dtuuri
Final Approach
I supported the assertion.39 posts in, and nothing has been added to this thread that supports your assertion that pivotal altitude contributes in any meaningful way to spin avoidance.
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I supported the assertion.39 posts in, and nothing has been added to this thread that supports your assertion that pivotal altitude contributes in any meaningful way to spin avoidance.
Pivotal altitude has nothing to do with skidding a turn, except when performing pylon 8s.I supported the assertion.If you skid a pylon, you could bust. If you skid a turn, you could die.
Says you.Pivotal altitude has nothing to do with skidding a turn, except when performing pylon 8s.
Says physics. But if you can explain just how it is that pivotal altitude contributes in any meaningful way to spin avoidance I'm definitely interested.Says you.
Important - of great significance or value; likely to have a profound effect on success, survival, or well-being.First, would you be willing to clarify the difference between "important concept" vs. the actual maneuver and pivotal altitude? Secondly, how, precisely, does mastery of the maneuver translate to emergencies and circling approaches?
I have a good memory of how hard it was to keep from skidding the wing into position back when I worked on my commercial license. It took enormous restraint and self-discipline, an awareness I often forced myself to invoke in subsequent years when making turns low to the ground under the effect of a strong wind. The temptation to inappropriately use rudder is stronger during on-pylons than any other maneuver I can recall. I think the OP and author he cited are making that point too, so that's at least three of us.Says physics. But if you can explain just how it is that pivotal altitude contributes in any meaningful way to spin avoidance I'm definitely interested.
If you understand the importance of an emergency or circle to land maneuver, understand the concept of a stabilized approach by practicing them, you will be able to perform circle to land and emergencies more precisely.if you understand the importance of an emergency or circle to land maneuver, understand concept of pivotal altitude by practicing the 8s on maneuver, you will be able to perform circle to land and emergencies more precisely.
You had previously posted, "I agree PA is an important concept for emergencies and maybe IFR circle to land. Rectangular traffic patterns not so much." In this sentence, you characterized PA (I assume you meant pivotal altitude) as an important concept. I merely wanted clarification of your intent with regard to emergencies and circling approaches. Your reply didn't answer my question, but thank you for providing definitions of terms that were not a matter of contention. Seems like lot of extra trouble merely for the appearance of being argumentative.Important - of great significance or value; likely to have a profound effect on success, survival, or well-being.
Concept - a principle or idea.
VS
Maneuver - movement or series of moves requiring skill and care.
Pivotal Altitude - altitude at which, for a given groundspeed, the projection of an imaginary visual reference line to a single point on the ground appears to pivot
Precisely - in exact terms; without vagueness.
Okay, I'll bite: In what type of emergency maneuver does pivotal altitude come into play? As for circling approaches...pure nonsense; or can you tell me how you would fly a circle-to-land approach by calculating and maintaining pivotal altitude while maneuvering to land?if you understand the importance of an emergency or circle to land maneuver, understand concept of pivotal altitude by practicing the 8s on maneuver, you will be able to perform circle to land and emergencies more precisely. Hope that helps.
Maybe the issue here is a matter of differentiating between the maneuver, 8s-on-pylons, and a component of the maneuver, pivotal altitude. I contend that they are two different things. As I stated in post #40, 8s-on-pylons are one way to practice "controlling the aircraft in all three axes simultaneously while dividing our attention between inside and outside references..." which could indeed be helpful in learning the proper use of controls including the rudder. I went on to say "calculating a pivotal altitude is necessary to make the maneuver work as intended." If we seek to perfect our use of flight controls, then pylon 8s (my preferred term) are a good way to hone those skills. But pivotal altitude is not applicable to anything other than the proper execution of this maneuver. So if you wish to argue that the pylon-8 maneuver was helpful in learning to avoid improper use of the rudder, that makes perfect sense. If you were to continue to assert that proper use of rudder reduces the chance of a low-altitude stall/spin, then I'm in complete agreement. If you then connect the maneuver, pylon 8s, to a reduced chance of auguring-in, I think that's a valid cause/effect relationship. My point is that pivotal altitude itself has nothing to do with avoiding stall/spin accidents and has no meaningful application in the real world.I have a good memory of how hard it was to keep from skidding the wing into position back when I worked on my commercial license. It took enormous restraint and self-discipline, an awareness I often forced myself to invoke in subsequent years when making turns low to the ground under the effect of a strong wind. The temptation to inappropriately use rudder is stronger during on-pylons than any other maneuver I can recall. I think the OP and author he cited are making that point too, so that's at least three of us.
So you believe the only way one can recognize they are at PA is math? On an emergency approach to landing or a circle to land, the pilot recognizing PA can hold a point and descend without increasing bank / G loading as the ground speed changes with the effect of the wind,You had previously posted, "I agree PA is an important concept for emergencies and maybe IFR circle to land. Rectangular traffic patterns not so much." In this sentence, you characterized PA (I assume you meant pivotal altitude) as an important concept. I merely wanted clarification of your intent with regard to emergencies and circling approaches. Your reply didn't answer my question, but thank you for providing definitions of terms that were not a matter of contention. Seems like lot of extra trouble merely for the appearance of being argumentative.
Okay, I'll bite: In what type of emergency maneuver does pivotal altitude come into play? As for circling approaches...pure nonsense; or can you tell me how you would fly a circle-to-land approach by calculating and maintaining pivotal altitude while maneuvering to land?
So which emergency has you holding a point on your wingtip and climbing and descending to keep it there? And why is climbing and descending to maintain a point on your wingtip a valid technique for circling to land?So you believe the only way one can recognize they are at PA is math? On an emergency approach to landing or a circle to land, the pilot recognizing PA can hold a point and descend without increasing bank / G loading as the ground speed changes with the effect of the wind,
Usually I'm the one who is unclear on the concept. This time, however...So you believe the only way one can recognize they are at PA is math? On an emergency approach to landing or a circle to land, the pilot recognizing PA can hold a point and descend without increasing bank / G loading as the ground speed changes with the effect of the wind,
Depends. One time I wanted to study the area around my house as I returned from a trip, deadhead. I had my copilot figure the pivotal altitude, around 3000' MSL, IIRC, so I could circle without looking inside at all. I thus avoided a stall/spin.My point is that pivotal altitude itself has nothing to do with avoiding stall/spin accidents and has no meaningful application in the real world.
I respect your opinion as an experienced DPE, Ryan, but I'm still not convinced that the 8's on pylons are anything but a made-up exercise in order to have something new to do and learn for the Commercial.Just my personal opinion: the correlative connection between, specifically, pivotal altitude and stall-spin awareness as presented is interesting, but a tad tenuous. That said, it sparked discussion and that is always good. To the point, any enhancement in aeronautical knowledge, and the application of that knowledge (pivotal altitude) when demonstrating smoothness and precision in aircraft control can only be of benefit to safety.
Eights-on-pylons are a ground reference manuever, and per the Airplane Flying Handbook, "... ground reference maneuvers train the pilot to accurately place the airplane in relationship to specific references and maintain a desired ground track." The AFH goes on to describe Eights-on-pylons as "the most advanced and difficult" of the ground reference manuevers and state they are "unmatched for developing intuitive control of the airplane." That sounds about right to me.
The key phrase from the AFH is on p. 7-15: "This develops the pilot’s ability to maneuver the airplane accurately while dividing attention between the flightpath and the selected pylons on the ground." That is the critical skill which is honed from properly learning this maneuver.
In short, a well-flown Eights-on-Pylon task requires division of attention, and an intuitive sense of the aircraft's coordination. These skills are certainly called upon in the traffic pattern as well, such as scanning for traffic while maintaining awareness of AOA/airspeed, aircraft configuration, coordination, etc. especially while turning.
So is there a connection between properly taught, satisfactorily demonstrated Eights-On-Pylons and pilot skills which could help prevent a low altitude stall-spin? Absolutely. Carry on!
Correlation is not causation. It wouldn't have mattered how you flew the maneuver, so long as you didn't stall you would have avoided a stall/spin.Depends. One time I wanted to study the area around my house as I returned from a trip, deadhead. I had my copilot figure the pivotal altitude, around 3000' MSL, IIRC, so I could circle without looking inside at all. I thus avoided a stall/spin.
Sounds similar to what had been said in a previous post: "8s-on-pylons merely provide a more challenging maneuver to practice and demonstrate proficiency in controlling the aircraft in all three axes simultaneously while dividing our attention between inside and outside references."Just my personal opinion: the correlative connection between, specifically, pivotal altitude and stall-spin awareness as presented is interesting, but a tad tenuous. That said, it sparked discussion and that is always good. To the point, any enhancement in aeronautical knowledge, and the application of that knowledge (pivotal altitude) when demonstrating smoothness and precision in aircraft control can only be of benefit to safety.
Eights-on-pylons are a ground reference manuever, and per the Airplane Flying Handbook, "... ground reference maneuvers train the pilot to accurately place the airplane in relationship to specific references and maintain a desired ground track." The AFH goes on to describe Eights-on-pylons as "the most advanced and difficult" of the ground reference manuevers and state they are "unmatched for developing intuitive control of the airplane." That sounds about right to me.
The key phrase from the AFH is on p. 7-15: "This develops the pilot’s ability to maneuver the airplane accurately while dividing attention between the flightpath and the selected pylons on the ground." That is the critical skill which is honed from properly learning this maneuver.
In short, a well-flown Eights-on-Pylon task requires division of attention, and an intuitive sense of the aircraft's coordination. These skills are certainly called upon in the traffic pattern as well, such as scanning for traffic while maintaining awareness of AOA/airspeed, aircraft configuration, coordination, etc. especially while turning.
So is there a connection between properly taught, satisfactorily demonstrated Eights-On-Pylons and pilot skills which could help prevent a low altitude stall-spin? Absolutely. Carry on!
Appreciate the viewpoint as always.Russ,
I don't have any interest (or ability) to get into the history of the task, or why/how it was developed. I can only say that from my little corner of the airman certification world, the task has its place and it holds plenty enough value to warrant its inclusion in the ACS. Though it may seem simple to you as an accomplished instructor, I've watched more than a few applicants struggle with the task. Of course, I've seen others demonstrate a high level of skill. In my experience the applicants that struggle tend to already have a difficult time dividing attention or multi-tasking in general. For example, working a navlog, computing a T/S/D while hand flying, that sort of thing. Skills a commercial pilot needs to have.
This may be the sort of observation that's borne of the unique perspective of watching many individuals demonstrate the task as part of a checking event, rather than being part of the instructional path. I haven't taught commercial maneuvers in years.
The ACS treats the Eights-on-Pylons with extra care. Per Appendix 7: Aircraft, Equipment, and Operational Requirements & Limitations:
For initial commercial applicants seeking an ASEL or ASES rating, the evaluator must choose:• Task A, Steep Turns, or Task B, Steep Spiral;• Task C, Chandelles, or Task D, Lazy Eights; and• Task E, Eights on Pylons.Of all the maneuvers contained within AOA V., Task E is the one the applicant must demonstrate regardless of evaluator preference.
Not that it's the subject of discussion anyway, since this task isn't going anywhere, but I think it serves a useful role in a pilot's development. Perhaps one could argue there's a better manuever for that job... in the fertile imagination of an active flight instructor, somewhere, ready to submit the idea to the FAA and its industry stakeholders.In the meantime, Eights on Pylons will have to do.
Thanks for a great discussion!
I'm interested in why you think that watching the wing during a turn has any relation to being coordinated. That's what the ball, and your butt, are for. I also don't know why you infer that if I (and therefore my students) am not watching the wing, I (and they) therefore may not be watching the ball. I just don't see any relation between the two.
I have thousands of hours operating at low altitudes working as an ag pilot. The end of every pass was a low level ground reference maneuver. I never noticed diddly squat about the relative motion of objects on the ground in reference to my wing tip. This claim of importance feels like a solution looking for a problem.Same ratings, instructional experience and opinion. I have also questioned (on this forum) about how in a slower airplane it's probably not even strictly legal due to the low altitude. But it seemed few others shared my view on that, oh well.
I don't really buy the "teaching this helps reduce base-to-final stall/spin accidents". Maybe it's just me, but I'm not typically looking at my wingtip when I'm turning final. I honestly have never noticed whether, on this turn to final, an object is falling behind my wingtip or moving ahead. Why would I? That doesn't makes any difference, and there are far more important things to be doing at the time.
Lazy eights aren't under discussion, just sayin'...I have thousands of hours operating at low altitudes working as an ag pilot. The end of every pass was a low level ground reference maneuver. I never noticed diddly squat about the relative motion of objects on the ground in reference to my wing tip. I have always been of the opinion that the lazy eights were just a hoop to jump through on the way to earning a pay check. This claim of importance feels like a solution looking for a problem.
I edited my post to remove the lazy eight. I mistyped. Thanks for pointing it out so I could edit for clarity but it doesn’t change my position.Lazy eights aren't under discussion, just sayin'...
Search and rescue at sea.....or…photography.