Piper drops PiperSport

Piper and Czech Sport not compatible? Why didn't the figure this out before they started selling them? I hope they support the planes they already sold. This can't help the resale.
 
There's 2 in Colorado, that I know of. I've flown in one, and know the owner of the other.

As for dropping the product line, I'm not surprised. The economy stinks, there are a number of LSA kits, and a great deal of competition. I'll be really surprised if Cessna can continue with the SkyCatcher too. But Cessna's got deeper pockets. But if Piper want to push on with the jet, something has to give.
 
One over at KADS (Addison)

Talked with a few folks who have taken up. All had good things to say about it.
 
That's too bad. Probably the only LSA I'd be willing to buy right now.
 
(Xpost from AOPA)
Something had to happen. I believe there are well over 50 models/brands out there. I'm sort of surprised Piper got out so fast. The Piper name added some confidence to the plane for several folks I talked to.
 
murphey said:
I'll be really surprised if Cessna can continue with the SkyCatcher too.
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As far as I see it, C-162 is explicitly targeted for trainer market and neatly slots where 152 used to sit. Basically any school that wants new Cessna for primary training would buy it. This is why the dry mass is so high and useful load is so low on C-162, compared to CT LS and Remos (CT MC is in the same class). What can sink the Skycatcher is not exactly what affects LSAs purchased by the general public, but rather business pressures: glut of cheap 172s for example. My own school accepted a 172 in a leaseback agreement last October or so. Sure, 162 is cheaper to operate, but then you don't have to amortize the purchase price or worry about maintenance on a leaseback.

I wish to know what the real issue was though. So far nobody's saying.
 
What happened is probably the REVERSE of what Piper's announcement says: so few were sold, that the factory thought they could do better.
 
murphey said:
There's 2 in Colorado, that I know of. I've flown in one, and know the owner of the other.

As for dropping the product line, I'm not surprised. The economy stinks, there are a number of LSA kits, and a great deal of competition. I'll be really surprised if Cessna can continue with the SkyCatcher too. But Cessna's got deeper pockets. But if Piper want to push on with the jet, something has to give.
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You can not compare a distributor (piper) to a company who spent all the money in R&D like Cessna. If anything this will help the skycatcher.
 
There was one at KGXY this weekend when we were there. Murph, was that one of our group?
 
gkainz said:
There was one at KGXY this weekend when we were there. Murph, was that one of our group?
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I don't remember a Piper just a Jabiru. :D

Seriously not part of our group. I remember three ultralights but no other LSA.
 
He was parked against the restaurant row west of us as I was leaving... almost behind the Frankenkota.
 
Yep, there was a PiperSport there.

That person now owns a rare piece of aviation history. :D
 
ejensen said:
I remember three ultralights but no other LSA.
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Most likely those "Ultralights" were registered as E-LSA's, there are very few true Ultralights anymore, and "fat Ultralights" had to be re-registered as E-LSA's. I used to have a single seat Challenger CWS (E-LSA) and everyone called it an Ultralight, there was no way it would come close to fitting in the Ultralight category. Most people are ignorant when it comes to the experimental category of airplanes and what it take to be a true Ultralight.

My Challenger CWS was faster than any J3 Cub, Luscombe, Champ and most other older airplanes that fall into the LSA category.
 
I have 30 or 40 hours in the sportcruiser and I will say I thought it was a very nice plane. Like all LSA models it has a issue with higher winds but that is a trade off of weight vs stability. It's mostly a issue of cost. For what you would pay for a sportcruiser you can get a very nice 182 with modern avionics. Yes the fuel burn is more but I think the capabilities make it worth it.
 
Dean said:
Most likely those "Ultralights" were registered as E-LSA's, there are very few true Ultralights anymore, and "fat Ultralights" had to be re-registered as E-LSA's. I used to have a single seat Challenger CWS (E-LSA) and everyone called it an Ultralight, there was no way it would come close to fitting in the Ultralight category. Most people are ignorant when it comes to the experimental category of airplanes and what it take to be a true Ultralight.

My Challenger CWS was faster than any J3 Cub, Luscombe, Champ and most other older airplanes that fall into the LSA category.
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Yeah, one of them might have been a 'real' ultralight but the other two were definately of the fat variety (one was a 2 seat 'trainer'). All were open (mostly) cockpit trikes.
 
ejensen said:
(Xpost from AOPA)
Something had to happen. I believe there are well over 50 models/brands out there.
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50! Starting to sound like the late 1940s when there were so many aircraft manufacturers trying to cash in on the postwar interest in aviation. Very few survived. the same thing happened in the early '70s with the snowmobile craze; there were dozens of sled makers.

Dan
 
I have flown a number of times in the sport cruiser that Dave Taylor and my friend has out here. He bought it when it was sold by Czech as a sport cruiser. It's very nice indeed. Has an autopilot, glass panel and various other gizmos that he has put in it. And he has landed it in some pretty stiff wind out here too.

Well, if the Czech aircraft company goes back to just making and selling them then I guess they will still be available for future ownership. They are pretty pricey in my opinion - 130K?

Too bad that the LSA category couldn't have just included C 152s but no....
 
Strange.

They're pushing the Warrior and Archer again, too.

They rebuilt the Altaire completely - it's an entirely new plane from the PiperJet.

If I were them I'd spend more time trying to figure out how to increase the payload of the Meridian.
 
I honestly doubt the Jet is going to get anywhere. Seems that ship has sailed. Then again, presumably they have smarter guys than me looking at these things. Then again, lots of theses guys go out of business. Piper itself already did.
 
ejensen said:
(Xpost from AOPA)
Something had to happen. I believe there are well over 50 models/brands out there. I'm sort of surprised Piper got out so fast. The Piper name added some confidence to the plane for several folks I talked to.
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50? There are over *100* models of LSA's available... And even the best-selling (which I think is the Flight Design CT/LS) still hasn't sold a whole lot - Well under 1000. Cessna has way more orders than that on the books for the Skycatcher, though.

I'm somewhat disappointed in this development, I think the SportCruiser is one of the better LSA's out there, and the Piper name did lend it both legitimacy and confidence. I actually thought that Cirrus was going to go with the SportCruiser when they first announced they were going to sell an LSA developed with someone else.

It would have been really nice if Cessna, Cirrus, and Piper *all* had LSA's available... Maybe Diamond will crank one out one of these years - Though their HK36 motorglider is something that could make sense for a lot of potential LSA buyers as well - I hope they add about 5 inches of headroom to it before I'm old enough to need one, though...
 
ejensen said:
I'd heard that from Remos folks but well over 50 seems safer statement for the web.:)
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I heard it from the president of LAMA. He was keeping pretty close track, for obvious reasons. ;)

It will be interesting to see what is around 5 or even 10 years from now.
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Betcha it won't be a whole heckuva lot. And there are going to be a lot of people losing a lot of money in the shakedown too.
 
flyingcheesehead said:
I heard it from the president of LAMA. He was keeping pretty close track, for obvious reasons. ;)



Betcha it won't be a whole heckuva lot. And there are going to be a lot of people losing a lot of money in the shakedown too.
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That's got to be a given. My converation was with COO of Remos. Hope Jabiru survives :sad:
 
flyingcheesehead said:
50? There are over *100* models of LSA's available... And even the best-selling (which I think is the Flight Design CT/LS) still hasn't sold a whole lot - Well under 1000. Cessna has way more orders than that on the books for the Skycatcher, though.
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They have 1000 orders or more, yet how many of those will be cancelled when the money comes due? I'd bet on a large number of those orders are speculators, and they'll soon realize that they can't sell their order number for a premium, and then bail.
 
ejensen said:
That's got to be a given. My converation was with COO of Remos. Hope Jabiru survives :sad:
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Since Jabiru is technically in at least two lines of business, airplanes and aircraft engines, and has been around for about 20 years, I assume they have a better chance than most of surviving.

What model Jabiru do you fly?
 
KSCessnaDriver said:
They have 1000 orders or more, yet how many of those will be cancelled when the money comes due? I'd bet on a large number of those orders are speculators, and they'll soon realize that they can't sell their order number for a premium, and then bail.
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I think it's significantly more than that. IIRC, the first day they started taking deposits at Oshkosh, they had over 2000 people write a check, and it was close to 3000 by the end of the week. I don't think it was 2/3 speculators...

Of course, that was even before the announcement that they were going to be made in China, so who knows how many people will bail. Er, are bailing. How many have they shipped so far?
 
First Cirrus drops a "borrowed" LSA.

Now Piper.

Once is an accident. Twice is a coincidence......
 
flyingcheesehead said:
Of course, that was even before the announcement that they were going to be made in China, so who knows how many people will bail. Er, are bailing. How many have they shipped so far?
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At the end of 2010 they produced 50 (although I'm not sure how many passed pre-sale in Kansas, 50 may be the number of complete airplanes rolled out of the factory in China), and delivered 30 to customers. This does not quite dwarf the rest of the field, but sure is more than VVV-Avia sold :-)

P.S. I found it surprising that they did not hike the price from $112K. With everyone else reaching for $125k, $130k, this suddenly makes C-162 look affordable. Imagine that.

UPDATE: here's a link to By Dan Johnson which is, miracle of miracles, open to reading by everyone without a subscription:
http://www.bydanjohnson.com/index.cfm?b=1&m=5&i=35
According to Dan, total S-LSA 1914, of which CTLS sold 320 units (16.7%), Cessna 31 (1.6%). These numbers are grand totals apparently, so with only 218 new registrations in the year, Cessna's 31 and Piper's 43 together look like dominance.
 
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Jim Logajan said:
Since Jabiru is technically in at least two lines of business, airplanes and aircraft engines, and has been around for about 20 years, I assume they have a better chance than most of surviving.

What model Jabiru do you fly?
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That and their presence in around the world make me think so too.

I have a J230-SP.
 
ejensen said:
I have a J230-SP.
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How does that fly compared to the J170? I flew a J170 once that was a blast to fly. Really easy to land, unlike some of the other LSA's out there (CTSW specifically).
 
KSCessnaDriver said:
How does that fly compared to the J170? I flew a J170 once that was a blast to fly. Really easy to land, unlike some of the other LSA's out there (CTSW specifically).
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I've never flown a 170 but a couple of folks at Jabiru USA said with a 3300 engine it was their favorite 'fun' plane. The 230 is longer is supposed to have more rudder and elevator authority. Higher wing loading than the 250, 12.5 vs 11.0. This is the only LSA I've flown. I don't find it hard to land. Easier to overcontrol than my Mooney F.
 
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