Pencil-Whipped Annuals

JB1842 said:
Thanks for telling me what an annual inspection is. I can't believe I passed both a Sport pilot written/oral and the Private written without reading the FAR/AIM and didn't read up on anything about inspections and maintenance!:D I'm sorry you feel as if I'm crying wolf or stirring the pot. My thread was titled to get people to read it and to solicit advice and feedback. And when I have multiple people look at the plane and the logbooks and tell me there are some questionable things going on, I think that it raises a valid point about the possibility that the annual could have been pencil-whipped, or a very poor job was done. Not all IA's are trustworthy or very smart. It's like a guy who graduated med school with a C- average, he still gets to call himself Dr.
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Maintenance is kind of a practice........
 
JB1842 said:
...I'm sorry you feel as if I'm crying wolf or stirring the pot. My thread was titled to get people to read it and to solicit advice and feedback....
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Which is my point exactly. You don't have anything substantive to make the accusation and even then it's a shotgun blast aimed in the direction of IA's in general based on speculative assumptions.

You want advice and feedback? I'm giving it to you.
 
Silvaire said:
Which is my point exactly. You don't have anything substantive to make the accusation and even then it's a shotgun blast aimed in the direction of IA's in general based on speculative assumptions.

You want advice and feedback? I'm giving it to you.
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Assumptions based on talking with 2 IA's who have inspected my aircraft. If I'm unable to properly articulate the facts to the internet, my bad. I'm not a mechanic, and therefore might not have fully grasped everything that I have been told, but I am trying to learn. This is the purpose of the thread. I should have been more clear on asking for relavant information in the form of advice and feedback instead of people saying I am blasting all IA's out there. If you don't like the thread, stop reading it.
 
There is no such official publication as the FAR/AIM and if you have such a book it almost certainly omits Part 43 which details what an annual inspection is. All you need learn (and apparently all you DID learn) was that you need an annual once a year. Annuals are not MAINTENANCE, they are inspections.
 
flyingron said:
There is no such official publication as the FAR/AIM and if you have such a book it almost certainly omits Part 43 which details what an annual inspection is. All you need learn (and apparently all you DID learn) was that you need an annual once a year. Annuals are not MAINTENANCE, they are inspections.
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I know the difference between inspections and maintenance. I was just being a smart@ss. My CFI sat with me for a few hours the day I got the plane and we went over a whole bunch of stuff that pertains to aircraft ownership.
 
JB1842 said:
I know the difference between inspections and maintenance. I was just being a smart@ss. My CFI sat with me for a few hours the day I got the plane and we went over a whole bunch of stuff that pertains to aircraft ownership.
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HEY, FELLERS ...

WE've been trying to educate this clown for two days now without much success. I'd suggest we leave him to his rantings and get on with the rest of our concerns.

Bye.

Jim
 
Bye, Jim. Maybe now people can educate me instead of just saying I'm blashing IAs.
 
And what makes you think your CFI has any special knowledge? The FAA doesn't require them to know any more about aircraft maintenance that you are and most of the ones I've met (other than a few like Jim here who hold both mechanic and instructor certificates) don't.
 
flyingron said:
There is no such official publication as the FAR/AIM and if you have such a book it almost certainly omits Part 43 which details what an annual inspection is. All you need learn (and apparently all you DID learn) was that you need an annual once a year. Annuals are not MAINTENANCE, they are inspections.
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Look up the definition of maintenance.. FAR 1.1

Maintenance means inspection, overhaul, repair, preservation, and the replacement of parts, but excludes preventive maintenance.

While I'm performing inspections, I am maintaining your aircraft.
 
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JB1842 said:
I know the difference between inspections and maintenance. I was just being a smart@ss. My CFI sat with me for a few hours the day I got the plane and we went over a whole bunch of stuff that pertains to aircraft ownership.
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If this is what you know, your CFI needs his A$$ kicked.

Apparently not….. Were you a customer of mine I would expect you to know FAR 91.4XXX cold, and FAR 43 as well.
 
flyingron said:
And what makes you think your CFI has any special knowledge? The FAA doesn't require them to know any more about aircraft maintenance that you are and most of the ones I've met (other than a few like Jim here who hold both mechanic and instructor certificates) don't.
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He is an A&P, also.
 
Tom-D said:
If this is what you know, your CFI needs his A$$ kicked.

Apparently not….. Were you a customer of mine I would expect you to know FAR 91.4XXX cold, and FAR 43 as well.
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I admit I don't know enough, and I for sure don't have the FAR's down cold. By knowing saying I know the differene between inspections and maintenance are in my words an inspections is to find problems that make your aircraft unairworthy, and that maintenance is to fix the unairworthy things (and do other things) found in the inspection.
 
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Hard to get the harshness in this thread. Guy comes on and whines about cost, and mx, and stuff just like a thousand other guys and he gets the firey shaft with no lube.

Bummer, Having been there, I feel the pain.
 
docmirror said:
Hard to get the harshness in this thread. Guy comes on and whines about cost, and mx, and stuff just like a thousand other guys and he gets the firey shaft with no lube.

Bummer, Having been there, I feel the pain.
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I'm not trying to whine, but I can understand how some people can see that. I was just wondering if the stuff found by the IA could have meant that the annual conducted prior to my getting the plane wasn't up to snuff.
 
It wasn't. I think you have a valid whine. Not everything is about cost. If I had left my Grumman alone for another 10-12 hours of flight time the alt would likely be bouncing around in the lower cowl. Maybe it wouldn't have shorted out, or burned something. Maybe it would have just sat there, and not screwed anything up while I made a perfect landing with no elec. But - hard to justify that situation given that the prev annual was less than 15 days old.
 
docmirror said:
It wasn't. I think you have a valid whine. Not everything is about cost. If I had left my Grumman alone for another 10-12 hours of flight time the alt would likely be bouncing around in the lower cowl. Maybe it wouldn't have shorted out, or burned something. Maybe it would have just sat there, and not screwed anything up while I made a perfect landing with no elec. But - hard to justify that situation given that the prev annual was less than 15 days old.
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It was more than fifteen days. I've had the plane since March when it came with a "signed-off annual", but I only have 13 hours in it plus the 4 or so hours it was flown to me. There were some things that I'm having fixed that I know aren't airworthy items that I knew about, but some that were a surprise to me and my shop. I'm not too worried about cost. I had to fix the stuff sooner or later.
 
JB1842 said:
I'm not trying to whine, but I can understand how some people can see that. I was just wondering if the stuff found by the IA could have meant that the annual conducted prior to my getting the plane wasn't up to snuff.
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Give it time, you'll grow older and become grumpy, jaded and pedantic too. You'll find yourself telling people the why the phrase "ATM machine" is incorrect in between sessions of keeping kids out of your yard.
 
bartmc said:
Give it time, you'll grow older and become grumpy, jaded and pedantic too. You'll find yourself telling people the why the phrase "ATM machine" is incorrect in between sessions of keeping kids out of your yard.
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Nice. I've already be called jaded and grumpy. I had to look up pedantic. I only have one neighbor with little kids, and there is fence between us (not that it stops them, but my dog likes playing with them). And me and my wife already argue over "ATM machine". I call them ATM machine, she calls them Tyme machines. We also argue over "bubbler" and "water fountain".
 
JB1842 said:
It was more than fifteen days. .
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I was talking about my tale of woe. I bought the plane and got it home. It was annualled when I picked it up. I flew mine for a few hours, and found the alt bracket busted and the bolt wobbling around. That started us down the road you are on now.
 
JB1842 said:
I admit I don't know enough, and I for sure don't have the FAR's down cold. By knowing saying I know the differene between inspections and maintenance are in my words an inspections is to find problems that make your aircraft unairworthy, and that maintenance is to fix the unairworthy things (and do other things) found in the inspection.
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nope…. read the far again.

Some inspections are no more than operational checks, 91.207.---- 91.411

read the whole section 91.400

I don't care if you are a student pilot, or an ATP, you are an owner and must know what is expected of you as such.. 91.400 and Far 43. know them, or you'll get hosed before you get turned around.
 
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docmirror said:
I was talking about my tale of woe. I bought the plane and got it home. It was annualled when I picked it up. I flew mine for a few hours, and found the alt bracket busted and the bolt wobbling around. That started us down the road you are on now.
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Ouch. That sucks.
 
Tom-D said:
nope…. read the far again.

Some inspections are no more than operational checks, 91.207.---- 91.411

read the whole section 91.400

I don't care if you are a student pilot, or an ATP, you are an owner and must know what is expected of you as such.. 91.400 and Far 43. know them, or you'll get hosed before you get turned around.
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Thanks. This is the kind of feedback I like. Besides telling me I'm wrong, you are pointing out where I can read and learn to know what information I am lacking.
 
Skylane81E said:
Spoken like a cop, why don't you tell us what ELSE you have been called ;)
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That would not be fit for the finer folk of this board. Plus it might send this thread to the Spin Zone. Probably easier to think of what I haven't been called.
 
Ok, Josh, I have been watching quietly, but my BS meter just pegged.
 
JB1842 said:
Thanks for telling me what an annual inspection is. I can't believe I passed both a Sport pilot written/oral and the Private written without reading the FAR/AIM and didn't read up on anything about inspections and maintenance!:D I'm sorry you feel as if I'm crying wolf or stirring the pot. My thread was titled to get people to read it and to solicit advice and feedback. And when I have multiple people look at the plane and the logbooks and tell me there are some questionable things going on, I think that it raises a valid point about the possibility that the annual could have been pencil-whipped, or a very poor job was done. Not all IA's are trustworthy or very smart. It's like a guy who graduated med school with a C- average, he still gets to call himself Dr.
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Twelve percent of the licensed aircraft mechanics in this country went to my high school. At least one of my classmates with an aircraft mechanic's certificate is a neurosurgeon. He jokes about being able to fix brains or planes. His jokes are not so great, but I would be hard-pressed to call him a dummy. I sincerely doubt you could keep up with most of my classmates who earned their mechanic's certificates.

I have some credentials as well. However, at the moment, I rely on really smart guys like Tom D. for advice, because most IAs are really smart..

FDR-A&P, admitted to practice law in Maryland, more than 30 years experience as an economist, former Company commander and Brigade Chemical Officer.
 
Frank said:
Twelve percent of the licensed aircraft mechanics in this country went to my high school. At least one of my classmates with an aircraft mechanic's certificate is a neurosurgeon. He jokes about being able to fix brains or planes. His jokes are not so great, but I would be hard-pressed to call him a dummy. I sincerely doubt you could keep up with most of my classmates who earned their mechanic's certificates.

I have some credentials as well. However, at the moment, I rely on really smart guys like Tom D. for advice, because most IAs are really smart..

FDR-A&P, admitted to practice law in Maryland, more than 30 years experience as an economist, former Company commander and Brigade Chemical Officer.
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Bull****. I have worked with people with PhDs from MIT who I wouldn't hire. Most people are apathetic if not just idiots. On my plane, it took 4 A&Ps and 1 year to find a simple oil leak. $1000 bucks later and a guy at my airport who has never earned a living from his A&P credentials and just got it for fun found it and fixed it for free in about half an hour. I had mag trouble, stopped in at an airport to get it fixed, the A&P there had to have someone come in because he didn't know how to time mags. I could train a chimp to time mags. Another one told me that "his pens ink flowed freely" and he'd write whatever I wanted. I work as an engineer, I have no qualms about saying 90% of the folks in my profession are not competent at their job. It burns my ass that they're even working with the same credentials as myself, but such is the state of the apathetic work force in America.

One thing about this thread that scares the hell out of me is that the A&Ps here are jumping in and white knighting for another A&P who they don't know but going all in on their credentials. It's 2 years at community college, not rocket surgery. I've seen more hatchet jobs of A&Ps than not.
 
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Ok here's my A&P rant.

A tale of two mechanics. My regular guy is a drunk. He's in his 70s and looks like 90. He checks my work, and puts his signature on whatever I put in front of him with a case of beer. He was a good mech at one time, and I know he's got a lot of great knowledge about obscure things like SeaBees and 337s. No matter, he's done me a solid in terms of paperwork for years.

My other guy, that I go to for real work on real systems is fantastic. He's in his early 30s, has his ratings through ATP, his work on my shoulder harnesses was flawless, and he straightened out some wrinkles in a gear door so that it looks factory. I've seen him inspect an engine, and find things that would be a problem in 2-3 years, and he's right on it. He's set my carb and timing so that I get the best running engine and I trust him completely.

The first guy is much more like what I find out there, the second guy is rare and I keep him happy. Most are somewhere in between.
 
Should we start a thread so we mechanics can rant on owners?
 
weirdjim said:
WHAT belly fuel drain?
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On the 150, there is a T in the line from the fuel valve to the gascolator, with the stub poking out through the bottom of the fuselage. The factory put a cap on it, and the 150 / 152 Club has an STC to replace that cap with a spring-loaded sump drain. This is the lowest point in the fuel system.
 
JB1842 said:
Agree, but I won the plane. No pre-buy. I don't want to sound ungrateful for the opportunity to own a plane for a $50 raffle ticket, but it makes me wonder about other stuff that could be wrong. Overall, I'm very happy with the condition of the plane. I knew going in it wouldn't be a fully restored aircraft, but when I think of a fresh annual, I think they would have done more than change the oil and sign the logbooks.
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All an annual is is an IA signing that the plane meets standards (the list of items is in the Service Manual) complies with ADs and is safe for flight. It is NOT a statement that the aircraft is in perfect condition.
 
weirdjim said:
By the way, lots of my friends keep a gallon jerry can in the hangar to take drained fuel. Makes the lawnmower start again in the spring a lot easier :yesnod:
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I learned a trick from an instructor I knew. He bungeed a gas can to a hand truck, and had everything needed for preflight, adding oil, cleaning plexiglass, etc in a couple of bins and boxes attached to the truck. On the back was a folding stepladder.

You simply wheeled the cart to the plane, did your preflight, and gas taken from the sump drains was poured into the gas can through a funnel. Periodically, the gas was sucked out of the can and put back into airplanes.
 
Tom-D said:
Should we start a thread so we mechanics can rant on owners?
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You sure one thread will be enough? Between the sermons, misinformation and petty hair splitting, it seems more like a way of life.
 
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