PC advice

[JOhnH]

I think it's time to upgrade to a new PC. I have been out of the business and out of the market for some time, so I am not up to date on offerings. I have some preconceptions though that may or may not still be true. My current computer is at least 10 years old and has OS, memory and disks upgraded and fans and power supplies fixed.

This would be strictly for home use. Web browsing, email, Microsoft word and Excel. But in the past I have tried to load various graphics programs (photo shop) or flight simulators and they just couldn't cut the mustard.

I like my 23" monitor so I think I need a tower. I'm sure I could connect my monitor to a laptop but that doesn't seem practical.

Should I get an Intel processor or are there better computers these days?

Should I get windows 10 "home" or "pro"? I always used to go for pro, but could that be an issue?
Is there any benefit to an Intel processor or are there better choices?

I buy computers like I but cars and trucks; rarely. I buy good new stuff and keep it till it doesn't fill my needs any more.

What say you all? (just don't say to build my own or buy a Mac). But if Bonanza made computers, then that might be a good suggestion.

 

[PaulS]

Don't get a microsoft computer, I have a surface book 2 and it is a piece of crap.

For the graphics stuff the graphic card becomes important. Be careful, they get expensive quickly, but sounds like middle of the road would be good for you. I would do intel processor, at least 8 gb of memory, more if you can afford it. An SSD hard drive, and a Geforce RTX or GTX graphics card, mid grade (price), which will run flight simulators. Best to look at what the graphics or simulator companies recommend too. I would buy at least an I7 processor.

 

[Bob Noel]

"I like my 23" monitor so I think I need a tower. I'm sure I could connect my monitor to a laptop but that doesn't seem practical."

Connecting an external monitor to a laptop is a really quite easy. Until I retired I used an external monitor (actually 2 monitors) with my work laptop - very useful and practical

 

[Ravioli]

Don't get a microsoft computer, I have a surface book 2 and it is a piece of crap.

Interesting. I've been using a Surface Laptop 2 exclusively for about 1.5 years. The "book" was supposed to be better, if price means anything. I only drive 4 external monitors from it at the office, and it's all I need to carry forth and back. Never an issue. But then, I could get by with 2 NUC's if I didn't care about portability.

Since @JOhnH like his monitor and doesn't describe and great requirements, a NUC may be the answer: https://www.intel.com/content/www/us/en/products/boards-kits/nuc/mini-pcs.html

 

[Justin M]

I like my Lenovo T490s. I have a Thinkpad USB-C port extender and 2 23" monitors attached to it.

 

[murphey]

1) The Surface and a tower or laptop are very different animals because they’re for different target audiences and applications, even if both are Microsoft products.
2) shopping list....what applications do you absolutely require, and which would be nice to have but can get along without? Those will drive your choices.
3) Budget
4) Always at home or will you want to carry it with you sometimes?

Most reasonably prices laptops aren’t powerful enough to run the latest version of MS Flight sim or X-Plane as well as you’d like. If you want a sim, look at the hardware minimums and recommended configurations. Also look at same for any applications you want.

One option that often goes ignored is a headless box, since you already have a monitor, which is really nothing more than a small version of a tower. The headless is also known as a NUC.

More later, after brunch.

 

[asicer]

Should I get an Intel processor or are there better computers these days?

If you are building or upgrading your own, AMD is better. Intel desktop chips have been stuck on a 14nm process since SykLake (nearly 6 years ago) while AMD Zen 3 is on a 7nm process that's 2 generations newer. The only exception is if you use Intel QuickSync for video processing.

I like my 23" monitor so I think I need a tower. I'm sure I could connect my monitor to a laptop but that doesn't seem practical.

You could, but 23" is on the small side especially if the resolution is greater than 1080p FHD. Personally, I prefer a 4k 32". Most newer motherboards and graphics cards have multiple HDMI and/or DP ports so you can easily run more than one monitor if you have room for them.

if Bonanza made computers

Get a Mac

 

[PaulS]

1) The Surface and a tower or laptop are very different animals because they’re for different target audiences and applications, even if both are Microsoft products.
2) shopping list....what applications do you absolutely require, and which would be nice to have but can get along without? Those will drive your choices.
3) Budget
4) Always at home or will you want to carry it with you sometimes?

Most reasonably prices laptops aren’t powerful enough to run the latest version of MS Flight sim or X-Plane as well as you’d like. If you want a sim, look at the hardware minimums and recommended configurations. Also look at same for any applications you want.

One option that often goes ignored is a headless box, since you already have a monitor, which is really nothing more than a small version of a tower. The headless is also known as a NUC.

More later, after brunch.

I'm speaking from a quality stand point on the Surface, it sucks, bad connectors, overheats, F them. Then MS does an update and breaks the graphics card for almost a year. I'm done with Microsoft hardware. Great idea, ok design, very bad execution.

 

[schmookeeg]

If you have used the same PC for the last 10 years, then:

1. Go to Costco.
2. Purchase whatever tower they have on offer in the circa $600 range.
3. See you again in 2030

 

[murphey]

Advantage of tower....you can easily add more memory. It’s always cheaper for you to add memory to towers or NUC than the factory or the shop.

Memory is the easiest and cheapest upgrade you can make.

 

[Palmpilot]

I've had good luck with HP, but I'm not familiar with their current offerings.

The things I like about them are quality, support, and the depth of documentation available on their Web site.

 

[wsuffa]

You may or may not be able to keep and use your monitor - most new computers and almost all laptops have an HDMI video interface while older monitors had DVI or analog video interfaces. Adapters are available but they don't always work - heck, I saw a Lenovo laptop with HDMI interface that wouldn't work with an older TV/monitor that had an early HDMI input.

 

[bflynn]

Ok...

You said you tried to load a flight simulator but it didn't work (on your 10 year old computer). That's rather expected.

The question is, do you want to run a flight simulator? If so, the cost will be significantly above web/email/office, you're basically looking for a gaming computer.

Simple home use - get the $600 computer or the low end Mac if you like that route. Either will take you everywhere you want to go.

To run a flight simulator, you'll start with the computer. The basics haven't changed, but you will want a high end CPU (I'd look for 8 cores, 3+ MHz clock speed of the latest design), minimum 16GB of memory and a good graphics card - at least a 1080. On top of that, you will also want a yoke and throttle quadrant and rudder pedals are nice. For the yoke, my opinion is the Honeycomb is the only choice. The Logitech/Saitek yokes are very common and they are junk, I actively advise against them (as I'm doing now). Price wise, you're looking at $1500-$2000 for the computer and another $350 or so for the flight controls.

Your call which way you want to go.

Your monitor is probably fine either way. Just recognize what kind of port it needs and make sure whatever computer/graphics card you get supports that connector or that you can get a convertor for it. VGA to HDMI is cheap, simple and works.

 

[asicer]

Advantage of tower....you can easily add more memory. It’s always cheaper for you to add memory to towers or NUC than the factory or the shop.

Bear in mind that NUC takes SO-DIMM rather than desktop DIMM. Also, some NUC can take a 2.5" drive and some cannot.

 

[JOhnH]

Ok...

You said you tried to load a flight simulator but it didn't work (on your 10 year old computer). That's rather expected.

The question is, do you want to run a flight simulator? If so, the cost will be significantly above web/email/office, you're basically looking for a gaming computer.

Simple home use - get the $600 computer or the low end Mac if you like that route. Either will take you everywhere you want to go.

To run a flight simulator, you'll start with the computer. The basics haven't changed, but you will want a high end CPU (I'd look for 8 cores, 3+ MHz clock speed of the latest design), minimum 16GB of memory and a good graphics card - at least a 1080. On top of that, you will also want a yoke and throttle quadrant and rudder pedals are nice. For the yoke, my opinion is the Honeycomb is the only choice. The Logitech/Saitek yokes are very common and they are junk, I actively advise against them (as I'm doing now). Price wise, you're looking at $1500-$2000 for the computer and another $350 or so for the flight controls.

Your call which way you want to go.

Your monitor is probably fine either way. Just recognize what kind of port it needs and make sure whatever computer/graphics card you get supports that connector or that you can get a convertor for it. VGA to HDMI is cheap, simple and works.

Thanks for that.

I"m not saying that "price is no object". But the $2k neighborhood for a computer that I expect to last a while is not out of range.

What I'm looking for is something that can handle "almost" anything I throw at it. I'm not a gamer and don't expect that I ever will be, and I may or may not run a flight sim, but I want to be able to if I later decide to. If I decide to do that, then I will acquire yoke/throttle/rudder equipment. Also, I am sure I will be making occasional use of Photo Shop and MS Publisher. I don't want to be in the position in two years that I can't do what I want because I saved a few bucks on my computer a few years ago.

My monitor is relatively new. It might be two years old and has VGA, HDMI and DVI connectors. And if I find it is insufficient at some point, it is the easiest piece to upgrade.

 

[murphey]

Bear in mind that NUC takes SO-DIMM rather than desktop DIMM. Also, some NUC can take a 2.5" drive and some cannot.

crucial.com
and
ifixit.com (not for the faint of heart)

memory and ssd for just about anything. I just put 32gb so-dimm in a new mac mini (mac version of thr NUC) with very little aggravation.

 

[schmookeeg]

Thanks for that.

I"m not saying that "price is no object". But the $2k neighborhood for a computer that I expect to last a while is not out of range.

What I'm looking for is something that can handle "almost" anything I throw at it.

I've been pleased with the dell XPS towers for the "don't care much, will do most things i wanna do" mission. They are usually around a grand. The current crop at costco all have the nvidia 1660 video card which I understand is junk. Stretch for the 20x0 series or wait for this summer season and get a 30x0 card.

They go on special a lot. Dell outlet is a reasonable place to skulk about and wait for value. Of course they're not on special right now.

https://www.dell.com/en-us/dfh/shop/dell-refurbished/cp/outlet-deals-dfh?~ck=mn

The XPS also don't look like an exploded box of ravewear like most other "gaming" rigs, so are reasonable things to find on an adult's desk without inviting comment.

$0.02

 

[TCABM]

I...in the past I have tried to load various graphics programs (photo shop) or flight simulators and they just couldn't cut the mustard...

Graphics are probably the limfac.

What sim and graphics software do you want to work reliably?

 

[asicer]

What I'm looking for is something that can handle "almost" anything I throw at it. I'm not a gamer and don't expect that I ever will be, and I may or may not run a flight sim, but I want to be able to if I later decide to.

That rules out a NUC.

You want a tower of some sort. That way you can start off with the integrated GPU and then add a discrete GPU later if need be. The Radeon integrated into AMD CPU's (Vega) is a bit better than Intel's (Iris), if you want a higher starting point.

It might be two years old and has VGA, HDMI and DVI connectors.

If it has VGA and DVI then it might be older than two years old. Or a low end monitor.

 

[JOhnH]

That rules out a NUC.

You want a tower of some sort. That way you can start off with the integrated GPU and then add a discrete GPU later if need be. The Radeon integrated into AMD CPU's (Vega) is a bit better than Intel's (Iris), if you want a higher starting point.


If it has VGA and DVI then it might be older than two years old. Or a low end monitor.

You're probably right; it is probably older than 2 years. Time flies, even though last year seemed to take forever.

 

[Ghery]

BTW, NUC stands for Next Unit of Computing. Mine is 6 years old, but still works fine for net browsing next to my ham radio station. A bit long in the tooth for serious work now, but...

And it has an SSD (256 GByte, IIRC) and an spinning media 1 TByte drive. Needless to say, overkill for its current usage.

 

[IK04]

I have been favoring itty bitty "Compact" computers lately. They have the same performance of the big, expensive systems have built recently and you can fit several of them on a desk without taking up all your work space.

Unless you are a gaming nerd, big box PCs are dinosaurs...

 

[JOhnH]

I walked into my local computer shop yesterday morning. They had prebuilt a bunch of computers for Christmas and they had one left over. They don't sell packaged systems; they build every one they sell).
I used to deal with this shop all the time when I owned my business. They only use professional grade parts and have always offered outstanding follow up service.

Windows 10 home.
i7 Processor
16GB ram (it had two 8's but I asked them to swap with one 16 because the system only had two slots.
500GB SSD.
GEForce GTX graphics card.

$990 (+tax) plus they offered to transfer all my old data for free. I picked it up yesterday afternoon and it runs like a scalded dog, and hasn't frozen up on me once, like my old one has been doing several times a day.

 

[Bob Noel]

I walked into my local computer shop yesterday morning. ....They only use professional grade parts and have always offered outstanding follow up service.

Sounds like you found a good place to get something to meet your needs (even though you couldn't pay me enough to get/use a windows machine...)

 

[JOhnH]

Sounds like you found a good place to get something to meet your needs (even though you couldn't pay me enough to get/use a windows machine...)

Don't know how old you are, but when you are pushing 70, think about whether you would want to switch away from an architecture you have been using for over 30 years.

The one time I tried to use a MAC was about 15 years ago, in an FBO. The system crashed mid flight-plan and would not reboot. Just as well. I couldn't figure out their flight planning software anyway.

Can you imagine how much a MAC would cost if they didn't have to compete with MS? And you couldn't pay me enough to get/use any flavor of Unix.

 

[Bob Noel]

Don't know how old you are, but when you are pushing 70, think about whether you would want to switch away from an architecture you have been using for over 30 years.

The one time I tried to use a MAC was about 15 years ago, in an FBO. The system crashed mid flight-plan and would not reboot. Just as well. I couldn't figure out their flight planning software anyway.

Can you imagine how much a MAC would cost if they didn't have to compete with MS? And you couldn't pay me enough to get/use any flavor of Unix.

Definitely use the OS/software you are comfortable with, what you like.

<no need to talk about quality vs price...>

 

[murphey]

Don't know how old you are, but when you are pushing 70, think about whether you would want to switch away from an architecture you have been using for over 30 years.

The one time I tried to use a MAC was about 15 years ago, in an FBO. The system crashed mid flight-plan and would not reboot. Just as well. I couldn't figure out their flight planning software anyway.

Can you imagine how much a MAC would cost if they didn't have to compete with MS? And you couldn't pay me enough to get/use any flavor of Unix.

And yet, an early version of MSFS was on the Mac. Wireframe only.

I use whatever computer I’m paid to use.

 

[JOhnH]

And yet, an early version of MSFS was on the Mac. Wireframe only.

I use whatever computer I’m paid to use.

That's true. For 5 years, I was paid to use MS DOS on '386 machines. Then migrated to MS Windows.
Then when I opened my business the best software for the job only ran on Windows, so for the next 20 years, that's what I used.
When I sold my business, I kept a couple of Windows machines. That included the system that just "retired" on me.

But my main software experience when I was in the corporate world (for > 20 years) was VAX/VMS, Then Alpha/VMS. When those started to fade I switched to Unix and I hated every day of it. It was sort of like being forced to switch from Christianity to Islam (or vice versa).

 

[bflynn]

Sounds like a nice setup. What model GTX? They're mostly good, but the old 5 series (550, 576, etc) are not like the 10 series (1060, 1070, 1080) are not like the 30 series.

As long as the i7 is a relatively new release, it should be good. Intel got tired of coming up with new names, so now you just have an "i3/5/7/9" of each generation and there's little way to tell them apart. I think we're up to the 10th generation now with the 11th gen release expected soon.

I like the price, but you said it was the last one

 

[JOhnH]

Sounds like a nice setup. What model GTX? They're mostly good, but the old 5 series (550, 576, etc) are not like the 10 series (1060, 1070, 1080) are not like the 30 series.

As long as the i7 is a relatively new release, it should be good. Intel got tired of coming up with new names, so now you just have an "i3/5/7/9" of each generation and there's little way to tell them apart. I think we're up to the 10th generation now with the 11th gen release expected soon.

I like the price, but you said it was the last one

It's a GTX 1650 Super. They told me it was good, but not top of the line, which is fine for me. I'll probably never really even need it. If I ever buy a flight sim, I will probably get a system to match.
But my system screams compared to my old system (Celeron J1900)

 

[asicer]

16GB ram (it had two 8's but I asked them to swap with one 16 because the system only had two slots.

They probably did 2x8GB modules in order to allow it to run in 2-channel memory mode. There's a bit of a slow-down by constraining it to 1 channel but unless you are really pushing it I doubt you'll notice.

$990 (+tax) plus they offered to transfer all my old data for free. I picked it up yesterday afternoon and it runs like a scalded dog, and hasn't frozen up on me once, like my old one has been doing several times a day.

Cool, glad it worked out.

Intel got tired of coming up with new names, so now you just have an "i3/5/7/9" of each generation and there's little way to tell them apart.

Intel names their Core series iX-YYZZZ where X= market tier (i.e. i3/i5/i7/i9), YY= generation and ZZZ=sub-tier. For example:
i5-10500 = mid-tier, 10th generation, faster than a i5-10400 but slower than a i5-10600.

I think we're up to the 10th generation now with the 11th gen release expected soon.

You are correct, but... since Intel's process has been stuck at 14nm for the past 6 years the current 10th gen and upcoming 11th gen really isn't all that much better than the 6th generation (Skylake).

 

[murphey]

That's true. For 5 years, I was paid to use MS DOS on '386 machines. Then migrated to MS Windows.
Then when I opened my business the best software for the job only ran on Windows, so for the next 20 years, that's what I used.
When I sold my business, I kept a couple of Windows machines. That included the system that just "retired" on me.

But my main software experience when I was in the corporate world (for > 20 years) was VAX/VMS, Then Alpha/VMS. When those started to fade I switched to Unix and I hated every day of it. It was sort of like being forced to switch from Christianity to Islam (or vice versa).

I still have a couple of my VAX manuals. I really like the bright orange binders.

 

[murphey]

It's a GTX 1650 Super. They told me it was good, but not top of the line, which is fine for me. I'll probably never really even need it. If I ever buy a flight sim, I will probably get a system to match.
But my system screams compared to my old system (Celeron J1900)

Both Xplane 10 and XPlane 9 are still available on the Laminar Research website. If all you want is to practice IFR, that's really all you need along with a middlin' computer.

 

[Let'sgoflying!]

Don't buy anything from Dell.
As soon as it's out the door any problems are YOURS even if you buy their warranty.

 

[bflynn]

It's a GTX 1650 Super. They told me it was good, but not top of the line, which is fine for me. I'll probably never really even need it. If I ever buy a flight sim, I will probably get a system to match.
But my system screams compared to my old system (Celeron J1900)

I think it's a solid system - plenty capable for XPlane 11 and I think it's good for FS2020 even. I know you said that wasn't your goal, but I think you're there and should be good for web/email/office for the next 10 years.

 

[weilke]

Oh Microsoft. Just spent my evening on a update in our production software. The vendor did the server end, I just have to go 'hands-on' with all the workstations and update the clients to the current version. Six workstations allowed the client upgrade, one didn't. Required a manually changing a registry key....

I was going to suggest: Go to the local computer store and have the geek who works there put something together for you. Sounds like that is what you did.

It is amazing what performance you can buy for little money these days. I built a compact form factor (mini-itx) workstation for my day job. In terms of performance, it blows the $12000 Dells the hospital bought a year earlier out of the water.

 

[flyingron]

Don't buy anything from Dell.
As soon as it's out the door any problems are YOURS even if you buy their warranty.

Don't I know that. They sold an entire line of all in ones (primarily through Costco) that had defective hard drives. Everybody was complaining about this and the cost to send out a new hard drive would have been negligible, but Dell stonewalled the issue every step of the way.

 

[Palmpilot]

That's a pity. It seemed like they were a good supplier twenty years ago.

 

[Sac Arrow]

That's a pity. It seemed like they were a good supplier twenty years ago.

Twenty years ago was when I stopped buying Dell desktops. The quality went to crap, with flimsy plastic cases that have trim falling off, and sometimes they would arrive with power connectors or drive connectors not even attached. And then they started having longer and longer lead times, and then started cancelling orders without even telling me. Switched to HP workstations.

I'm sure they've improved since then. They would have had to, in order to still be around. I will say though that on the server side, things were very different. I did order a Dell RAID server, and it was one solid machine. I stupidly did something that rendered it unbootable, and their customer support stayed with me for hours to find a workaround.

 

[Ghery]

That's true. For 5 years, I was paid to use MS DOS on '386 machines. Then migrated to MS Windows.
Then when I opened my business the best software for the job only ran on Windows, so for the next 20 years, that's what I used.
When I sold my business, I kept a couple of Windows machines. That included the system that just "retired" on me.

But my main software experience when I was in the corporate world (for > 20 years) was VAX/VMS, Then Alpha/VMS. When those started to fade I switched to Unix and I hated every day of it. It was sort of like being forced to switch from Christianity to Islam (or vice versa).

I remember living on a VAX 11/780 running VMS over 35 years ago when I worked for Martin-Marietta Denver Aerospace. I loved that OS. Now, the DEC service engineer did learn to let me back up everything I owned to tape before letting him work on a disc drive when he forgot to swap packs once before running his diagnostics and wiped out a weeks worth of programming that I had been working on. Oh, and did you know that if you rubbed your hand across the air vents on a VT-100 terminal it sounded just like a head crash? We nailed him one day with that when he had his head buried in the back of a drive cabinet.

Don't buy anything from Dell.
As soon as it's out the door any problems are YOURS even if you buy their warranty.

That hasn't been my experience so far. Now, I would like the combination of Dell and MS to quit getting a serious case of the slows every week or two. A reboot fixes it, but...