Please report your position accurately! I want to live!

Shawn

Shawn

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Shawn
Fling into KHAF for dinner...after a few other position reports I hear "Half Moon Bay Traffic, Diamond 3WT 5 miles to the south 2500' descending straight in runway 30"

I am 8 miles out (verified distance on foreflight and 430)on final at 2000' for straight in 30 and announce as such...no traffic in sight and ask where he is again..."5 Miles out along the shoreline"..."OK, I am 8 miles out along the shoreline do not have you in sight, reducing speed"

My rear passenger looks up out of the back window and says "He is right on top of us!" I am in a high wing and he is in a low wing descending right into me!...Ruh Row!

Meh, whats a few miles among friends?

My passengers enjoyed the nose dive at least.

Twit.
 
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At least he was talking. My close calls have been with folks that don't want to use the radio and I get to see them up close and personal.

Nice to have observant passengers though.
 
Time for PCAS or ADS-B?

The other guy needs to report what it says in the box or he's asking for trouble.

I try to call ten out, five out, with altitudes, then entering the pattern. And I sure try to make radio and eye contact with anyone coming in or coming out my way. Glad you missed each other. :redface:
 
Shawn said:
Fling into KHAF for dinner...after a few other position reports I hear "Half Moon Bay Traffic, Diamond 3WT 5 miles to the south 2500' descending straight in runway 30"

I am 8 miles out (verified distance on foreflight and 430)on final at 2000' for straight in 30 and announce as such...no traffic in sight and ask where he is again..."5 Miles out along the shoreline"..."OK, I am 8 miles out along the shoreline do not have you in sight, reducing speed"

My rear passenger looks up out of the back window and says "He is right on top of us!" I am in a high wing and he is in a low wing descending right into me!...Ruh Row!

Meh, whats a few miles among friends?

My passengers enjoyed the nose dive at least.

Twit.
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If he was eyeballing it that's it's hard to be right on it.

Were you talking directly to him, asking questions etc?

VMC, see and be seen
 
My favorite line, which I think I made up... "There is nothing more dangerous in crowded airspace than a really bad pilot with really good radio skills."

:mad2:

I was in the pattern at HVN one day. Someone proclaimed they were 10 west to land. A few minutes later they're on the radio reporting they have a "strange blinking blue light on the panel." This made them extremely confused and afraid the plane was about to fall out of the sky. Of course, I knew this was an outer marker. I also know there are no outer markers anywhere near where this person claimed they were. Which begged the question, where are they really? I think the only airport with an OM was like 30 miles NW.

:mad2:
 
It's VFR, it happens. Get over it.

Fly a less popular route. I doubt any shoreline can be classified as such.
 
I can't tell you how many times "DAILY" i hear: " Tower, cessna XYZ 10 to the west with tango, full stop"

tower replies: "cessna XYZ report 4mi straight in at or above 1500 RNY 26, and you said your 10 west west of the airport? say ALT.

Pilot replies: "Descending out of 3500"

Tower replies: "Ah sir I'm showing a target 10 to the east of the field"
At this point the pilot tries to make up some stupid excuse, or simply admits his or her mistake.
This kind of thing is usually picked up pretty quickly by the tower when its slow, but when things get busy, it can get interesting in a hurry.
 
There used to be a controller in the tower at CHO who would actively argue with pilots about where they were when they made position reports. I'd be right over Gordonsville (I could look down and see the airport) and she'd still argue otherwise.
 
I was shooting an approach into KGRI under the hood when a citation jet reported in "Grand Island tower citation Xxxx over the river inbound for landing with delta". Tower responded "sir the river stretches from one horizon to the other. You need to do better than that. Where are you?" The citation pilot couldn't explain where he was and tower was forced to break off my approach because he couldn't describe even his direction from the airport. GRI has no radar.


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Um, please realize there is a human flying the other airplane. I've made a mistakes like this before. Fly somewhere new or get complacent on a familiar location and there you are.

I'm still learning, but one of my strongest beliefs is that I'm not a super pilot and I've yet to meet one. Additionally, I now brief all approaches- even VFR. Finally, I assume there is at least one guy out there not talking (no radio).

But yea, close calls like this get the blood rushing... Good job using a pax as part of the crew...
 
That could be a good reason to enter at a 45, no? I'm just messing. Not serious. Do not attack.


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There are all kinds of idiots at HAF on the rare clear day.

Report LANDMARKS, not distance. The army of student pilots practicing nontowered ops generally doesn't have GPS, but they can clearly see the GREEN golf course you were just about to fly over in the dry season. It's on the TAC.

And read the A/FD. Straight-ins are prohibited at that airport. Not that everyone doesn't do it anyway.
 
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Look, someone says 5 miles from the airport. By your GPS you are 3 or 7, whatever. You are fairly close also. So tell him your altitude and ask him his. Then fly at different altitudes. Its not that complicated.

There are lots of distances to use from an airport. GPS distance (which is distance from the airport "centerpoini"), round ball estimates, distance from downwind, distance from the runway, spitting distance, keep your distance and distant relatives. Who knows? But altitude seperation, that one works no matter where you are.
 
coloradobluesky said:
Look, someone says 5 miles from the airport. By your GPS you are 3 or 7, whatever. You are fairly close also. So tell him your altitude and ask him his. Then fly at different altitudes. Its not that complicated.

There are lots of distances to use from an airport. GPS distance (which is distance from the airport "centerpoini"), round ball estimates, distance from downwind, distance from the runway, spitting distance, keep your distance and distant relatives. Who knows? But altitude seperation, that one works no matter where you are.
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What if you are caped by class c or b airspace?
 
brian];1543057 said:
What if you are caped by class c or b airspace?
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You can still get a few hundred feet of separation.

Either way, the world is not perfect, distances are not exact, and a plane can be anywhere, regardless of whether they make a position report or not. Stay vigilant, use ATC when possible, and look outside the plane, using all available resources (as the OP did, using passengers). Stay safe out there.
 
MAKG1 said:
Report LANDMARKS, not distance. The army of student pilots practicing nontowered ops generally doesn't have GPS, but they can clearly see the GREEN golf course you were just about to fly over in the dry season. It's on the TAC.
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Landmarks don't tend to be very useful for transient pilots.
 
I agree, im one of those people that make several radio calls and try to be as accurate as possible. Once i was inbound to my home airport, one a/c didnt have its radio working so i was keeping an eye out. Anyway i came from the southeast and entered a crosswind approach for RWY 23 made my calls, kept looking for him no sight. Turned final and landed and as i was back taxiing i saw him going around. He was basically behind me while i was final. Really no biggie, but one thing to learn was keep a big eye out for planes without radios.
 
MAKG1 said:
They are if you think about it a bit.



They may not know names, but if they can't spot the only green thing of any size for 25 miles, maybe flying isn't such a good idea.
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And when it rains and everything is green then what?


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Shawn said:
Fling into KHAF for dinner...after a few other position reports I hear "Half Moon Bay Traffic, Diamond 3WT 5 miles to the south 2500' descending straight in runway 30"

I am 8 miles out (verified distance on foreflight and 430)on final at 2000' for straight in 30 and announce as such...no traffic in sight and ask where he is again..."5 Miles out along the shoreline"..."OK, I am 8 miles out along the shoreline do not have you in sight, reducing speed"

My rear passenger looks up out of the back window and says "He is right on top of us!" I am in a high wing and he is in a low wing descending right into me!...Ruh Row!

Meh, whats a few miles among friends?

My passengers enjoyed the nose dive at least.

Twit.
Click to expand...

Straight in goons are a menace to aviation. So are guys with no radios.
 
coloradobluesky said:
Look, someone says 5 miles from the airport. By your GPS you are 3 or 7, whatever. You are fairly close also. So tell him your altitude and ask him his. Then fly at different altitudes. Its not that complicated.
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Nothing wrong with reporting your altitude but if you are both landing or taking off from the airport you will not be remaining at the same altitude and neither will they.

Position reporting using landmarks or estimated distances has never been an exact science and never will be, especially since airplanes are always moving and where they were a minute ago is not where they are now.
 
I started flying before magic boxes, distance reported is a general guess. The system still works that way, and I laugh at people that report distance to tenths.
 
James331 said:
VMC, see and be seen
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That was one of the challenges...low wing above high wing below. No chance of seeing each other. It is one of those cases where an accident as often is would be a result of a combination of factors, one of which being bad position reporting which IS preventable.

Cpt_Kirk said:
It's VFR, it happens. Get over it.

Fly a less popular route. I doubt any shoreline can be classified as such.
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I am not one to avoid busy or complicated airspace outta fear or uncertainty and understand the risks and that there are others in the air that are less focused on precision or safety and those that the FAA hazardous attitudes were produced for, many times expressed by pilots on this very board.

peerlesscowboy said:
I've found that pilots (myself included) are not very good at estimating distances visually.
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Agree, nor am I...but I did see his stack on the ramp and with the 430 he had, ballpark shouldn't have been necessary. When I am not dead on I add "approximately" to my 5 miles out. But that is just me!

CTLSi said:
Straight in goons are a menace to aviation
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I am always "straight in traffic permitting". If there is traffic in the pattern, I join the pattern. This scenario wouldn't have mattered if we were both on a stright in to both on an entry for the pattern.

I have a whole list of "goons" that are further up the list of menaces than straight in pilots!

Point of posting this was not "how dare he" because mistakes are made all the time...even by me...but just to remind everyone that being sloppy can have serious consequences. I wish I could say I was preaching to the choir, but I know there are those here that will still insist that it is MY problem!
 
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Shawn said:
I am always "straight in traffic permitting". If there is traffic in the pattern, I join the pattern. This scenario wouldn't have mattered if we were both on a stright in to both on an entry for the pattern.
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There may be planes in the pattern who are not talking. Just because you don't hear them doesn't mean they're not in the pattern. For this reason if it's VFR it is more polite and probably safer to set up for a normal pattern entry.
 
When I'm approaching an airport for landing, I execute periodic S-turns so I can check above and below me for traffic that I might otherwise be synchronized with, and also become more visible to them. That tactic may be the most reliable way (without radar) to notice if someone on the same track is descending into you, or you into them. Radios are a helpful supplement, but seeing and avoiding is primary.
 
I"m no fan of chatting on the radio, but it's part of being a good aviator. So, when I need to communicate, I do. I'm also no big fan of gadgetry making flying 'better' but there's no question that even a $200 used GPS will give better position accuracy than looking out the window. A backup GPS, even in the most basic of planes is darn useful for situations like this, and like when all the lights in the panel go out.

So, I'm with the OP on this. If you got the goodies, and you are on the radio, the least I ask is that you accurately report your position. Don't need tenths, but accurate miles and altitude, corrected for local when you can will really help from bending Al.

My experience was at Ada OK one afternoon when I approached from the SW. I reported 10 miles out, and was listening for a good 5 minutes. As soon as I was off the radio, another plane reported from SW at 10 miles out. That woke me right up, and I had very light on, and was wagging the wings looking. I called not in sight, and kept looking. Well, after a few more minutes, the other plane called back that he was inbound on a 45 for runway 35. Huh? That puts you to the NORTH WEST SIR. I followed him and landed uneventfully.
 
CTLSi said:
Straight in goons are a menace to aviation. So are guys with no radios.
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So almost every professional pilot is a menace to aviation?

I hardly ever do a 45 to downwind or cross mid field at work, nor does really any paid pilot outside of a CFI with a student.

And the no radio thing is their right, though not something I would do.

That's like me saying anyone without a full ATP and not working full time as a pilot is a menace to aviation.
 
Pilots arriving at Watsonville are known to report over the river & the freeway (good landmark for a four-mile 45) when they're anywhere within a three-mile radius of there. I once saw/heard a guy call river & the freeway at 2000 when he was four miles east at 3000.

Eyes outside in VMC.
 
Shawn said:
I agree and fully expect and look out for NORAD traffic, but I would expect that if you ARE reporting, it IS correct!
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Yeah, if you come busting through the ADIZ NORDO, you best be looking for NORAD traffic.;)
 
ateamer said:
Pilots arriving at Watsonville are known to report over the river & the freeway (good landmark for a four-mile 45) when they're anywhere within a three-mile radius of there. I once saw/heard a guy call river & the freeway at 2000 when he was four miles east at 3000.

Eyes outside in VMC.
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Good point. Pilots suck at looking straight down. How are low wing pilots supposed to report over something?:lol:
 
James331 said:
So almost every professional pilot is a menace to aviation?

I hardly ever do a 45 to downwind or cross mid field at work, nor does really any paid pilot outside of a CFI with a student.

And the no radio thing is their right, though not something I would do.

That's like me saying anyone without a full ATP and not working full time as a pilot is a menace to aviation.
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You said it yourself. If you fly straight in, especially if you are an arrogant 'professional' pilot, you are menace to everyone else.

What gives you the right to break into a pattern full of students?

The field and the air are a public resource. You are a member of the public, not the prince of your plane.
 
There's far more airports that see 0-6 movements per day than have a pattern full of students, and those students better learn to deal with straight in traffic because almost every airline and IFR approach to any airport will be straight in.
 
CTLSi said:
You said it yourself. If you fly straight in, especially if you are an arrogant 'professional' pilot, you are menace to everyone else.

What gives you the right to break into a pattern full of students?

The field and the air are a public resource. You are a member of the public, not the prince of your plane.
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That's a great theory. But would require more regulation than I'm comfortable with. It's a free for all in some cases, and yet the number of mid-airs around untowered fields seems remarkably, vanishingly small, although it does happen.

I take it you've never been to a field with an active crop dusting operation in May/June? Those guys are great pilots, but man - it's move or get run over! :eek:
 
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