Piaggio Avanti on the ramp... would it have been rude to take a picture?

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If you want people secured when embarking or deplaning private jets, you build a pull through closeable garage thing or you pull the aircraft into a hangar with blacked out limo ready to receive them.

Anything else, you’re just annoying people doing legal things on a public airport ramp and your FBO is cheap-ass.
 
Juliet Hotel said:
True story: Back when Meigs was an airport instead of a park, I landed there for lunch on our way to Oshkosh. There was a big biz jet of some sort there with the door open and the red carpet out like they were waiting for pax to arrive. Someone pointed to it and said it belonged to some celebrity whose name escapes me now. Jimi Buffet maybe? They said he was already up at Oshkosh but his wife was going to be flying in on that. I took my camera out to take a pic of it and a gigantic security guard approached me and said it was against policy to take pictures of airplane due to security concerns.

That is absolute BS. I was not on the ramp at the time, I was standing on the public observation deck. I told him I was taking a photo of my own airplane but he still insisted it was illegal. Pick your battles and all that, I just let it go. Not worth arguing about with a minimum wager who is blindly following orders.

It is absolutely not rude nor illegal to photograph aircraft on the ramp of a public airport.
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I’m always amazed at how lucky I am that these things never happen to me. If that ever happened to me, I’d probably be in a stretcher, because that would only make me want to take the picture more.
 
Juliet Hotel said:
I took my camera out to take a pic of it and a gigantic security guard approached me and said it was against policy to take pictures of airplane due to security concerns.

That is absolute BS. I was not on the ramp at the time, I was standing on the public observation deck. I told him I was taking a photo of my own airplane but he still insisted it was illegal. Pick your battles and all that, I just let it go. Not worth arguing about with a minimum wager who is blindly following orders.

It is absolutely not rude nor illegal to photograph aircraft on the ramp of a public airport.
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There's a mess of videos out there where people specifically go to government and private facilities and take pictures/video from a public area. Security guards, employees etc come out and harass them and it's fairly entertaining to watch. Sometimes the videographers are professional, sometimes they're just down right nutty. Either way if you're in a publicly accessible area you can take video to your hearts content.
 
The consensus seems to be that it's no big deal, but to be respectful of passengers, which should go without saying. I also liked the point that if you choose to fly something unique, you should expect to get pictures taken of it. There are far more expensive planes parked out there every day that I wouldn't consider taking a picture of, but the avanti got my attention.

I agree that I worry too much about what people think, but on the other hand, these are people I deal with every time I fly, and who take care of the airplane, so I feel it's prudent to keep good relations. There's something to be said for acting like a professional, and like you belong there.
 
Ask first, photograph 2nd. The old saying that it is easier to get forgiveness than permission is a good way to find yourself in a lot of hot water from which you may not be able to extricate yourself. Several posts mention that taking photographs on the ramp is considered as a suspicious activity. If the FBO or somebody seeing you notifies the cops or airport security you might be in for an unpleasant experience. So why take a chance? Ask first!

Don't forget your motives DO NOT MATTER! The only thing that matters is how the other person reacts. It is like hugging a coworker who just shared a personal tragedy. If they misconstrue your actions HR is probably going to have a counseling session with you. Even worse is when you and your co-worker are ok with it but someone else sees it and reports you to HR. Bottom line, you are still the one with a problem and black mark on your record.

Why give the press and stupid bureaucrats an opportunity to tarnish GA?

Wag more, bark less, and never bite first:D
 
jonvcaples said:
Ask first, photograph 2nd. The old saying that it is easier to get forgiveness than permission is a good way to find yourself in a lot of hot water from which you may not be able to extricate yourself. Several posts mention that taking photographs on the ramp is considered as a suspicious activity. If the FBO or somebody seeing you notifies the cops or airport security you might be in for an unpleasant experience. So why take a chance? Ask first!

Don't forget your motives DO NOT MATTER! The only thing that matters is how the other person reacts. It is like hugging a coworker who just shared a personal tragedy. If they misconstrue your actions HR is probably going to have a counseling session with you. Even worse is when you and your co-worker are ok with it but someone else sees it and reports you to HR. Bottom line, you are still the one with a problem and black mark on your record.

Why give the press and stupid bureaucrats an opportunity to tarnish GA?

Wag more, bark less, and never bite first:D
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You can treat yourself like a dog begging for a treat if you'd like. I prefer to treat myself like I'm an American Citizen with rights protected by the constitution.

It is NOT like hugging a coworker. At all.
 
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Salty, exercising some common sense is never a bad idea. It sounds to me like you are one of the people who thinks only your way is the right way and your rights trump everyone else. Kind of like the drivers who appear to think speed limits, stop signs, and traffic signals only apply to everyone else.

Let me take a guess at something. Do you Believe in Gibbs rule that you should never apologize (he says it makes you look weak)? Well I believe that refusing to apologize after you have harmed someone just makes you an arrogant sphincter...and we have way too many of them!

Wag more, bark less, and never bite first
 
jonvcaples said:
Salty, exercising some common sense is never a bad idea. It sounds to me like you are one of the people who thinks only your way is the right way and your rights trump everyone else. Kind of like the drivers who appear to think speed limits, stop signs, and traffic signals only apply to everyone else.

Let me take a guess at something. Do you Believe in Gibbs rule that you should never apologize (he says it makes you look weak)? Well I believe that refusing to apologize after you have harmed someone just makes you an arrogant sphincter...and we have way too many of them!

Wag more, bark less, and never bite first
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You're wrong again about all the above. I'm extremely conscientious about not violating other peoples rights. But, tell me I can't exercise my rights one the other side of a fence by taking a picture, and I'm not going to give a crap what your opinion is. Again, you're conflating things that physically impact other people with something that doesn't effect them one bit. Taking a picture of an airplane does not physically impact anyone. If you think taking a picture in a public place is biting, then you're really off from reality.
 
If you need a second chance to take a picture of a piaggio, simply fly to KASE during the winter. Some dude has one parked there most weekends.
 
Ozone said:
If you need a second chance to take a picture of a piaggio, simply fly to KASE during the winter. Some dude has one parked there most weekends.
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There's a fleet of them here at KPIE.
 
BTW Salty what have you done to protect our rights? Do you vote, are you a first responder, served in the military? My experience is that people who are concerned only with their rights frequently do little to defend, support, or protect the rights of others. Reporters make me ill when they claim to be defending our rights. What a bunch of cow plop! They are beneficiaries of these rights that were won and continue to exist because of people such as first responders and the military who paid for them with their blood, sweat, and tears.

Kind of reminds me of the difference between being involved and being committed and the analogy to bacon and eggs. The chicken was involved but the pig was committed.
 
jonvcaples said:
Salty, exercising some common sense is never a bad idea. It sounds to me like you are one of the people who thinks only your way is the right way and your rights trump everyone else. Kind of like the drivers who appear to think speed limits, stop signs, and traffic signals only apply to everyone else.

Let me take a guess at something. Do you Believe in Gibbs rule that you should never apologize (he says it makes you look weak)? Well I believe that refusing to apologize after you have harmed someone just makes you an arrogant sphincter...and we have way too many of them!

Wag more, bark less, and never bite first
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There seems to be near unanimity that taking pictures is fine. Then you compared it to sexual assault. I think you're off base calling Salty arrogant.:(
 
jonvcaples said:
BTW Salty what have you done to protect our rights? Do you vote, are you a first responder, served in the military? My experience is that people who are concerned only with their rights frequently do little to defend, support, or protect the rights of others. Reporters make me ill when they claim to be defending our rights. What a bunch of cow plop! They are beneficiaries of these rights that were won and continue to exist because of people such as first responders and the military who paid for them with their blood, sweat, and tears.

Kind of reminds me of the difference between being involved and being committed and the analogy to bacon and eggs. The chicken was involved but the pig was committed.
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What the heck is your problem? You continue to build straw men about my positions and behavior. I never claimed ANY of the things you keep stating about me. I think you need to back the F up and relax a bit.

One last thing. My military experience and voting record is none of your business. The cool thing about America is that EVERYONE has the rights protected by the constitution, whether or not they've served or vote. Even if they can't serve, or vote, they still get the same rights. Even if they are skeezy reporters, they get the same rights. It disgusts me that someone thinks that only those that have served get to exercise their rights. I've been around the military all my life, and I've never met any service member that thinks that way. You'd be the first. Your post disgusts me. You do realize Starship Troopers was fiction, right?
 
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Lindberg, I support your right to your opinion and my right to mine. The point I was trying to make is the significance of an event is ultimately determined by the person to whom something is done or by an observer not by the intent of the person performing an action.

Example from my life. I was helping a couple purchase a camera back in my days at a big box store. The woman was wearing a top that looked like a maternity shirt. I asked if one of their reasons for buying the camera was to take baby pictures? (Their answer would help guide recommendation of camera and also builds rapport.) The guy said no. The woman insisted on talking to a manager. Long and the short of it was the manager said the woman was furious! Further, company policy was he would have to write up this event and submit it to HR for formal disciplinary action. However, he knew me well and that I was trying to be friendly and helpful so that was the end of it. Did I do anything wrong? Don't think so. Was I almost the victim? Yes, only the manager's realizing the problem was the woman's extreme over reacting and his willingness to not rigidly enforce a bad policy saved my bacon.
 
jonvcaples said:
Lindberg, I support your right to your opinion and my right to mine. The point I was trying to make is the significance of an event is ultimately determined by the person to whom something is done or by an observer not by the intent of the person performing an action.

Example from my life. I was helping a couple purchase a camera back in my days at a big box store. The woman was wearing a top that looked like a maternity shirt. I asked if one of their reasons for buying the camera was to take baby pictures? (Their answer would help guide recommendation of camera and also builds rapport.) The guy said no. The woman insisted on talking to a manager. Long and the short of it was the manager said the woman was furious! Further, company policy was he would have to write up this event and submit it to HR for formal disciplinary action. However, he knew me well and that I was trying to be friendly and helpful so that was the end of it. Did I do anything wrong? Don't think so. Was I almost the victim? Yes, only the manager's realizing the problem was the woman's extreme over reacting and his willingness to not rigidly enforce a bad policy saved my bacon.
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You still don't seem to be arguing about the topic here, which is taking a picture of an airplane in a public place.
 
Shepherd said:
To the best of my knowledge, it's the fastest turboprop flying today. The interior is comfortable, quiet, and the one I got to ride it was like the Taj Mahal inside.
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According to wikipedia, it holds the coast to coast record for a turboprop. Which apparently was formerly held by Chuck Yeager in a Piper Cheyenne.
 
jonvcaples said:
Lindberg, I support your right to your opinion and my right to mine. The point I was trying to make is the significance of an event is ultimately determined by the person to whom something is done or by an observer not by the intent of the person performing an action.

Example from my life. I was helping a couple purchase a camera back in my days at a big box store. The woman was wearing a top that looked like a maternity shirt. I asked if one of their reasons for buying the camera was to take baby pictures? (Their answer would help guide recommendation of camera and also builds rapport.) The guy said no. The woman insisted on talking to a manager. Long and the short of it was the manager said the woman was furious! Further, company policy was he would have to write up this event and submit it to HR for formal disciplinary action. However, he knew me well and that I was trying to be friendly and helpful so that was the end of it. Did I do anything wrong? Don't think so. Was I almost the victim? Yes, only the manager's realizing the problem was the woman's extreme over reacting and his willingness to not rigidly enforce a bad policy saved my bacon.
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From this I can only conclude that your lack of couth is not a new phenomenon.
 
MooneyDriver78 said:
I would not take a picture of people getting on/off the plane, GA flying does allow one to have some privacy that I would respect.
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You have no right or expectation of privacy in an open public area. That being said, if I'm taking pics of airplanes I generally prefer there are no people in the pic. Not because of anyone's perceived entitlement to privacy but simply because a pic of airplane on a ramp is more interesting with there are no people in the way messing up the shot.
 
Juliet Hotel said:
You have no right or expectation of privacy in an open public area. That being said, if I'm taking pics of airplanes I generally prefer there are no people in the pic. Not because of anyone's perceived entitlement to privacy but simply because a pic of airplane on a ramp is more interesting with there are no people in the way messing up the shot.
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Yeah. Also, if I was taking a picture of your plane and you asked me not to, I'd respect that if you were sincere and not just being a douche. If you're not even there and a body guard tells me I'm not allowed to.... VERY different situation and that's what I was thinking of when I made my initial post on the subject.

Asking me not to exercise my rights is VERY different than telling me I'm not allowed to. That's where I get kinda stubborn.
 
Okay, here is my aviation photograph story....

I just got back from a KHAF run, and I parked my Turbo Arrow in my tie down spot. A Turbo Arrow is hella cool. It just is. Now, I rode my 05 GSXR 750 sportbike to the plane, and parked it next to my plane, actually the next one over to the right, which never leaves the ramp. A GSXR 750 is hella cool. It just is.

The rental 172 on the other side arrives. It is an older man with two younger kids, early teens, both black, he's white, obviously he's taking them up on an adventure flight. They look excited as they get out of the plane, whip out their cameras, come over to my side, and proceed to take photos of...

My motorcycle.
 
Lindberg, Not going to kick the tar baby, respectfully ask you to stop too...:D
 
Salty said:
Yeah. Also, if I was taking a picture of your plane and you asked me not to, I'd respect that if you were sincere and not just being a douche.
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I'm having a hard time imaging how someone can park an airplane or any other object in the open in public and ask others not to take pictures of it without being a douche. If you don't want pictures taken of it, don't take it out in public. Pretty simple.
 
jonvcaples said:
Example from my life. I was helping a couple purchase a camera back in my days at a big box store. The woman was wearing a top that looked like a maternity shirt. I asked if one of their reasons for buying the camera was to take baby pictures?
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Hate to say it, but that’s pretty tacky. Assuming a woman is pregnant is one of those things you just don’t do - it’s a no-go zone...
 
Public airport Morristown NJ (MMU) tries this garbage as well.

CAN I TAKE PICTURES AT YOUR AIRPORT? CAN I FILM A MOVIE AT THE AIRPORT?

Photography, filming, or video recording of any kind on Airport property is prohibited without the express written permission from the Airport Operator.​

https://www.mmuair.com/faqs

Also has signage at the airport referring to enforcement via a non-relevant N.J.S. 2C 18-3b, which turns out to be:

2C:18-3. b. Defiant trespasser. A person commits a petty disorderly persons offense if, knowing that he is not licensed or privileged to do so, he enters or remains in any place as to which notice against trespass is given by:

(1) Actual communication to the actor; or

(2) Posting in a manner prescribed by law or reasonably likely to come to the attention of intruders; or

(3) Fencing or other enclosure manifestly designed to exclude intruders.
​
I’ve had conversation with the airport manager regarding this one in the past. I’d still take pictures there any day I feel like it.
 
Mtns2Skies said:
When I was a ramp rat we had a 350lb Netjets pilot throw a literal temper-tantrum at a local (with an airport badge) that was taking photos... but that's Netjet pilots for ya.

I seem to recall when I started flying 10 years ago Piaggio Avanti's were much more common than they are today. I wonder if they're going by the wayside.
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That's because Piaggio was running a charter outfit called AvantAir. They had several based at KADS, I ran outside like a kid that heard the ice truck bells every time one flew over my house.

POA member Captain was an AvantAir captain. The company folded up under accusations of unairworthy aircraft, cannibilized aircraft that belonged to individual investors, disappearing Benjamin's, etc.
 
Maybe I’m a bit weird in this respect, but I rarely take pictures of machines of any kind. The human stories behind the machines are more interesting to me.

Here is a picture of my wife’s friend whom we visited in Grand Junction. She was super stoked about seeing the small plane and probably will want a ride one of these days.

upload_2019-9-12_1-49-30.jpeg

I didn’t take that picture but it conveys a heck of a lot more to me than just a picture of the plane.
 
woodchucker said:
Maybe I’m a bit weird in this respect, but I rarely take pictures of machines of any kind. The human stories behind the machines are more interesting to me.

Here is a picture of my wife’s friend whom we visited in Grand Junction. She was super stoked about seeing the small plane and probably will want a ride one of these days.

View attachment 77721

I didn’t take that picture but it conveys a heck of a lot more to me than just a picture of the plane.
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Different subject, different context. You like shooting people, not objects and that's perfectly valid. But I strongly suspect you only shoot people who want to have you take their picture. IOW you would probably have zero interest in taking pictures of complete strangers minding their own business in their airplane. And if so, then your point has no impact on the previous discussion.
 
Ryanb said:
Hate to say it, but that’s pretty tacky. Assuming a woman is pregnant is one of those things you just don’t do - it’s a no-go zone...
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From Dave Berry's rules to live by:

You should never say anything to a woman that even remotely suggests that you think she's pregnant unless you can see an actual baby emerging from her at that moment.
 
Salty, go read my earlier post again and pay attention to the exact words. I never claimed, nor do I believe, that only people who have served have rights. We all have rights! I applaud the football players who took and take a knee during the national anthem. That is exercising our rights properly! I do not understand looting or committing violence against innocent people or their property as a form of standing up for one's rights. We still have a long way to go to live up to our goal of freedom, liberty, and justice for all. I do believe that those of us who have served appreciate and have stronger feelings about this.

Growing up in the deep south made me acutely aware of racism from childhood. I never understood people who said that blacks were lazy and untrustworthy. Especially since they had black maids raising their children and running their homes!

Notice that I asked if you had voted, not for whom you voted. I could care less for whom you voted! I care deeply about whether or not you voted because that is (at least in my mind) the keystone of our democratic republic. If you are eligible to vote but do not you forfeit your right to complain.

If you want to drop the sarcasm and vitriol we can continue this if you want. Otherwise I've nothing further to say.
 
Jim K said:
Came back from a solo flight this morning to find an interesting aircraft on the fbo ramp. This one, in fact:

View attachment 77692

I was unfamiliar with them, but I love weird airplanes. I wanted to take a picture, but wasn't sure of the etiquette of photographing airplanes on the ramp, and there were a few line workers around, so I passed. Would it be rude/ weird/ bad form to snap a couple pics for the daily pic thread?
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I took a few pictures of Tiger's G5 when it was at my home drome a few years ago, but it was just for my own interest. I didn't post them anywhere. There were people on board at the time and I kept my distance.

No foul in my opinion, particularly for such an interesting aircraft.
 
jonvcaples said:
Salty, go read my earlier post again and pay attention to the exact words. I never claimed, nor do I believe, that only people who have served have rights. We all have rights! I applaud the football players who took and take a knee during the national anthem. That is exercising our rights properly! I do not understand looting or committing violence against innocent people or their property as a form of standing up for one's rights. We still have a long way to go to live up to our goal of freedom, liberty, and justice for all. I do believe that those of us who have served appreciate and have stronger feelings about this.

Growing up in the deep south made me acutely aware of racism from childhood. I never understood people who said that blacks were lazy and untrustworthy. Especially since they had black maids raising their children and running their homes!

Notice that I asked if you had voted, not for whom you voted. I could care less for whom you voted! I care deeply about whether or not you voted because that is (at least in my mind) the keystone of our democratic republic. If you are eligible to vote but do not you forfeit your right to complain.

If you want to drop the sarcasm and vitriol we can continue this if you want. Otherwise I've nothing further to say.
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You attribute to me all sorts of vile nasty behavior and then ask ME to drop the vitriol? That's pretty rich.

PS> You're still wrong. Even people that don't vote have first amendment rights, which includes complaining.
 
jonvcaples said:
BTW Salty what have you done to protect our rights? Do you vote, are you a first responder, served in the military? My experience is that people who are concerned only with their rights frequently do little to defend, support, or protect the rights of others. Reporters make me ill when they claim to be defending our rights. What a bunch of cow plop! They are beneficiaries of these rights that were won and continue to exist because of people such as first responders and the military who paid for them with their blood, sweat, and tears.

Kind of reminds me of the difference between being involved and being committed and the analogy to bacon and eggs. The chicken was involved but the pig was committed.
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I agree with a lot of what you say, but interestingly, the only institution that actually protects our rights is/are the courts.
 
Roger on the pregnancy! Understand that as of decades ago when the event happened. And it illustrates my contention that we are seldom if ever judged on our intent. My intent was to help the couple choose a good for them camera and, as a parent/grandparent share the event. I remember how excited I was about becoming a parent. Truly the two biggest events of my life.

Did I seek to demean the woman? No. Insult her? No. For reasons known only to her she choose to act the way she did.

I frequently open doors for people of all genders who have their hands full or are wrestling with young children. Most people appreciate it and say so. Occasionally I've been criticized and accused of all kinds of crazy stuff. So, I always just smile and say, "you are welcome", then go about my day.

Spread serendipitous satisfaction and joy...
 
For the record, I like Salty and I agree with his position on the matter 100%. But I'm begging him to ignore this thread. As a matter of fact, I hope the bastard doesn't even see this post.
 
Gerhardt said:
For the record, I like Salty and I agree with his position on the matter 100%. But I'm begging him to ignore this thread. As a matter of fact, I hope the bastard doesn't even see this post.
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I have no idea how to take this. Which is what I think you were going for. LOL
 
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