Point out approved

Velocity173

Velocity173

Touchdown! Greaser!
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Velocity173
If a receiving controller initiates "point out approved" without the transferring controller initiating the point out, is it legal? Non automated of course.

All appropriate information was relayed over the landline by the receiving controller as well.
 
So the transferring hasn't initiated the point out, is that what you're saying? How does the receiving know anything about it if it hasn't been coordinated? Either way it has to be agreed upon by the two of them, so I would guess it would be legal as long as this is accomplished. I think.
 
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Legal? Yes. We sometimes did it where center routed arrivals to an adjacent airport went just outside our airspace. Key the shoutline: <squawk> point out approved.
 
mscard88 said:
So the transferring hasn't initiated the point out, is that what you're saying? How does the receiving know anything about it if it hasn't been coordinated? Either way it has to be agreed upon by the two of them, so I would guess it would be legal as long as this is accomplished. I think.
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Kinda like what KK said above. You're on approach with an inbound coming from center. You want to descend them through your adjacent facility's airspace. Your adjacent facility keys the landline first and says:

"5 north of XYZ, 5432 code at 11,000 point out approved."
"Thanks AR."
"CC"

I've heard guys say they can't initiate the point out approved because approach has to initiate the call first to transfer radar in the proper format.
 
OK. Never saw that done that way though.
 
I've done it several times. Slow climbing departures from a facility with lower airspace than my approach. Most common reaction is "Oh &#($, thanks!"

You could argue your point if you worked in a hellscape of ATC, but fortunately I do not.
 
Velocity173 said:
If a receiving controller initiates "point out approved" without the transferring controller initiating the point out, is it legal? Non automated of course.

All appropriate information was relayed over the landline by the receiving controller as well.
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I've done it for years. It saves time and helps a brutha out. I know I appreciate it when they anticipate a point out and just come over the shout line...."so and so, point out approved. Most the time where they are going and how hi is depicted on the STARS anyway.

STARS - Standard Terminal Automation Replacement System which replaced the DBrite, which replaced radar, which replaced a wheel barrel with a bunch of flags in it. Otherwise known as the "scope."
 
For the benefit of a non-controller, what is a point out? That's one I've never heard of before.
 
azure said:
For the benefit of a non-controller, what is a point out? That's one I've never heard of before.
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It's a transfer of radar ID from one controller to another, if that aircraft will or may enter that controller's airspace without a communications transfer.

Not word for word but I'm too lazy to attach the definition right now.:D
 
azure said:
For the benefit of a non-controller, what is a point out? That's one I've never heard of before.
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As I pilot you won't ever hear that. In layman's terms, if an aircraft will be flying through another controller's airspace be it between two towers or two controllers sitting side by side in a Tracon or Center and the controller who's airspace will be flown into doesn't want or need to talk to said aircraft, then the controller who is talking to the aircraft with initiate a "point out" to the controller who owns the airspace that the aircraft is going to fly into.

Sounds like this and I'll use two guys in a Tracon who may or may not be sitting right beside one another watching two different scopes:

Approach controller to departure controller: "Departure approach, point out."
Departure controller - "Departure"
Approach controller - "Point out six miles South of (airport, fix or any other place depicted on the scope) November seven five five Juliet will cross your departure corridor Eastbound"
Departure controller - "November seven five five Juliet point out approved." along with any traffic in the area which may be a factor in which case the approach controller will visually note the traffic and say "traffic observed." then the departure controller will give their "operating initials" followed by the approach controller giving their operating initials.

As most of you know, everything in ATC is recorded so the operating initials are for the recording to note who the controllers were in position at the time if a reason presents itself that a transcript needs to be made following an accident or incident. Operating initials are two letter identifiers for a particular controller. Mine are TM or Tango Mike...I chose those because if you say TM really fast it sounds like my name.
 
"AR." Although I never used it phonetically.
 
Timbeck2 said:
I've done it for years. It saves time and helps a brutha out. I know I appreciate it when they anticipate a point out and just come over the shout line...."so and so, point out approved. QUOTE]

Ahh now I recall doing that myself or another ctlr doing it. Cool.
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It's been done before. If nothing else but to save the chance of an OD being called on the guy who missed the point out. Not sure what the .65 has to say about it, but I've never seen an OD called from the receiving controller initiating the point out.
 
I didn't imply that the receiving controller "initiated" the point out. Rather than make the point out controller say the entire schpeal, the receiving controller just beats him to the punch by anticipating which a/c is being pointed out.
 
It's legal. Sometime approach will get busy. If I se someone that looks like he's about to bust my airspace, I'll key up and tell them "Point out approved for Nxxxx". And btw, the video above is EXACTLY how it goes lol.
 
Had a funny point out story while I was a student training on approach years ago.

It was one of those days when I was going down the tubes and just wasn't getting the picture. Probably had steam rising from my head from all the gears in there spinning so fast. Our bordering facility to the west called for a point out. Female controller, gave all the information but it was a little fast for my experience level. I sat there in silence scanning all over for code that seemingly didn't exist. Finally, my monitor whispers in an impatient voice "point out approved." I parrot the same to the female controller on the end of the line and quickly hang up. Only, I didn't hang up because I didn't press the landline button all the way down, so I'm still hot. At this point, Ive just about had it. I throw my hands up and and in total despair say "point out approved? Well, where in the hell is he?!" I hear the other controller just laughing on the other end of the line. She keys back up again and politely starts to give the position for the second time, only slower and laughing while she's doing it. My monitor keys up and appoligizes for my stupidity.

That was one of those days where you wonder if it's ever going to click. It did, just took about a year.
 
Lol. That reminded me of one years ago. It was a handoff. Manual, no ARTS yet. It goes like this; call on the land line, give position of the target relative to a fix displayed on both controllers scopes. A very common thing that happens is the receiving controller doesn't see the target yet and says "keep him coming, I'll call when I see him. Hang up. A little later they call and complete the handoff. It went like this.

Castle, Lemoore, handoff.
Go ahead.
position, altitude etc
With that voice, we've all heard it, pilots and controllers alike, she is obviously in training and flustered.

"Keep him calling, I'll come when I see him"
 
Ok I gotta ask.
Do controllers think it silly/stupid/inappropriate/confusing for pilots to use the term "point out"? As in, "traffic in sight, thanks for the point out".
 
Let'sgoflying! said:
Ok I gotta ask.
Do controllers think it silly/stupid/inappropriate/confusing for pilots to use the term "point out"? As in, "traffic in sight, thanks for the point out".
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I don't think so. The controller knows they're not referring to the official meaning of point out anyway. Just giving thanks for the help.

Heard some controllers say they don't like it when pilots report having the traffic on TCAS or in fighters using "radar contact" on it. Yes, those comments do nothing for the controller's duties but at least in the back of the controller's mind they know the aircraft has additional SA as to where the aircraft is.
 
Let'sgoflying! said:
Ok I gotta ask.
Do controllers think it silly/stupid/inappropriate/confusing for pilots to use the term "point out"? As in, "traffic in sight, thanks for the point out".
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Some do, some don't. It can be annoying when its really busy and wasted seconds of air time start adding up.
 
Let'sgoflying! said:
Ok I gotta ask.
Do controllers think it silly/stupid/inappropriate/confusing for pilots to use the term "point out"? As in, "traffic in sight, thanks for the point out".
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Wouldn't stopping at thanks be enough additional to show the gratitude without trying to sound cool with jargon at the end? Just askin' what you think. I've added a "thanks" or an an "appreciate that" before but I can't think of anything useful the "the point out" conveys.
 
"Point out" is an internal ATC thing. You just leave it alone ya heah?! :fingerwag: :biggrin:

Just acknowledge the traffic, "traffic in sight", "tally ho", whatever. AIM has suggestions if you want to look.
 
mscard88 said:
"Point out" is an internal ATC thing. You just leave it alone ya heah?! :fingerwag: :biggrin:

Just acknowledge the traffic, "traffic in sight", "tally ho", whatever. AIM has suggestions if you want to look.
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And 'tally ho' isn't one of them.
 
Oh, now you guys are going to get the civilian "Phraseology Nazis" all worked up! :eek:
 
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