Plans for ADS-B out

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Code90

Pre-takeoff checklist
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Code90
We are planning to add a G530w or adding another radio in our plane that currently has G430 and old Narco radio. Want to be ready to upgrade to meet ADS-B out requirement. Have looked at GDL 88. Has anyone else already crossed this bridge lately? What solutions has everyone planned? Would expect there will be more solutions coming out (and cheaper) as we get closer to 2020.
 
It's an interesting question because it is still six years away. Certainly a lot will change by then (obviously).

It makes sense Garmin will want to be in the game, where a small number of companies compete and they exercise control over the price at which they offer their product. In a very real sense, we are at their mercy.

However, right now there is a smaller market for ADS-B out which will change as 2020 draws near. This will (hopefully) attract more firms with more options. Garmin will take the lion's share because they are a price maker, until the rest do what they can to shift the demand curve in their favor.

When does that start, 2018 maybe? One thing for sure, it will be interesting to see what develops.
 
I installed the GDL88 back in November, it is connected to my 430W. The traffic is the reason I did it now. I also have stratus 2, i pad and foreflight. When there happened to be someone with ads-b out near me I could see traffic on the i pad, kind of got spoiled and had to have that capability full time. Now I have traffic and weather on the 430W as well as on foreflight. It definitely makes spotting other traffic easier and you see them before atc points them out to you.
 
Pegasus said:
I installed the GDL88 back in November, it is connected to my 430W. The traffic is the reason I did it now. I also have stratus 2, i pad and foreflight. When there happened to be someone with ads-b out near me I could see traffic on the i pad, kind of got spoiled and had to have that capability full time. Now I have traffic and weather on the 430W as well as on foreflight. It definitely makes spotting other traffic easier and you see them before atc points them out to you.
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If you don't have a heading input to your 430W, some good news. Garmin just released software version 5.10 that adds GDL88 traffic to the map page.
 
Maybe should wait it out and see if the requirement gets held back further. Just don't want to have my head in the sand when the time comes to install it.

Pegasus: How do you like the weather on Stratus vs others? I thought it looked rather blocky / pixilated (compared to yoke mounted Garmins). Nice to not have a monthly subscription cost though. Was the weather from the GDL 88 as pixilated as the Stratus?
 
Code90 said:
Maybe should wait it out and see if the requirement gets held back further. Just don't want to have my head in the sand when the time comes to install it.

Pegasus: How do you like the weather on Stratus vs others? I thought it looked rather blocky / pixilated (compared to yoke mounted Garmins). Nice to not have a monthly subscription cost though. Was the weather from the GDL 88 as pixilated as the Stratus?
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Code90,
The weather from the Stratus and the GDL88 are the same. The ads-b weather is blocky compared to the xm weather on my 496. However if the display shows red, don't go there. I like the weather presentation on the Ipad the best as it is easy to change the range and scroll around. I don't miss paying the weather subscription price or the subscription for charts that I may or may not use. To me Foreflight with the Pro subscription of $150 a year and the stratus works for my flying needs.
 
The Regional NEXRAD product is essentially the same resolution as XM. This product is generally available up to several hundreds of miles up to 400 miles around your position. The CONUS NEXRAD product is blocky and a pixel covers a box whose dimensions are 5 times the Regional NEXRAD product (25 times the area). So NEXRAD close to your position is not any blockier than XM, but far off it is much blockier than XM.
 
John: is there any way to get the pixels less blocky on the ipad with Stratus? Seems like even with zooming in, it's still very blocky. It's definitely been my experience that I can pick a way through the clouds easier with a Garmin on the yoke (with XM connect).
 
We fly within the 30nm Mode C veil, so we will need ADS-B out on our very simple very basic glider tow plane. It appears that all ADSB out requires an IFR certified WAAS gps for data to the mode S extended squitter or UAT. Don't need nor have space for ADSB in data display.

Has anyone seen advertised a single box gps reciever ADSB out? I think the Garmin GDL88 comes close, and if I read correctly it will match the xpndr code from our antiquated Mode C and does not need direct wire connection.
 
BillTIZ said:
We fly within the 30nm Mode C veil, so we will need ADS-B out on our very simple very basic glider tow plane. It appears that all ADSB out requires an IFR certified WAAS gps for data to the mode S extended squitter or UAT. Don't need nor have space for ADSB in data display.

Has anyone seen advertised a single box gps reciever ADSB out? I think the Garmin GDL88 comes close, and if I read correctly it will match the xpndr code from our antiquated Mode C and does not need direct wire connection.
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Not yet, but I expect it. My educated guess is that Trig will announce a transponder with a built in position source. I would expect it to sell for $3000 to $4000.
 
BillTIZ said:
Has anyone seen advertised a single box gps reciever ADSB out? I think the Garmin GDL88 comes close, and if I read correctly it will match the xpndr code from our antiquated Mode C and does not need direct wire connection.
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The King KT74 transponder may do what you want. All it needs to do ADS-B out is an input from an altitude encoder and a WAAS gps.

You can get a WAAS gps in a small self contained box that provides a legal gps input to the transponder but nothing else (no user interface device at all).

This should be much cheaper than adding a full WAAS nav system.
 
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JimNtexas said:
The King KT74 transponder may do what you want. All it needs to do ADS-B out is an input from an altitude encoder and a WAAS gps.

You can get a WAAS gps in a small self contained box that provides a legal gps input to the transponder but nothing else (no user interface device at all).

This should be much cheaper than adding a full WAAS nav system.
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A quick look shows the GPS as a $3k item. Added to the $3k transponder and installation costs, it will still be painfully expensive.

The really sad thing is that several top shelf vendors (e.g. Garmin) offer high quality WAAS GPS pucks that output all of the relevant information, but aren't TSO'd. The street prices for those can get into the $100 range. Here's one:

http://www.thegpsstore.com/Garmin-G...y-P1841.aspx?gclid=CNn9ypuewLwCFZNj7AodR3MA8Q

(It comes in several flavors, including one with bare wire outputs, suitable for wiring to whatever device you want.)
 
BillTIZ said:
Has anyone seen advertised a single box gps reciever ADSB out?
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No. I know from friends working in this area at AEA and FAA that there are in development/certification some units that are ADS-B-out devices with a integral GPS chip so you don't need a full WAAS GPS navigator unit like the Garmin 4xxW to provide the positioning data. However, I've not yet heard of anyone working on a full WAAS navigator box like the Garmin GPS4xxW with an added integral ADS-B-out capability incorporated. So far, everything I've heard says if you want a full WAAS GPS navigator and ADS-B out, you're going to need at least two boxes (e.g., Garmin 4xxW plus either GTX330ES or GDL-88).
 
JimNtexas said:
The King KT74 transponder may do what you want. All it needs to do ADS-B out is an input from an altitude encoder and a WAAS gps.

You can get a WAAS gps in a small self contained box that provides a legal gps input to the transponder but nothing else (no user interface device at all).

This should be much cheaper than adding a full WAAS nav system.
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Looks like this will fill the bill. We don't need a full IFR WAAS capable gps, just the position feed and data to the transponder to provide ADSB out requirements.

Thanks!
 
kyleb said:
A quick look shows the GPS as a $3k item. Added to the $3k transponder and installation costs, it will still be painfully expensive.

The really sad thing is that several top shelf vendors (e.g. Garmin) offer high quality WAAS GPS pucks that output all of the relevant information, but aren't TSO'd. The street prices for those can get into the $100 range. Here's one:

http://www.thegpsstore.com/Garmin-G...y-P1841.aspx?gclid=CNn9ypuewLwCFZNj7AodR3MA8Q

(It comes in several flavors, including one with bare wire outputs, suitable for wiring to whatever device you want.)
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Yes, $6K + for a plain old Pawnee for glider tow inside the Mode C veil. $45K airplane value. We'll be completing an overhaul on the Pawnee at about the same time.
 
Pegasus said:
Code90,
The weather from the Stratus and the GDL88 are the same. The ads-b weather is blocky compared to the xm weather on my 496. However if the display shows red, don't go there. I like the weather presentation on the Ipad the best as it is easy to change the range and scroll around. I don't miss paying the weather subscription price or the subscription for charts that I may or may not use. To me Foreflight with the Pro subscription of $150 a year and the stratus works for my flying needs.
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Thanks for the info. I have foreflight and garmin 496 w/ XM. Looking to meet ADS-B out. Figured the GDL88 w/ GPS was my best route for the ADS-B out. Use the foreflight and Status 2 for ADS-B in weather / traffic and cancel my XM weather. But kicking around changing to the GDL39-3D and Garmin Pilot, to just match up.... Any thoughts on which is better?
 
2020 is an eternity in FAA time. think the last 2 minutes of a football game, magnified. I can't see basing any purchasing decisions in 2014 on any of those criteria.
 
JHW said:
2020 is an eternity in FAA time. think the last 2 minutes of a football game, magnified. I can't see basing any purchasing decisions in 2014 on any of those criteria.
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The problem isn't the FAA, it's the avionics manufacturers. If you wait until the last minute to get your ADS-B-out device, you may find yourself at the tail end of a very long waiting list. Folks from AEA are saying that manufacturers are not going to ramp up production to supply the entire fleet in just a few months and then have unneeded production capacity thereafter when the demand drops to a trickle for only new production aircraft and replacements. Not saying you have to order/install now to be ready for 2020, but if you wait until December 2019, you may not have it for a very long time.
 
BillTIZ said:
Yes, $6K + for a plain old Pawnee for glider tow inside the Mode C veil. $45K airplane value. We'll be completing an overhaul on the Pawnee at about the same time.
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But look at the bright side. The King transponder is a 1090ES, which means they can operate their Pawnee in the flight levels! :goofy:
 
Exactly, plus most of this new equipment needs certified installation. The radio shops will also be loaded up with a long list of later procrastinaters.
 
Ron Levy said:
The problem isn't the FAA, it's the avionics manufacturers. If you wait until the last minute to get your ADS-B-out device, you may find yourself at the tail end of a very long waiting list. Folks from AEA are saying that manufacturers are not going to ramp up production to supply the entire fleet in just a few months and then have unneeded production capacity thereafter when the demand drops to a trickle for only new production aircraft and replacements. Not saying you have to order/install now to be ready for 2020, but if you wait until December 2019, you may not have it for a very long time.
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I doubt it, because in 2019, 2020 will become 2024, rinse, repeat.

If not, no big deal, just yank out the transponder and carry on.
 
Ron Levy said:
Who was it that said "Hope is not a strategy"? If flying in what is currently transponder-required airspace is a requirement for you, I would counsel against hoping for a delay.
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A lot can happen in 6 years. I might be dead by then. I might have to stop flying. I might have a different airplane. I might live somewhere else.
Someone might come out with a lower cost option to comply with the regulations.

Flush the money down the toilet now and hope that it was the right thing?

Who was it that said "Hope is not a strategy"?

On September 3, 2008, at the Republican National convention, former New York City Mayor Rudy Giuliani was the first to use the phrase "hope is not a strategy. Specifically, his convention speech included these words:
"Because 'change' is not a destination, just as 'hope' is not a strategy.
​
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Oh, yea. That's right. It came from the party that lost the election.
 
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spot on. The only "hope" right now is "I hope that I'm not wasting my money buying hardware that becomes obsolete every few years to comply with a regulation that may or may not happen 6 years from now"
 
Code90 said:
John: is there any way to get the pixels less blocky on the ipad with Stratus? Seems like even with zooming in, it's still very blocky. It's definitely been my experience that I can pick a way through the clouds easier with a Garmin on the yoke (with XM connect).
Click to expand...

I'd like to know the answer to this too. I'd like to jump off the XM Puck to the GDL39, but the presentation on my Aera 510 is really nice and I haven't been overly thrilled w/ the blockiness on the pads...
 
Freefilght Builds a version of their certified Ranger box that is ads b out only and has a built in gps. Advertised for 4+ amu's.

Vr
Jim
 
ADS-B weather data is lower resolution than the XM/Sirius weather data. So, it is a little blockier. Regional vs. nationwide ADS-B weather has different "blockiness" resolutions, as well. The weather close to your receiver will be higher resolution than the national weather data covering the country on your display in an ADS-B tech setup.

But - in the for what it's worth department - it's very important to know and remember that any weather data other than radar could be many, many minutes old - even more than 15 minutes possibly. Even if my GPS or ADS-B receiver just received the data a few seconds ago, it's at least 10 minutes old because it's collected, processed, prepped for transmission,a dn then batch transmitted on a schedule before I get it. Picking one's way through clouds/weather based on the display of any of this data is dicey at best, and dangerous at worst. A gap between the clouds or storm cells 10 or 20 minutes ago is not necessarily there now.

Of course, it can be useful for a lot of decisions. I just cringe at the idea of threading needles with delayed data. People have died, and that sucks.
 
Ron Levy said:
Who was it that said "Hope is not a strategy"? If flying in what is currently transponder-required airspace is a requirement for you, I would counsel against hoping for a delay.
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+1.

I want to get into ADS/B world sooner than later, for the simple reason that I would like to have access to traffic and the WX without the $55/mo I am now paying to XM. Does the ADS/B WX have most (if not all) of the same stuff? Winds aloft, PIREPS, etc.?

greghughes said:
...

Of course, it can be useful for a lot of decisions. I just cringe at the idea of threading needles with delayed data. People have died, and that sucks.
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Amen; I like the combination of XM for strategic planning (...what's up a couple of hundred miles ahead), and the Strikefinder (somewhat) and visual separation (mostly) up close. I never fly into a cloud where I think there may be convective stuff - that is just not interesting to me!
 
SCCutler said:
I want to get into ADS/B world sooner than later, for the simple reason that I would like to have access to traffic and the WX without the $55/mo I am now paying to XM. Does the ADS/B WX have most (if not all) of the same stuff? Winds aloft, PIREPS, etc.?
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FIS-B offers the following:

  • Aviation weather info such as METARs, TAFs, winds aloft and NEXRAD maps
  • Temporary flight restrictions (TFRs) and status updates for special use airspace (SUA)
  • AIRMETs, SIGMETs and convective SIGMETs
  • Pilot Reports (PIREPs)
  • NOTAMs (Distant and FDC)

Also, NavWorx has a pretty good list that includes update intervals and transmission intervals: http://www.navworx.com/PDFs/FIS-B_products.pdf
 
SCCutler said:
+1.

I want to get into ADS/B world sooner than later, for the simple reason that I would like to have access to traffic and the WX without the $55/mo I am now paying to XM. Does the ADS/B WX have most (if not all) of the same stuff? Winds aloft, PIREPS, etc.?
Click to expand...

My airplane partner has a widget that fits on his iPad (I still remember all the jokes when Apple introduced those things) that brings in all the ADS/B goodies. I think the widget needs its own power source, though.
 
With XMWX at $55/mo, ADS/B has a pretty quick payoff horizon. I believe the change is coming sooner than later, with the principal question being which hardware to buy.
 
One thing I have been curious about is what differences might exist between UAT and 1090ES. We have the choice of either format. I have access to the specs, but haven't found time to sift through it all. 1090ES (aka Mode S) by definition encodes your registration number (the 24 bit ICAO code) into every broadcast. Is UAT that way? Does it matter, probably not, but I like anonymity. It's a personal freedom choice.
 
kontiki said:
One thing I have been curious about is what differences might exist between UAT and 1090ES. We have the choice of either format. I have access to the specs, but haven't found time to sift through it all. 1090ES (aka Mode S) by definition encodes your registration number (the 24 bit ICAO code) into every broadcast. Is UAT that way? Does it matter, probably not, but I like anonymity. It's a personal freedom choice.
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There are substantial and significant differences, starting with the fact that ADS-B is only 1090ES outside the USA, and UAT only works inside the USA. The FAA's take is here, Avidyne has an explanation of that here, there's a military/international presentation here, and Garmin has a tutorial stating here.
 
UAT is the only ADS-B Out that offers an "anonymous VFR" mode. Lots of folks are holding out for an affordable UAT system because of that reason alone.
 
Although 1090ES is the international standard for ADS-B, this is not an issue for US pilots who own UAT based equipment as there is no country in our hemisphere that requires ADS-B below 18000 MSL. I also can't find any country in our hemisphere that is planning on requiring ADS-B. Canada has an ADS-B requirement in the high flight levels above Hudson Bay, but that is it. My Bonanza can't get to FL290. So although the statement is true that 1090ES is the international standard, it is irrelevant for US aircraft that fly below 18000 MSL.
 
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