'm glad to see there are some checks in the system to help identify those who should be declaring an emergency instead of pretending they can continue on.
 
When I was with my first CFII shooting approaches at KYIP and the visibility went below VFR minimums due to snowfall, ATC announced the field was IFR and said "say intentions". I think they were expecting us to ask for something "special", but we asked for a pop-up. They did ask us if we were IFR equipped and qualified, and of course we were. (well, my instructor was ;))

I'm not sure if that falls under the "VFR aircraft in trouble" rule, since we could have gotten a SVFR clearance and landed. Also, it was not really IFR along the way, so getting SVFR and then going our merry way back home would probably have been legal too.
 
dell30rb said:
I've had both experiences as well. Never know if filing a pop-up IFR plan is going to be a pain in the ass or not. Best just to file and cancel in the air if you don't need it.

Around here its pretty easy to get a direct routing so I usually fly IFR everywhere.
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I'm near this big thing called Lake Michigan which kills any accurate weather predicting. VMC can go to IMC in a hurry.
 
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Marauder said:
Thank you! So, if I understand your response correctly, if a pilot asks for a pop clearance to get through a cloud deck to VFR conditions on top, a controller asking for IFR capabilities in this situation doesn't need to but is asking because they have probably dealt with pilots who aren't clearly asking for the clearance. I get this right?
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I don't know why controllers ask about IFR capabilities in that situation. I do know that there is no requirement to do so. When a pilot requests an IFR clearance, whatever the situation, there is no requirement to ask about IFR capabilities. When going IFR is the controller's idea, such as with an aircraft operating VFR in deteroriating weather, it must first be determined that the pilot is capable of operating IFR.
 
What would happen if someone actually did say "No, I'm not instrument rated" when a controller asked if so?

I've only been asked once in many dozens of pop up clearences I've requested.
 
EdFred said:
I ask for pop ups from time to time. I've had controllers ask if I am current, or if I and the plane are current. And I've also had them just say, "cleared [route] from present position, maintain [altitude]" with no questions asked.
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Me too. Haven't done pop-ups all that much but I think I have not been asked more than I have.
 
Brad Z said:
It ranks up there with having to provide a reason for a change in destination when IFR. I've been tempted to reply with "I received a sign from God" or "the voices in my head told me to" but figured I'd keep that joke in my cockpit.
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:lol: Sick minds think alike......good stuff!
 
roncachamp said:
I'm a controller. The language referred to in the OP is found in Order JO 7110.65 Air Traffic Control, Chapter 10 Emergencies, Section 2 Emergency Assistance, paragraph 10-2-8 Radar Assistance to VFR Aircraft in Weather Difficulty:

"a. If a VFR aircraft requests radar assistance when it encounters or is about to encounter IFR weather conditions, ask the pilot if he/she is qualified for and capable of conducting IFR flight."

There is no requirement to ask a pilot that is requesting an IFR clearance if he/she is qualified for and capable of conducting IFR flight.
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Perhaps some of your colleagues take a more liberal interpretation of that paragraph, or maybe they're just covering themselves, by asking the question any time a VFR aircraft without an IFR flight plan on file asks for an IFR clearance due to weather. :dunno: In any event, I don't take that question personally, and merely respond, "Affirmative." End of the matter.
 
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Brad Z said:
I believe the policy stems from some incidents where VFR pilots get themselves in trouble with the weather and tried to fake their way through an IFR clearance. I suspect the intent of the question is for the controller to determine if they should treat you as an emergency or not.
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Now that makes sense.
 
The question of qualified for and capable for IFR flight is brought up because there are two different ways of handling the situation. One is the pilot and aircraft are capable. You treat him like any IFR clearance aircraft except for the fact I might write a red E on the strip because this guy can't maintain VFR on his own. The second situation is completely different. I'm getting ready to clear this guy into IMC which they and possibly their aircraft aren't capable of. That's definitely an emergency. Prior to clearing them I would exhuast all other efforts such as finding VMC for the guy.

If it appears there's no choice but to enter IMC there were a few things we did differently for the situation. First, if it's some junior approach controller on we generally replaced him with a supervisor, possibly someone who also is a private pilot. This controller can relate to the pilot's predicament and possibly give basic instrument flying tips or even just talking him through on setting up his nav for the coming approach. He would give one instruction at a time as not to overload the pilot. They're not going to be giving a heading and descent together. They're going to keep heading changes to a minimum. They're going keep frequency changes to a minimum. As I said, I believe the best approach is a PAR especially if the pilot has never flown an instrument approach. Even during the PAR you don't want to overload them with excess vectors or alert them with minor glidepath deviations. Even the infliction from your voice should should be different. You want to do everything possible to keep the pilot calm.

So two different situations requiring two different ways of assistance from ATC. Not sure how other facilites handle it but that's how we did it.
 
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Thanks McFly/Velocity173. Sort of a follow up question. What percentage of controllers do you think have at least their PPL?
 
saracelica said:
Thanks McFly/Velocity173. Sort of a follow up question. What percentage of controllers do you think have at least their PPL?
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I know about a dozen current controllers and the only one out of them is actually my brother. I believe he said he has one female that works with him flys as well. He's getting ready to sell his plane and get out of the flying thing though. On March 1st hard cuts are getting ready to happen in the FAA and his current pay is in jeopardy. But that's for another thread.

When I did ATC it was in the Marines so I was the only Marine in my entire facility (60 people) that had a license. One other civilian I worked with had one as well. Another civilian told me once that having my license was great and all but it could get me into trouble as well. Being a pilot he was worried that I might over extend my self to try and help a pilot's request. This could end up resulting in loss of separation. Luckily that never happened but there were cases (contact approach) where I tried to accommodate a pilots request and it screwed up my whole traffic flow.

So basically if I had to guess, I'd say you have maybe between 10-20 % that have their license. I think there was another thread recently that asked if controllers get any training on basic instruments. I think I have like one page in my training manual that talks about it. Besides that most controllers have no clue about what your instruments do. Besides Steven I don't know of too many that even know much about the AIM or FARs. You have a few manuals that they concentrate on. The 7110.65 (ATC "Bible"), 7210.3 (Facility Operations and Administration), military ATC regs (NATOPS), SOPs, LOAs, facility letters, SCATANA procedures, local area approaches memorized and usually airspace within 100 miles if an approach controller. Nothing really in the training syllabus on basic pilot procedures or even aerodynamics.

Not sure if they do it since 9/11, but back in the old days you could use your "pink card" and catch a free hop on commercial carriers. This usually was a jump seat ride and gave the controller and excellent view of what pilots do on their end. Kinda like "Operation Raincheck" does for pilots. In the military ATC you could get "fam" rides in various aircraft. Some even get their people ejection seat qualed and get hops in trainers. I even "bummed" a ride in a Flight Check who was checking our PAR. These types of flights and programs create a healthy exchange of knowledge between the aviation community. Unfortunately I fear due to increasing security I think they've been scaled down in recent years.
 
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