Plane crash at my home airport today

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48dodge

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48dodge
http://www.postandcourier.com/artic...mount-pleasant-plane-crash-authorities-report

I only knew of one 150 at KLRO and it belongs to the flight school I train with. My CFI would have been in it. It turns out the other flight school had just gotten one as well so my CFI was ok. It was really hard to make that phone call to the school knowing it had to be him. It sounds like they may have done the impossible turn.
 
RIP. Sorry to hear:

"It turned around to return to the airport, then nosedived into the ground, Bustos told the newspaper."
 
Apparently it was their newest CFI that was hired to replace one that died on the way to work a few weeks ago. I know Joe Bustos.
 
My CFI talked to a witness that said they'd tried to take off with full flaps. Dumped them all at once which caused the nosedive. Plane looks like it is angled about 45deg from the rwy so maybe not a turn just a wing drop. Not sure if it was a touch and go, go around or normal takeoff.
 
It was a normal takeoff roll. Apparently the checklist calls for full flap deployment during runup. They apparently forgot to pull them back up. So many other ways it should have turned out today
 
Doesn't a 152 have electric flaps? That pretty much _makes_ you retract them slowly, doesn't it?
 
Full flap during run up? I always put flaps down during preflight and put up prior to taxing.
 
48dodge said:
It was a normal takeoff roll. Apparently the checklist calls for full flap deployment during runup. They apparently forgot to pull them back up. So many other ways it should have turned out today
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Yikes, full flaps in a 152 normally doesn't make for the best climb. I've never heard of a checklist calling for full flaps during the run up. Is this a school rule/policy?
 
Yikes, that's a nasty looking face plant.

The report says they turned around. Is it wrong?

It does not look at all like a wing drop. It landed STRAIGHT on its face.
 
I'm not sure. Going off what my CFI got from a witness. Don't know if he talked to Joe Bustos or if there was another witness. Don't know about the checklist. I know with the 172 they're back up soon after the engine starts and checked twice before takeoff.
 
48dodge said:
Apparently the checklist calls for full flap deployment during runup.
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I doubt it.
150 was my trainer and I never had flaps down during run-up.

However this accident reminds me of a very similar accident described in detail in the FLYING magazine.
This was a freshly minted, 19-year old Cirrus pilot (going to Naval Academy) who decided to take his family for a flight after he got his PPL. He took 172 but he knew the plane little - his whole training was in a Cirrus. In Cirruses you aparently play with flaps during preflight, in a Cessna it isn't needed. He must have cycled flaps as he was used to in a Cirrus but forgot to raise them - he took off with full flaps and all perished. Anyway the difference between how you handle flaps during preflight in 172 versus Cirrus was the basis of this article.
 
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Ouch.

If all else fails, run the "killer items" checklist. Fuel, flaps, trim, and flight controls.
 
My cfi has made me take off with full flaps to show me what it feels like and how to stay alive when it happens. I'm flying a warrior not a cessna, don't know how much that matters. Very sad news though. Prayers for the families.
 
MAKG1 said:
It does not look at all like a wing drop. It landed STRAIGHT on its face.
Click to expand...

A wing drop can lead to a spin real quick, and that's what a spun-in airplane will look like.

Dan
 
The 150 is not going to be a good flyer with full flaps on takeoff. Thought the flaps where checked on walk around pre flight. May they rest in peace.
 
Student was a former linebacker headed for the special forces. Odds are pretty good he wasn't tiny. Add an instructor, fuel and full flaps....the poor little 150 was bound to be struggling. Very sad.
 
If the flaps deployed are proximate here, it's a huge mistake in that the plane will operate and land just fine without flaps. Cycling them on run up is just asking for something like this.

Very sad.
 
docmirror said:
If the flaps deployed are proximate here, it's a huge mistake in that the plane will operate and land just fine without flaps. Cycling them on run up is just asking for something like this.

Very sad.
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I operate around this theory, though in a different airplane. If for some reason the flaps don't work for landing, no big deal. I do understand the importance of checklists.
 
Also on quite a few bigger and working planes we don't cycle the flaps for every walk around.

It's engine start, takeoff flaps, checks and blastoff.


Sounds like this might have been one of those schools with the multipage super checklists

super checklist < KISS
 
The 150 POH calls for the flaps to be extended (doesn't say fully however). This is primarily because with the flaps fully retracted, it's not possible to inspect it properly without doing so. On other aircraft this is not the case (for example it is not necessary to do this with the Navion as you can't see anything more with the flaps fully extended than with them retracted...and unless you want to do a lot of hand pumping, you can't extend the flaps without the engine running anyway).

I also don't think that retracting the flaps "all at once" made a difference. This was a 1974 150 and the electric flaps don't move that fast. It would take some serious not paying attention to stall it from that. They may have tried retracting flaps, but it looks like they were in the severe "failing to climb" situation (possibly due to trying to depart with full flaps on a high DA day).

I've managed to take off with full flaps in the Navion. Boy it sure shortens the ground roll, but it doesn't climb worth a dog. I'm sure glad that I have 60 more HP than the original Navions did.
 
I never put down the flaps to preflight my 150 when I had it. My reasoning:

a. Wasn't necessary. The thing landed just fine without them. If they failed to deploy on landing it would be a non event

b. if they stayed down for the takeoff roll I could die

c. they could come down and refuse to come back up. I've seen it happen.

Of course now I fly a Cherokee, which still doesn't really need flaps. That said I deploy them, since it's just a Johnson bar which is far less likely to break than electric motors.
 
I'm heading to the airport to take my written at 1 today. Taking it with the school involved.
 
The point of extending the flaps is not just to see if they work. You can't inspect the operating linkage NOR the tracks/rollers unless you do so.

A. It landed just fine at THIS airport. If they were never needed they wouldn't be there.

B. It behooves you to make sure they are set for takeoff. It's just as likely they are at full extension because they were that way when you landed. In fact the full flap takeoff I did in the Navion was a takeoff after a land and taxi back for takeoff. I skipped steps in the checklist to my detriment.

C. If tehy are inoperative , I'd like to find out about it on the ground. Inoperative BUT retracted is STILL UNAIRWORTHY and it is illegal and ill-advised to fly in that condition.

But you know more than the engineers at Cessna who wrote the POH and took the plane through certification, so do what you want.
 
flyingron said:
The point of extending the flaps is not just to see if they work. You can't inspect the operating linkage NOR the tracks/rollers unless you do so.

A. It landed just fine at THIS airport. If they were never needed they wouldn't be there.
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I'll be generous, and assume they were put there for training purposes. Sorry, never needed them to land anywhere. The airplane was slow.

flyingron said:
B. It behooves you to make sure they are set for takeoff. It's just as likely they are at full extension because they were that way when you landed. In fact the full flap takeoff I did in the Navion was a takeoff after a land and taxi back for takeoff. I skipped steps in the checklist to my detriment.
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If you don't deploy them in preflight you know right where they are when you go to take off.

flyingron said:
C. If tehy are inoperative , I'd like to find out about it on the ground. Inoperative BUT retracted is STILL UNAIRWORTHY and it is illegal and ill-advised to fly in that condition.
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All you know is they deployed on the ground. Damn things could break on the way back up.

flyingron said:
But you know more than the engineers at Cessna who wrote the POH and took the plane through certification, so do what you want.
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Engineers at Cessna aren't flying the thing. I am.
 
It always depends on the plane you are flying.
Only rarely do I fly a plane that requires flap for a normal takeoff. And I (almost) never cycle the flaps on the ground on my airplane.
If they don't come down during landing it is a so-what (shrug) deal - it means nothing because I often land no-flap or just a quarter flap.
Again, it always boils down to the same thing - USE the damned check list :mad2: - if you don't use it, it can't help you.
 
Far be it for me to disagree with the engineers who wrote the 150 POH, but I will disagree. Guess another notch in my 'cowboy' belt.

Flaps are technically a 'flight control' but they are a special case in that the functioning of them doesn't really affect the outcome of the flight with the exception of the case where they don't deploy, and a no flap appr and landing is made. Since I am not well versed in the operation of small Cessnas I wonder if students learn a no flap approach and landing during training? I would presume so.

My opinion on this is not shaped by this accident, but by the well-known issues with climbing while flaps are deployed, and the dangers of retracting flaps in the air. These two potential danger mechanisms would seem to seriously outweigh the value of a ground test of the flaps before takeoff, given that the plane will land just fine without them.
 
Wow that sucks.

I am in the "deploy during preflight school" to check linkage and rollers on both rental Cessna's and in my Dakota. Not so much to make sure they work for a landing but to make sure one wont stick, half deploy, etc. Those are the potential issues I would like to avoid.

If the took off with flaps deployed fully then they missed several steps in any checklist I've seen and also didn't look out the window since they are right in your face if you turn your head to check for traffic, while taxing, etc.

Seems one of these happens every year or so. Sad. :(

Remember the 3 F's Flaps, Fuel, Flight Controls....
 
So if one does accidentally take off with those giant barn doors hanging down off the wings, what is the "proper" procedure?

My thoughts would be as follows:
1. Oh crap.
2. Airspeed.
3. Retract a little bit
4. Airspeed.
5. Retract a little bit more.
6. Airspeed
7. Eventually you get back to what would be configured for a short field takeoff.
8. Continue as if it was a short field take off for flap retract and airspeed.
 
olasek said:
I doubt it.
150 was my trainer and I never had flaps down during run-up.
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I fly a Cherokee and it's on my "Takeoff checklist" (which I do in the run up area after the Runup checklist). It calls for "Flaps- checked and set". Put them in and take them out to make sure they work. So they may have forgotten to set (retract for normal takeoff) them. I think the checklists are pretty similar, I flew a 172 once.

Last week, on my first touch and go, I got a brain fart and forgot to take out the flaps and I took off. The plane wasn't climbing very well, and my instructor said flaps, and like a bobo I took out all 3 at once and the plane dipped down some but not much (I was already about 200 AGL), but learned my lesson. I know to take them out one at a time, but had a stupid moment. In this hobby, a stupid moment could be your last moment.

To the OP, my condolences.
 
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docmirror said:
I wonder if students learn a no flap approach and landing during training? I would presume so.
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I know that I did. In the spring, we had very windy days (almost each time I went up I had 12+ knot winds and gusts up to 20). My instructor suggested we land no flaps on very windy days, better control of the plane.
 
ChemGuy said:
I am in the "deploy during preflight school" to check linkage and rollers on both rental Cessna's and in my Dakota. Not so much to make sure they work for a landing but to make sure one wont stick, half deploy, etc. Those are the potential issues I would like to avoid.
Click to expand...

What makes deploying the flaps prior to flight insure it won't stick, or half deploy in the air? All you can say from that test is that they worked at the time they were tested.
 
Pedals2Paddles said:
So if one does accidentally take off with those giant barn doors hanging down off the wings, what is the "proper" procedure?

My thoughts would be as follows:
1. Oh crap.
2. Airspeed.
3. Retract a little bit
4. Airspeed.
5. Retract a little bit more.
6. Airspeed
7. Eventually you get back to what would be configured for a short field takeoff.
8. Continue as if it was a short field take off for flap retract and airspeed.
Click to expand...


Add in: no turns and step on the ball!
 
I was taught to check the flaps on the 152 and 172. However, you do that before getting into the airplane and starting the engine. You retract the flaps before taxi.

In retrospect, I have to agree that the flap check is optional at best, and probably not a good idea.
 
The bonanza is similar : you have to drop the flaps to check the channel the roller moves in. It can become worn and give you an issue...

Takeoff with full flaps in my - 35 would likely be a problem... Especially on grass..
 
Pedals2Paddles said:
So if one does accidentally take off with those giant barn doors hanging down off the wings, what is the "proper" procedure?

My thoughts would be as follows:
1. Oh crap.
2. Airspeed.
3. Retract a little bit
4. Airspeed.
5. Retract a little bit more.
6. Airspeed
7. Eventually you get back to what would be configured for a short field takeoff.
8. Continue as if it was a short field take off for flap retract and airspeed.
Click to expand...

Learn how to do a go-around from level-off or flare. That's the answer.

Retract to 20 immediately, then milk the rest off with positive rate of climb.

Your procedure will never get past step #2 on a hot day.

If there is a long runway, #0 is pull the power and land the damn thing.
 
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