Pilot shortage must be real...

Well let's see... I spent $12-13k on my PPL at 42.3 hours in Southern California. To get to my 250 hours for commercial in a 172 at $150/hr would be another what.... 32-35k? Then from 250-1500 hrs, what do I do? And then get picked up by some regional at 1500 hours for less than minimum wage?

OR stick with my current gig which is 55-60k a year plus pension, deferred comp, and benefits. I would LOVE to fly. I can't afford to be in debt and broke for an indefinite period of time.

I think that's why its a young mans game. No bills, hopefully no wife, easy moving in a duffle bag or stuffed Saturn SC...... Once you have a "life", the dynamic is totally changed.
 
You set yourself up perfectly for your second career!

It was really dumb luck. More dumb than luck. But I do believe Someone was looking out for me, because it worked out perfectly, despite having no plan!
 
I think that's why its a young mans game. No bills, hopefully no wife, easy moving in a duffle bag or stuffed Saturn SC...... Once you have a "life", the dynamic is totally changed.

That's certainly the majority. But in my new-hire class there were at least half a dozen of us 50+ people pursuing a second career. One guy had bought himself a cheap old Mooney (M20C) and pursued all his ratings in it. Went from nothing to 1,500 hours part time over five years or so while working his other career.

Another was an engineer that just gradually accumulated his ratings and loved flight instructing. He had no goal of 121, but found himself with the requisite time at the point the regionals were aggressively hiring. I had lunch with him in SFO ten days ago and he's having as much fun as I am.

Most of us have working spouses that helped make it possible. There are certainly lots of variables.
 
No argument there. And no one is saying it makes economic sense to pursue it using traditional training scenarios. It's only working for those who've ended up having the requisite time via their prior bad decision-making! :D
You set yourself up perfectly for your second career!

I don't know if it'll be a second career, but I'm in a wildly different boat than many with the house and cars paid for, no kids to put through college, and a lingering idea that even if I have no current desire to go to the airlines (but do have "shiny jet syndrome, what pilot doesn't???! GRIN), that it may be time to figure out an exit strategy from IT... whether that's knocking back to part-time, or just leaving altogether for a year or so... just to go pile on some ratings. The industry is sucking up CFIs into the airlines, and they're looking for folks who can teach and stick around a while, which might fit well for where I'm "at" these days.

Tax season always brings out the spreadsheet twiddling for me, and so this weekend Karen and I did some twiddling (she likes paper, I like spreadsheets... ha... so we compared her paper to my spreadsheet after we worked them up separately) doing a "worst case analysis" of, "You quit your IT job tomorrow..." The freaky part was, it didn't come out that bad... in fact, we both calculated it at CURRENT expenses, which have things in there that we wouldn't need to do because they're driven by me being gone lots of time, and... well, the list is boring.

But the point is... some of that stuff naturally disappears if I were to quit, and we left it IN the budgets we did... and the budget actually squeaks by and works. With that stuff "gone" it easily works. (Helps that Karen just popped back up to Director level at her job, AND got a small raise, and is truly in the specialty she loves and it shows no signs of slowing down... she's a wound care nurse, and if there's one thing humans seem to do well, is injure themselves! GRIN...)

So "economic sense" @LDJones ? Not a lick of it... OTHER than plowing through ratings without idle time in there to have to forget/re-do things, wouldn't happen. Personally, from the traditional fiscal sense, it would be an fiscal disaster of epic proportions for stuff like retirement and savings... but... a SURVIVABLE one as far as only a true "emergency" would ding into any investments we have. And what the heck have I been saving all these years for, if not to have options?

I should start a more detailed "Talk me out of this stupidity..." thread... but I haven't officially talked to anyone at work about making any sort of change. (Hell, nowadays they can probably find this thread if they even look for ten seconds, so maybe they'll find it, get "offended" I'm courting another suitor, and toss my butt to the street! Hahaha... doubt it, but hey, anything is possible... there's at least one other pilot at work who's not active here, but knows I like the place...)

I've thought about doing it the slow way... trying to cram things in nights and weekends, but the commute is just too far to the office plus doing that, and the hours of IT are just too ridiculous when big projects hit.

So it may just be "time" to go do it...

Interestingly THAT wasn't the hard decision to make... nor was it hard to do the math to decide if we'd starve to death (kinda already knew we wouldn't... haha...), the hard decision is picking an actual DATE to walk in and say, "I need to make a change and here's what I want to go do... if you guys want me here part time, great. If you don't want me here part-time, also fine. Want me as a consultant to do specific projects, also good. Want to toss my butt on the street right now, cool with that too."

I don't think from their perspective there's ever a good time for that conversation (always something going on, it never ends) and from my perspective I will probably drag it out a while for no good reason.

On a scale of "taking a year off" a additional month or two of paychecks in the bank, doesn't amount to a hill of beans... for our situation anyway. I know that's not normal for a lot of folks. And I'm still the old school type who keeps thinking to myself, "Ok maybe quit at end of April after we know exactly what happens on taxes... or end of May right as flying weather gets nice... or June... right before Oshkosh and use up all the vacation time left between now and then to do something..." Hahaha... excuses excuses.

There's other stuff I "need" to get done if I do this, also... some home projects, and some personal trips... that I just can't squeeze into the current paid vacation time, and I haven't really asked about unpaid vacation time or a significant amount of leave, but I don't get the impression it would go over too well with a couple of the personalities. Can't ever say for sure until you ask... but I doubt it.

Busting your butt for 20+ years at various jobs (sometimes three) to make sure the bills are paid plus more, sure does build up some interesting fears in your head about just walking out of a job. I don't think I've ever done that for a reason other than going to a better job, or the one time I got fired... and that firing led to everyone above me except a Director getting fired for doing it... so it was wrong. CTO was pretty ticked... but that's a story for another day.

Maybe I'll go start that thread... it's really weird to have an argument with yourself about whether you should walk into the office and "start the process of quitting" for no good reason other than "I have other things I want to go do"... it's downright weird to me... doesn't mesh well with 20+ years of "doing whatever I had to do...". Ha...
 
Personally I think it's nuts to lay out $75K to get your flying with most 141 programs. I think the smarter way is the way one of my students went. He joined a flying club, got his license, then flew to build time towards his commercial, then immediately got a gig flying parachute jumpers weekends, then a gig flying pipeline patrol. Within two years of setting his mind to it he was at my regional, two months behind me. Just bumped into him at the airport last week and he's having as much fun as me, and still doing his software development gig to maintain his life style.

Yar. I've got to build towards commercial. Just expensive to do that in SoCal. The club prices are about what my school rents the planes for... except the planes my school rents are far and above better maintained and equipped than the club planes that are only like 8 bucks an hour cheaper.

Also LoL'd at your "bad decision" comment. Ain't that the truth. 6 months after starting my private I looked at the tattered remains of my finances and I was like... how do people do this all the way to 1500? I can't even see the youngins shelling out that kind of cash... especially not at the 141's.
 
By the way, you should have seen my co-owner's eyeballs pop out when I joked after telling him that I might be pursuing ratings that if I *also* felt a need to pile on hours, that I could do it RELATIVELY cheaply in our 182 (there's better options for slow time building... but I certainly have some trips I'd like to take in the old girl...) that I would TIME THE ENGINE OUT DOING IT!

Hahahahaha... yeah... I don't think I'll be doing that... but it's one way to find out how long she'll make it past TBO! LOL...
 
Yar. I've got to build towards commercial. Just expensive to do that in SoCal. The club prices are about what my school rents the planes for... except the planes my school rents are far and above better maintained and equipped than the club planes that are only like 8 bucks an hour cheaper.

Also LoL'd at your "bad decision" comment. Ain't that the truth. 6 months after starting my private I looked at the tattered remains of my finances and I was like... how do people do this all the way to 1500? I can't even see the youngins shelling out that kind of cash... especially not at the 141's.
You're not paying for all 1500 hours.
 
If I ever end up working in aviation I will have ended up paying for all 1500 and then some.
I have no idea where I'll be in the next 5-10 with my aviation career. I'd like to be at a Legacy before I'm 30. Maybe I won't like the airlines and I'll try corporate. I know I can't see myself doing anything but fly for a living.
 
I guess there's that. After 250, hopefully some of the rest gets picked up on someone else's tab.
Exactly. The day after I got my Commercial ticket I got a job flying an aerial photographer. Got my CFI with 280 hours and have been working towards 1500. I got my CFI last April and in 2 months I'll be heading out to MSP for airline training. Network, look for opportunities, and work hard and in due time the rest will come.
 
I also paid for very little of my fixed wing time since I did mapping and a bit of flight instruction. In fact I stayed with mapping way past the time that others would have moved on.

I did pay for my private and commercial helicopter ratings but I was making OK money by then with few expenses. They didn't help me career-wise but it was fun.
 
I guess there's that. After 250, hopefully some of the rest gets picked up on someone else's tab.

Yep, after 250 a big chunk of my hours were paid for by others, or at least were a write-off for my various businesses. I had just shy of 4,000 hours when I applied to the regional, with about 1,700 dual given. There was other commercial flying in the non-dual-given hours, as well. But I probably shelled out for well over 1,000 of my own for personal and business travel reasons, every one of them well worth the money invested.

With the shortage of CFIs one could quickly have others paying for your flying shortly after the 250 hour mark.
 
That's actually my goal. Once I get up there.... eventually... CFI for a while. Might just stay there, really. I like teaching, and flexible part time works. I like my current line of work, but I love flying. Unless I go to fling wings (which mentally I can't compute the costs of right now), I can't combine the two.
 
I still fail to see the allure of flying for the regionals - majors? Sure. I'd do that in a heartbeat, but making ramen noodle money to sleep in a crappy hotel in a crappy city with a crappy schedule doesn't sound all that great to me.

Instead I fly little planes for decent paychecks with all the benefits of working for an airline, and a schedule that would only come with a whole bunch of seniority at an airline.

Also, we're hiring.
 
I still fail to see the allure of flying for the regionals - majors? Sure. I'd do that in a heartbeat, but making ramen noodle money to sleep in a crappy hotel in a crappy city with a crappy schedule doesn't sound all that great to me.

Instead I fly little planes for decent paychecks with all the benefits of working for an airline, and a schedule that would only come with a whole bunch of seniority at an airline.

Also, we're hiring.

Sounds good. See you in 10 years when I'm eligible.
 
Well let's see... I spent $12-13k on my PPL at 42.3 hours in Southern California. To get to my 250 hours for commercial in a 172 at $150/hr would be another what.... 32-35k? Then from 250-1500 hrs, what do I do? And then get picked up by some regional at 1500 hours for less than minimum wage?

OR stick with my current gig which is 55-60k a year plus pension, deferred comp, and benefits. I would LOVE to fly. I can't afford to be in debt and broke for an indefinite period of time.

This is exactly the situation I find myself in. I'd love to jump into flying but the costs associated are absurd. If it was like the old time where you did not need the 1500 hours I'd strongly consider it. But having to earn 30,000 dollars a year tops for the next few years to get to 1500 is taking a huge pay cut for me.
 
I still fail to see the allure of flying for the regionals - majors? Sure. I'd do that in a heartbeat, but making ramen noodle money to sleep in a crappy hotel in a crappy city with a crappy schedule doesn't sound all that great to me.

Instead I fly little planes for decent paychecks with all the benefits of working for an airline, and a schedule that would only come with a whole bunch of seniority at an airline.

Also, we're hiring.
50K first year. Minimum of 11 days off. 75 hours gaurenteed pay. 150% pay for over 75 hours. Airline benefits for spouse, kids, parents, 401K, and paid ATP CTP ain't bad. I don't think anyone in Alaska in paying for the CTP which is a huge benefit down the road.
 
50K first year. Minimum of 11 days off. 75 hours gaurenteed pay. 150% pay for over 75 hours. Airline benefits for spouse, kids, parents, 401K, and paid ATP CTP ain't bad. I don't think anyone in Alaska in paying for the CTP which is a huge benefit down the road.

Which regional is paying 50k first year?
 
Plenty of young folks are interested in aviation, it's just not your Prius driving types. The kids who are into dirt bikes, sky diving, hunting, mechanical things, those guys seem to jump at aviation, the biggest draw back is the price.

Plenty of kids are interested in aviation. But they don't want to make 3rd world wages in a job that requires a significant amount of training.
 
Maybe I'll go start that thread... it's really weird to have an argument with yourself about whether you should walk into the office and "start the process of quitting" for no good reason other than "I have other things I want to go do"... it's downright weird to me... doesn't mesh well with 20+ years of "doing whatever I had to do...". Ha...

I have been having this "discussion" with myself for about the past year or so. My wife chimes in every once in a while, too, so that is definitely making an impact!

Abram Finkelstein
N48KY
 
50K is ok for a 20 something YO. My son is starting out in IT doing that....with no experience or college debt. I suspect he will climb in pay rather quickly in the next 10 years.

Wonder if he'll make $200K in ten years? lol :D
 
Plenty of kids are interested in aviation. But they don't want to make 3rd world wages in a job that requires a significant amount of training.

Hogwash, plenty of kids still spend $$, or their parents or banks $$, for theatre, art, English, history, physc (BA only), etc degrees.


Also you can make a nice living flying, it's just not as easy as other professions.
 
Hogwash, plenty of kids still spend $$, or their parents or banks $$, for theatre, art, English, history, physc (BA only), etc degrees.

But you can smoke pot and do other drugs without the worry of losing your job in most of those areas. In fact in some of them, it's probably encouraged.

"I can't smoke pot? I'm not going to go into aviation!"
 
But you can smoke pot and do other drugs without the worry of losing your job in most of those areas. In fact in some of them, it's probably encouraged.

If you'd like to fly and do those things, just stick to Part 91. My buddy flies a Challenger and smokes more pot than anyone I know. ;)
 
If you'd like to fly and do those things, just stick to Part 91. My buddy flies a Challenger and smokes more pot than anyone I know. ;)

I guess he ignores a few questions on the medical then. :)
 
But you can smoke pot and do other drugs without the worry of losing your job in most of those areas. In fact in some of them, it's probably encouraged.

"I can't smoke pot? I'm not going to go into aviation!"

You might be Henning.
 
But you can smoke pot and do other drugs without the worry of losing your job in most of those areas. In fact in some of them, it's probably encouraged.

"I can't smoke pot? I'm not going to go into aviation!"

Puritans of America?
 
50K first year. Minimum of 11 days off. 75 hours gaurenteed pay. 150% pay for over 75 hours. Airline benefits for spouse, kids, parents, 401K, and paid ATP CTP ain't bad. I don't think anyone in Alaska in paying for the CTP which is a huge benefit down the road.

That's actually considerably better than I thought it was.
 
What are the chances of a "Comair" in a few years and getting laid off? I've read after that deal there were hundreds out of a job and had problems getting rehired into other regionals.:(
 
What are the chances of a "Comair" in a few years and getting laid off? I've read after that deal there were hundreds out of a job and had problems getting rehired into other regionals.:(

Any regional today could get "Comaired" as you put it. I think the safest regional, in terms of NOT being 'comaired', are SkyWest, Envoy (owned by American I believe), and Endeavor, owned by Delta), my opinion only. My old airline, ASA/Expressjet, is shrinking already along with the old ExpressJet side, even though SkyWest Inc owns them. All the new jets are going to SkyWest.
 
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Well let's see... I spent $12-13k on my PPL at 42.3 hours in Southern California. To get to my 250 hours for commercial in a 172 at $150/hr would be another what.... 32-35k? Then from 250-1500 hrs, what do I do? And then get picked up by some regional at 1500 hours for less than minimum wage?

OR stick with my current gig which is 55-60k a year plus pension, deferred comp, and benefits. I would LOVE to fly. I can't afford to be in debt and broke for an indefinite period of time.

I've grappled with that issue in the past myself. I started flying with the intention of making a career of it, then stopped flying after my instrument rating when I realized I was still at least $25K from being able to legally earn a paycheck, at a time when there were really no jobs to be found.

I went to work in another industry (law enforcement), figuring I'd come back to flying when things improved in the industry, and when I felt that I could better handle the $25K in expenses I figured it would take to get my commercial, multi-engine, and CFI ratings.

But, during the interim I went from making $35K as an entry level guy in my job, to a pay that is now substantially higher. I'm not rich, and never will be, but my salary at the moment is healthy enough that it's really hard to think of going back to the bottom again for so long (I could handle it for a year or two, but it seems more like five to ten). If I stay where I am now, I can take a 70% pension in 19 years, and I currently take about nine weeks of vacation each year.

I love flying, but the opportunity cost to make a full-time career of it seems really high right now.
 
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