Pencil-Whipped Annuals

Dan Thomas said:
...The Cessna inspection checklist tells you to remove that plug each 100 hours or one year and drain the accumulated dirt or water from that low spot....
Click to expand...

Not in my books Dan. If you are using the Cessna 150 manual inspection checklist the pre-63 book makes no mention of it. The 63-76 book simply says "Fuel valve drain plug" (nothing more) and lists it in the 200 hour column - the same one in which you are supposed to disassemble the alternator and starter to check the brushes, commutator and slip rings which I'm sure everyone does religiously every 200 hours. :rolleyes:

Part 43 appendix D also makes no mention of removing the drain plug from the fuel selector valve.

The biggest problem with C-150 fuel valves is that they never get used and virtually seize in the ON position.
 
Silvaire said:
The 63-76 book simply says "Fuel valve drain plug" (nothing more) and lists it in the 200 hour column - the same one in which you are supposed to disassemble the alternator and starter to check the brushes, commutator and slip rings which I'm sure everyone does religiously every 200 hours.
Click to expand...

The mention of it means that they want it pulled and checked. Same as the carb drain plug. The notes at the end of the inspection sheets should give details about the alternator brushes; they usually want a 500-hour check. They were usually getting pretty short at the 1000-hour mark.

It's been a while since I looked at a 150 manual, but the rest of Chapter 2 (where the inspection sheets are found) will give details about the stuff on the inspection.

The old Prestolite starters did eat their brushes and we used to check them every 200. The inspection cover on the starter allows that. The new PM starters are good until TBO.

Dan
 
Tom-D said:
I am doing the first annual for a new owner of a 1993 American Champion 8KAB, the brake pads are gone, yes worn thru the rivets and the linings are gone, and the disks are ruined. That doesn't happen in the 50+ hours he has owned the aircraft.

I don't believe the wheel pants have ever been off this aircraft.

pictures
Click to expand...

You've seen the before pictures, now the after
 

Attachments

  • DSCN3764.JPG
    DSCN3764.JPG
    2.3 MB · Views: 16
  • DSCN3765.JPG
    DSCN3765.JPG
    2.2 MB · Views: 16
  • DSCN3766.jpg
    DSCN3766.jpg
    3.4 MB · Views: 17
Nothing in the first post points to a 'pencil whipped annual'. Brake pads are normal wear items, and bad gas can happen at any time. Problems with fuel drains are very common and can happen at any time.

I think it's very common for an IA conducting an annual on a airplane he or she hasn't seen before to find issues that the prior inspector either missed or (more likely) didn't place as much importance on.

Now if a new inspector finds a mandatory AD that was overlooked, or finds serious corrosion that obviously predates the prior inspections then you have right to question the prior inspector.

But really, welcome to airplane ownership.
 
Tom-D said:
I am doing the first annual for a new owner of a 1993 American Champion 8KAB, the brake pads are gone, yes worn thru the rivets and the linings are gone, and the disks are ruined. That doesn't happen in the 50+ hours he has owned the aircraft.

I don't believe the wheel pants have ever been off this aircraft.

pictures
Click to expand...

Interesting the visual wear indicator still looked good on one end of one brake, but worn across the rest of the pad.

I'd check the o rings that the brake piston is resetting ok and not causing the brakes to drag and wear prematurely.

Does not happen in 50hrs of ownership, unless this pilot drags the brakes for taxi control in a taildragger.
 
I am with most of the others here in saying that what they doesn't sound like anything to be getting a witch hunt stirred up over. The purpose of the annual inspection is to determine airworthiness of the A/C in question. (As you already knew of course.) Having not know what happened last time might I add that maybe they did tell them the brakes were worn last time. Maybe the owner chose not to have them fixed. Maybe there were within last time? Either way its not an airworthy item. Some people will scream and hollar about some things. I try and take a much more realistic view of things in my shop. Believe me, there are many more owners who want that kind of look the other way work done and they will find a friend of a friend to give them what they want. You will find that anytime a new shop is trying to drum up business some will try and make you believe that you are very lucky that you finally found them and the "Last" person who did this.......

Either way....it will be ok.
 
When the mechanic opens up the cowling, and the first thing he does is point at something and says, "That's illegal!", I have to wonder if the annual is pencil-whipped.
 
JB1842 said:
When the mechanic opens up the cowling, and the first thing he does is point at something and says, "That's illegal!", I have to wonder if the annual is pencil-whipped.
Click to expand...

When that happens, ask them to show you book and far why they think so.
 
BillTIZ said:
Interesting the visual wear indicator still looked good on one end of one brake, but worn across the rest of the pad.

I'd check the o rings that the brake piston is resetting ok and not causing the brakes to drag and wear prematurely.
Click to expand...

What visual wear indicator?

OBTW the guide pins in the carrier determine the position of the brake pad to disk position, not the "0" rings.
 
JB1842 said:
When the mechanic opens up the cowling, and the first thing he does is point at something and says, "That's illegal!", I have to wonder if the annual is pencil-whipped.
Click to expand...

Did he point out why/where? Many - no, most - older planes have stuff installed under STCs or field approvals.
 
wsuffa said:
Did he point out why/where? Many - no, most - older planes have stuff installed under STCs or field approvals.
Click to expand...

He said it had to do with the installation of the air/oil seperator. He pointed out that the installation was wrong, but the way they installed it adding extra tubes, and where those tubes went, was according to him "illegal". Don't know myself why that would be illegal, but I don't fix planes for a living.
 
JB1842 said:
When the mechanic opens up the cowling, and the first thing he does is point at something and says, "That's illegal!", I have to wonder if the annual is pencil-whipped.
Click to expand...

So did you guys call the cops? I ask because, regardless of what he saw when opening the cowl, the only thing that is possibly "illegal" would be the act of you taking it up and flying in it.

To be honest I don't think we are getting the whole story here because you seem to be augmenting the details from your original post. Maybe you're talking about a nylon zip-tie on the motor mount, I don't know. Frankly I think you may want to find a different mechanic. Is this the same one to whom you brought the airplane with a nosegear fork that had nearly been busted clean off, who subsequently replaced said fork and then proceeded to go for a test flight without having even looked under the floor at the main gear mounting bulkheads only to discover during taxi that there was a severe gear shimmy?

BTW - what ever came of that?
 
Silvaire said:
So did you guys call the cops? I ask because, regardless of what he saw when opening the cowl, the only thing that is possibly "illegal" would be the act of you taking it up and flying in it.

To be honest I don't think we are getting the whole story here because you seem to be augmenting the details from your original post. Maybe you're talking about a nylon zip-tie on the motor mount, I don't know. Frankly I think you may want to find a different mechanic. Is this the same one to whom you brought the airplane with a nosegear fork that had nearly been busted clean off, who subsequently replaced said fork and then proceeded to go for a test flight without having even looked under the floor at the main gear mounting bulkheads only to discover during taxi that there was a severe gear shimmy?

BTW - what ever came of that?
Click to expand...

I'm sorry I can't remember all the things he told me that needed to be fixed in my original post. Some were airworthy issues, which made me wonder if the previous annual wasn't up to par; some issues were stuff that could be fixed at my leisure. Not sure why he said it was "illegal". I'm a cop, by the way. The main wheels were cracked, getting parts in later this week. This mechanic is a good one. The owners of my flight school, who use a different mechanic by the way, have said he is a good, honest, knowledgeable mechanic. He didn't check the mains at first becuase it was my call, because at the time I wasn't filing an insucrance claim, and I told him to fix what was plainly borken, and then we would worry about anything found after that. That's on me, not him.
 
JB1842 said:
I'm sorry I can't remember all the things he told me that needed to be fixed in my original post.
Click to expand...

Is anybody else's Troll-O-Meter starting to twitch? Now "cracked wheels" that were optional to fix? Illegal breather installations?

So far the needle is up to about 2 or so.

Jim
 
weirdjim said:
Is anybody else's Troll-O-Meter starting to twitch? Now "cracked wheels" that were optional to fix? Illegal breather installations?

So far the needle is up to about 2 or so.

Jim
Click to expand...

I never said cracked wheels were optional. Those weren't found until after the nose wheel was fixed and they were looking for the shimmy they found during the taxi. And for the illegal installation, that was his word, not mine. Not all of us are all knowing IA's out there. Just trying to learn what I can with the information I was given. If I was to be a troll, I would have much more fun with this.:yes:
 
Tom-D said:
What visual wear indicator?

OBTW the guide pins in the carrier determine the position of the brake pad to disk position, not the "0" rings.
Click to expand...

I use the groove in one end of the pad to show the depth of the wear. That groove is about the top of the brass rivets when mounted.

I'm not talking about the guide pins on the carrier, I'm talking about the brake caliper piston O ring not allowing the piston to retract and reduce pressure on the pads when the brake is released at the pilot control actuating lever.

Had one caliper piston get jammed and wore through the brake pads on that wheel in a month.
 
BillTIZ said:
I use the groove in one end of the pad to show the depth of the wear. That groove is about the top of the brass rivets when mounted.

I'm not talking about the guide pins on the carrier, I'm talking about the brake caliper piston O ring not allowing the piston to retract and reduce pressure on the pads when the brake is released at the pilot control actuating lever.

Had one caliper piston get jammed and wore through the brake pads on that wheel in a month.
Click to expand...

What holds the break caliper true to the disk? the "O" ring? no.

With the new pads in place the piston retracted as it should. and there is no leakage, as there would be if it were not true to the cylinder.
 
weirdjim said:
Is anybody else's Troll-O-Meter starting to twitch?
Jim
Click to expand...

No. He started a thread about a broke plane. It looks to me like things are snowballing some from the original insurance fix.
 
docmirror said:
No. He started a thread about a broke plane. It looks to me like things are snowballing some from the original insurance fix.
Click to expand...

As usual, many read into a post what they think happened not really what was said.
 
docmirror said:
No. He started a thread about a broke plane. It looks to me like things are snowballing some from the original insurance fix.
Click to expand...

Yes. While some things I knew I would have to address in the future when I first got the plane, there were some questionable things that made me wonder if the annual completed before I got the plane left something to be desired. Looking back into the correspondence I had with the organization I won the plane from, they said that the plane would come with a "signed-off annual inspection". Does that mean it was pencil-whipped, or that the guy I was talking to just uses that phrase for a proper annual being done? I'm sort of glad that I had the accident, if that's possible. I'm learning more about my plane, getting some things fixed, and getting suggestions/recommendations for future fixes. I have no allusions that aircraft ownership is cheap or easy, but again I'm here trying to learn as much as I can.
 
Just curious - have you figured out yet how much this "free" plane is going to cost you?
 
I think the rub is that there is no definition for 'pencil-whipped'. One mans airworthy defect could be another mans let-it-slide. I had a plastic fairing covering the gear leg that was considered cosmetic by one guy, and flight safety by another. The fuel selector was kinda hard to turn and could go either way also.
 
docmirror said:
I think the rub is that there is no definition for 'pencil-whipped'. One mans airworthy defect could be another mans let-it-slide. I had a plastic fairing covering the gear leg that was considered cosmetic by one guy, and flight safety by another. The fuel selector was kinda hard to turn and could go either way also.
Click to expand...

Way back in my logbooks, prior to my purchase of the plane, there is a notation from an IA for a large FBO that flagged the plane as unairworthy since it didn't have a current IFR GPS database subscription. That had to be a whale of an annual....
 
wsuffa said:
Just curious - have you figured out yet how much this "free" plane is going to cost you?
Click to expand...

The stuff that insurance won't cover, or work that I elected to have done, around $1000. A bit of it needed to be done, and I had planned to do it at the next annual. Some of it was a surprise, like the fuel line. No biggie overall. Nothing in life is free.
 
docmirror said:
I think the rub is that there is no definition for 'pencil-whipped'. One mans airworthy defect could be another mans let-it-slide. I had a plastic fairing covering the gear leg that was considered cosmetic by one guy, and flight safety by another. The fuel selector was kinda hard to turn and could go either way also.
Click to expand...

I can see this train of thought. About the only thing I'm putting off right now is fixing the pre-heater. That won't be needed for a few more months.
 
My first plane (PA28-150), was gone over pretty good. 1st annual, $5,000 bucks.
1. All new hoses, almost none had dates, some were life limited per AD. The logbooks didn't make me or my IA feel good, $1000.
2. 500 hr AD on the impulse coupler came due. OOOPS it was the rivet type and they're 100hr, it was 5 times over due. OOOPPPS it had the problem, loose rivet. Mags need overhauled too $1000.00

You're getting new eyes on the plane, I recommend taking it every other year or so to a new mechanic for annual. Not knocking A&Ps some just get tunnel vision on planes they see month after month and year after year.
 
Do you change physicians, dentists and CPAs regularly for the same reason?

bartmc said:
My first plane (PA28-150), was gone over pretty good. 1st annual, $5,000 bucks.
1. All new hoses, almost none had dates, some were life limited per AD. The logbooks didn't make me or my IA feel good, $1000.
2. 500 hr AD on the impulse coupler came due. OOOPS it was the rivet type and they're 100hr, it was 5 times over due. OOOPPPS it had the problem, loose rivet. Mags need overhauled too $1000.00

You're getting new eyes on the plane, I recommend taking it every other year or so to a new mechanic for annual. Not knocking A&Ps some just get tunnel vision on planes they see month after month and year after year.
Click to expand...
 
JB1842 said:
Yes. While some things I knew I would have to address in the future when I first got the plane, there were some questionable things that made me wonder if the annual completed before I got the plane left something to be desired...
Click to expand...

I'm going to cut you some slack Josh because despite the fact that you have already won an airplane in a raffle and survived a night crash you are new to the aviation world so I'll give you the lapse of etiquette. I'll return to my original point:

To title a thread "Pencil-Whipped Annuals" based on all of what you have divulged so far is a plain and simple over the top, stir the pot, cry wolf and draw attention tactic. I'd like to first of all explain to you what an annual inspection is:

It's a conformance check, it's not maintenance. When an annual is signed off it means only one thing and that is that the aircraft is in compliance and airworthy at that moment in time. It doesn't mean that it's good for another year it only means that it has complied with the requirement to be inspected.

As a newbie aircraft owner you are going to have to face a simple fact - the condition of that aircraft that you fly in is YOUR RESPONSIBILITY.
 
JB1842 said:
I can see this train of thought. About the only thing I'm putting off right now is fixing the pre-heater. That won't be needed for a few more months.
Click to expand...

Do you now understand, why some folks say " you couldn't give me that aircraft"?


now i'm messing with ya.
 
Silvaire said:
I'm going to cut you some slack Josh because despite the fact that you have already won an airplane in a raffle and survived a night crash you are new to the aviation world so I'll give you the lapse of etiquette. I'll return to my original point:

To title a thread "Pencil-Whipped Annuals" based on all of what you have divulged so far is a plain and simple over the top, stir the pot, cry wolf and draw attention tactic. I'd like to first of all explain to you what an annual inspection is:

It's a conformance check, it's not maintenance. When an annual is signed off it means only one thing and that is that the aircraft is in compliance and airworthy at that moment in time. It doesn't mean that it's good for another year it only means that it has complied with the requirement to be inspected.

As a newbie aircraft owner you are going to have to face a simple fact - the condition of that aircraft that you fly in is YOUR RESPONSIBILITY.
Click to expand...
You make me laugh, every one knows an annual is good for 13 months, then it goes in for its maintenance period and comes out good for another year. plus all the changes and up grades are part of the annual, so that is why the price of an annual can be $15k or more.
 
I know Tom, even if the guy whacks his wingtip on the light pole at the fuel pumps on the way out he needn't worry about it until next year :D
 
wabower said:
Do you change physicians, dentists and CPAs regularly for the same reason?
Click to expand...

Not sure I've ever been to the same doc twice, CPA, you betcha. Just painfully changed CPA this past year,,,,they can get too comfy and complacent too, I need to find a dentist, thanks for reminding me.
 
Tom-D said:
You make me laugh, every one knows an annual is good for 13 months, then it goes in for its maintenance period and comes out good for another year. plus all the changes and up grades are part of the annual, so that is why the price of an annual can be $15k or more.
Click to expand...

Which is a more realistic description of what will happen at annual time, than the hair splitting you guys are doing on the technical definition. He isn't going to know until annual that his throttle cable is getting tired, a bushing in the gear is feeling a little sloppy, an exhaust mount has a wallowed out hole,,the vent tube is supposed to be longer than that, tension on a push rod is too much etc...guess when it gets fixed? It's easier to say annual than "maintenance performed as a result of issues found during the annual inspection"
 
Josh, Crash, whatever -
You don't fix airplanes for a living, neither do I.
I also don't have my mechanic's depth of experience (he grew up in his fathers airplane shop).
But I do know MY airplane.
I know by being there when the first annual was done. I know it by doing the minor maintenance items, I know it by being there to hand a wrench when the major items were done - new cylinders, etc..
At this point he asks my opinion of how this or that is working on the plane and together we decide what items will be addressed right now and what will wait.
Now, not much waits - I'm pretty anal about my flying machine, well other than appearance. Looking fancy does not make em fly. So I put my money where the flying is.
And that is how you will be IF you hang in there, through the teething process of bringing an abused machine back into good condition - and if you get in there and swing some wrenches under his watchful eye. Yeah it's gonna cost some bucks (shrug) This is airplane 101. If you can't take the heat, sell it.
A few years from now you will be giving advice to some new airplane owner.
 
Silvaire said:
To title a thread "Pencil-Whipped Annuals" based on all of what you have divulged so far is a plain and simple over the top, stir the pot, cry wolf and draw attention tactic. I'd like to first of all explain to you what an annual inspection is:
Click to expand...

Thanks for telling me what an annual inspection is. I can't believe I passed both a Sport pilot written/oral and the Private written without reading the FAR/AIM and didn't read up on anything about inspections and maintenance!:D I'm sorry you feel as if I'm crying wolf or stirring the pot. My thread was titled to get people to read it and to solicit advice and feedback. And when I have multiple people look at the plane and the logbooks and tell me there are some questionable things going on, I think that it raises a valid point about the possibility that the annual could have been pencil-whipped, or a very poor job was done. Not all IA's are trustworthy or very smart. It's like a guy who graduated med school with a C- average, he still gets to call himself Dr.
 
You must log in or register to reply here.
Back
Top