Pattern Madness

murphey said:
Neither....I don't know if breakfast flight is on the schedule (7:30 am AIS) with the picnic, I'll check and let you know. Picnic at Ted Lehman's hangar on the east side - those big green box hangars. Just wander and look for all the cars and people. More info later.
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OK :)
 
Sterotyping

So, when I am flying in my Tailwind I presumably an OK pilot, but when I fly my RV I become some sort of idiot on wings?? And if I hire a 4 seater presumably my flying standard improves??

Its strange because where I usually fly I see all sorts of bad piloting techniques in all sorts of different aircraft. An instructor who rolls his Robin crossing the centre line of the active runway. Another Robin pilot who joined overhead and who was completely unaware of me coming downwind, missed two radio calls to alert him to my presence, and only spotted me in my RV9 when he turned base.

Even though there was sufficient separation for me to land ahead of his as his patter width was actually a cross country flight, while I was following the correct pattern, he had the gall to accuse me of poor piloting skills on the radio.

What is it with you guys stereotyping RV pilots, is it jealousy? The aeroplane type is irrelevent, its the pilot that is the problem. If I followed your line of thinking I would have have to hate Robin pilots.

BTW car drivers.........aircraft pilots. So uncool to call pilots drivers!!!
 
Lots of sand filled anatomical crevasses in here.
 
I've got a couple a RV experiences to add to the fray.

The first is a flight of 3 RVs coming into GXY. They politely announced 10 miles out that they were inbound. Entered the pattern for the active runway using the common method (45 degrees to the downwind) and landed without endangering or angering anyone. Hard to believe, but there must be 3 considerate and safe RV pilots out there.

The second was a little less out of the ordinary. We were turning left base for RW 33 (the proper pattern direction), and there straight in front of us was an RV turning right base for RW 33 :yikes:. He called turning left base for 33. We pointed out that he was in fact flying a right pattern, but that just seemed to confuse him. We then bailed out of the pattern until he'd cleared the runway. This wasn't a case of hubris so much a senility, I think.
 
murphey said:
Great. Dandy. Now give me $25K so I can upgrade avionics & instruments in my cherokee. Some of us (probably most of us) don't have $80K to spend on an airplane.
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$25k don't get you much in a certified aircraft.

but for less than $4k, you can get Highway-In-the-Sky in an experimental panel.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=RvjTQ_zAmtM


5600-711.png
 
COFlyBoy said:
The first is a flight of 3 RVs coming into GXY. They politely announced 10 miles out that they were inbound. Entered the pattern for the active runway using the common method (45 degrees to the downwind) and landed without endangering or angering anyone. Hard to believe, but there must be 3 considerate and safe RV pilots out there.
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It was because of the smell at Greeley you know. Get down, get out, get away!




:D
 
RoscoeT said:
Read post #'s 83 and 107 with comprehension. It's not "showboating". You keep trying to link this weird upwind/downwind incident to a pattern of dangerous behavior. You say it's not about the "overhead approach" yet you mentioned it in your first post, and have not described anything else, so if it's not the overhead approach, what is it specifically? So since you still haven't said why you think the overhead approach is dangerous, I'll assume you do not, and that this "showboating" behavior is related to other unspecified incidents that you are not describing. Your story about the upwind-into-downwind guy is inexplicable. You think he deliberately flew right into downwind traffic? Is this how you think the overhead approach generally goes? Why didn't he land then? Yes, there is very small percentage of RV pilots who give the other 99% a bad rap. You'll find that anywhere, with anything.
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What part of this post are you not understanding?

So I'm flying with a new student -- hour 6 -- and we're doing the normal pattern entry. on a 45, closer to the upwind end of the runway, but fairly close, etc. Winds are light but favoring 28, all traffic that has landed in past 45 minutes has landed on 28.

He announced 3 miles from the field, entering the pattern, downwind for 28. I can hear other chatter on the radio but no airport ID -- just typical "Yeah, Jerry, I'm over here.." stupidity.

We're nearly abeam the numbers when I see a glint of silver ahead -- airplane, our altitude, right at us.

"My airplane."

I do a right turn out of the pattern (C150, so a right turn lets me keep an eye on him), and watch as hero does a steep 360 then heads for the upwind side. I also hear , "Yeah, uhh, gonna head over to upwind side.."

Again, no identifier, no nuthin.

I get us back on downwind and see it's a silver RV.
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Stop deflecting, dissembling, and diverting and deal with the issue that appears to be common in your ranks.

Or continue to deflect and defend until Dr Bruce tells you "I told you so."
 
Me:
Great. Dandy. Now give me $25K so I can upgrade avionics & instruments in my cherokee. Some of us (probably most of us) don't have $80K to spend on an airplane.

You:
Panew said:
$25k don't get you much in a certified aircraft.
but for less than $4k, you can get Highway-In-the-Sky in an experimental panel.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=RvjTQ_zAmtM


5600-711.png
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Fantastic! Now, you buy my cherokee (current worth about $35K) and I'll spend an additional $45K to buy an experimental. Do you see both a logic and economic problem here?

I really don't care what you can put into an experimental and I thought I was very clear that
1. I don't have an experimental,
2. cannot afford the $80K+ for an experimental and
3. cannot afford the $25K+ for the avionics for my certified airplane.

Until all this crap started, I had no opinions one way or another as to the attitude of experimentals or any other pilot group other than we're all in this together. This thread has definitely changed my opinion and it's not for the better.
 
dmccormack said:
What part of this post are you not understanding?
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Since you're not very articulate, and you simply keep repeating the "airplane, our altitude, right at us", incident, all I can take away from this is that you feel the "issue that appears to be common in your ranks" is that RVs are constantly flying at your altitude right at you. You could have saved a lot of confusion in this thread by stating that you don't like how RV guys are always playing chicken with you. Yep, now that you mention it, this is a bit of a hobby among RVers..."let's see who breaks off first". ;) Flying upwind into downwind traffic is of course the most efficient way to acquire your target. That's probably why he didn't land. He had his bit of fun with you, and then made the rounds at the other airports in the area. ;)
 
RoscoeT said:
Since you're not very articulate, and you simply keep repeating the "airplane, our altitude, right at us", incident, all I can take away from this is that you feel the "issue that appears to be common in your ranks" is that RVs are constantly flying at your altitude right at you. You could have saved a lot of confusion in this thread by stating that you don't like how RV guys are always playing chicken with you. Yep, now that you mention it, this is a bit of a hobby among RVers..."let's see who breaks off first". ;) Flying upwind into downwind traffic is of course the most efficient way to acquire your target. That's probably why he didn't land. He had his bit of fun with you, and then made the rounds at the other airports in the area. ;)
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You're right. My mastery of English is questionable. I'll enroll in ESL classes immediately.


:rolleyes:





Anyway, clearly you think it's fine to fly upwind on a left downwind at pattern altitude.

I'll be sure to keep that in mind.
 
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dmccormack said:
What part of this post are you not understanding?



Stop deflecting, dissembling, and diverting and deal with the issue that appears to be common in your ranks.

Or continue to deflect and defend until Dr Bruce tells you "I told you so."
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you sound frustrated.
 
dmccormack said:
Anyway, clearly you think it's fine to fly upwind on a left downwind at pattern altitude.

I'll be sure to keep that in mind.
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LOL, yeah I dont' see a THING wrong with it. I do it all the time myself...it's kinda like airborne slalom...those sumbitches on downwind never even blink! :D
 
Panew said:
you sound frustrated.
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There seems to be three common responses:


  1. No way! You're wrong! We're awesome! You're not!
  2. You can't blame everyone for one idiot
  3. There seems to be a problem and we're trying to police our own -- but it ain't easy.

Reasonable folks are in the 3 camp. The rest, oh well....
 
dmccormack said:
Nope, impossible: He didn't land at the airport (at least while I was there), and had black numbers on polished Aluminum finish --that's all I could see (and the US Roundel).
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you don't even know if that's an RV.

if you ever got his tail, make sure you post it here:
http://www.vansairforce.net/

I'd like to see the guy get chew up by his peers.
 
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Panew said:
you don't even know if that's an RV.

if you ever got his tail, make sure you post it here:
http://www.vansairforce.net/

I'd like to see the guy get chew up by his peers.
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No, I know an RV when I see it (Rostraver is a big RV hangout and build site south of Pittsburgh).

This one was parked on the ramp before we left (but I wasn't prescient enough to know it would have an impact on my life). And I saw it broadside very close.
 
dmccormack said:
No, I know an RV when I see it (Rostraver is a big RV hangout and build site south of Pittsburgh).

This one was parked on the ramp before we left (but I wasn't prescient enough to know it would have an impact on my life). And I saw it broadside very close.
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if he was parked at the ramp before you left, then you could get the tail from the FBO.

don't just sit here and whine, go get the tail and post it.
 
RoscoeT said:
BTW, here are some responses from the Vans Airforce site on this subject. But I guess a more apt name for the thread would be, "Top 10 reasons we like to fly downwind on the upwind side". ;)

http://www.vansairforce.com/community/showthread.php?t=75392
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I think it's interesting that there's an entire site devoted to RV safety which discusses some of the very things brought up in this thread.

It's also interesting that the broad brush "hate" term is used in its full, infantile, simpleton glory.
 
Panew said:
if he was parked at the ramp before you left, then you could get the tail from the FBO.

don't just sit here and whine, go get the tail and post it.
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There was a fly in scheduled the next day, and there were MANY aircraft on the ramp.

I know the "FBO" -- it's one guy -- he doesn't write down every tail number that ties down.

I also know the airport owner -- so?

Posting an event on a web board <> "whining"

It's more a warning -- be careful out there, idiots abound.
 
dmccormack said:
It's also interesting that the broad brush "hate" term is used in its full, infantile, simpleton glory.
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Some folks there objected to the term, but if you read, the OP clarified the intent, which you may not appreciate unless you're familiar with urban slang. But anyway, pot kettle black.
 
dmccormack said:
I think it's interesting that there's an entire site devoted to RV safety which discusses some of the very things brought up in this thread.

It's also interesting that the broad brush "hate" term is used in its full, infantile, simpleton glory.
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that's my exact point --- you have mistaken an idiot as an RVer.
 
Wow what a thread. I know what you're all thinking, well most. by this guys identifier he's going to support the rv clan. Nope nada. In fact there are a bunch of rv's at my home airport and not one of them does an overhead break. But there is a group of pilots that do. You want to know what airplane they fly, well I'll tell ya. Stearman. Yes I don't like them. seems they have to take over the airport when they come in. Always with a break. They fly in formation or single, it's always a break. We have a tower and everybody ends up moving to the other runway, two runways in parrallel so these pilots can have there break. Like others have mentioned, an appropriate break is 1500ft agl. Not these guys, there is many times they doing the break at 500ft agl. There show boating, and don't forget the smoke out the back side, very important for that as well. So please just because a person has the RV doesn't mean he is going to act a certain way. I feel if a group of pilots are together anything is possible. I for one always straighten up and fly right so to speak if there is anybody else in the pattern. In fact I'll will give in to anybody else in the pattern, mainly because I know I'm much faster and can menauver better than most.


It's very easy for something to happen and just jump all over a certain group and that's wrong also. Things happen and sometimes there is no rime or reason to it, but it happens. I ask that people just calm down and if presented with the same situation I hope that you would just give the offenders lots of room and move on. Things can and will happen if we let them.
 
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C'mon Dan, I am an RV guy. Yes I came over from a post at VAF. Yes I am ex-military. (I see you are too). Yes my RV is painted military. I even fly some of the same fields as you (KVVS KFWQ). Yes I am actively involved in the RV Safety "movement". Yes we can all improve our flying professionalism. Yes there are RV chuckleheads - There are lots of chuckleheads out there, including some CFI's. Yes I do breaks at GA fields. Yes I do them considerately and safely. And sometimes I don't do one when I think it not prudent. Yes some guys don't know how to fly a correct break and fly them anyway. Yes it is dangerous to fly upwind against downwind traffic.........

But I find it interesting that you left this out of your post when you just quoted yourself -

"Now -- someone please tell me -- why, oh why is it always these blasted RV drivers who feel compelled to do overhead breaks over public use, busy GA fields?.......the complete disdain for other traffic seems unique among these wannabes".

I suspect that is what has raised some animosity. There is plenty of unsafe, inconsiderate, plain dumb, irritating and dangerous flying being perpetuated out here by lots of folks, flying lots of airplanes. It was you who fingered RV guys.

PS, I consider one form of "pattern Madness" to be flying a downwind 1.5 miles from the runway.
 
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RoscoeT said:
There is a practical aspect of flying an overhead break in an RV. They are very clean and fast, and with a FP prop, they take a little time to slow down to pattern speed. The break is an uncomplicated way to scrub speed and get the plane on the ground quickly, with no disruption if properly done.

This thread seems to involve more bandwagon flaming based on isolated anecdotes and hearsay than it does any real up-close experience.
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People fly overhead breaks because they are fun and look impressive to people on the ground. There are lots of GA planes that take longer to slow down than an RV does and you don't see them doing overhead breaks with other planes in the circuit.

One of the nice things about RV's IS their wide speed range and a fellow CAN enter the pattern and putt along quite nicely with the other traffic but it doesn't look as cool. Getting your plane slowed down and spacing yourself in the circuit is normal good airmanship. Telling people that RV's are different and require overhead breaks is more along the line of "hearsay" or myth.
 
RV Guy said:
But I find it interesting that you left this out of your post when you just quoted yourself -

"Now -- someone please tell me -- why, oh why is it always these blasted RV drivers who feel compelled to do overhead breaks over public use, busy GA fields?.......the complete disdain for other traffic seems unique among these wannabes".

I suspect that is what has raised some animosity. There is plenty of unsafe, inconsiderate, plain dumb, irritating and dangerous flying being perpetuated out here by lots of folks, flying lots of airplanes. It was you who fingered RV guys.
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I was annoyed by that RV guy -- it was unfair to paint all with a broad brush -- my apologies.


RV Guy said:
PS, I consider one form of "pattern Madness" to be flying a downwind 1.5 miles from the runway.
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Sorry, but a student flying his first pattern (with assistance) might not fly as tight as you, but a mile and a half is still well within a reasonable distance.
 
dmccormack said:
That idiot was flying an RV.
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That's a better way of putting it. Rather than lumping all RV pilots into a group.

Idiot crawl into cockpits every single day..

I watched a guy land in a single Aero Commander, get off the runway, shut her down, get out, take a leak - yes, right there on the taxi way - crawl back into his plane, start it up and taxi over to the air carrier portion of the ramp and promptly shut down square in the middle of the "air carrier box."

Rampers told him he had to move. He started it back up, flooded it, caught it on fire, continued the taxi (on fire), park, shut it down and come waltzing into the FBO like nothing happened.

Went to the restroom, again, only this time in the proper location, get some fuel and blast off to Florida.

Idiots.
Everywhere.
In everything.
 
denverpilot said:
You can smell the missed approach point at GXY most days... ;)
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Ha, yeah I know. :) Too funny. That's why I used 18V for fuel instead, but the restaurant at GXY used to be pretty good.

We had a lot of RV's at Front Range, but I never saw them abusing their aerobatic nature in the pattern. One did bust the Denver Class B when it the tower went in, and they modified the airspace.

I really, really like the RV's and want to get one someday, just don't want to build it!
 
Dan, I guess I can accept the apology, as difficult as that is after 8 pages and 32 posts of being called "dissembling", an "apologist", a "wannabe" "pretending to still be in" etc etc etc. I accept only because of my expansive "view of the range of human interchange".

There are lots of bad pilots out there. Consider yourself lucky that your closest encounter was one stupid RV guy (I've been shot at and missed by many, several much dumber, faster and bigger than that - and incidently, none yet in an RV).

We are all working hard to get better. We don't consider derisive dialogue (including pictures of winged rec vehicles coming from fellow pilots) to be particularly helpful in our efforts, Thank you.

Keep your headup and please work your students in a bit closer as soon as possible. We don't want to re-enforce any bad habits. Thanks again
 
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OK, I think I've learned that RV pilots/owners/builders are a fervent and easily offended bunch who never fly the overhead.
Oops stereotype.
Wait, I think 8 pages of posts qualifies as reasonable proof of that.

Separate topic, I really want to fly the overhead. I work right next to Buckley AFB near Denver and see the 16s doing it all the time. I've also seen a 16 come off the runway and roll to about 135 degrees to head back to the east for climbout.
 
Imagine the uproar if all the Cessna 310 owners always showed up in formation and did overhead breaks.

Point being, the RV drivers don't need to do this at all. It's a stereotype well-deserved.

Many warbirds and others might be able to claim their speeds don't mix well with other traffic, but RVs fly Cessna speeds, just fine.

And if that excuse held any water, all the light twins and bizjets would "need" to do it, too.

I'm not saying they shouldn't, I'm just pointing out the obvious ... It's not necessary.

Like the doc says, behave around airports, or someone will make us all behave. Formation breaks serve a purpose. Single-ship breaks into a busy pattern, really don't.
 
Ken Kopp said:
First of all -

If YOU do not know what an Overhead Break is don't blame the other guy - read the AIM! It is there for everyone who enjoys mastering the art of flying to read.
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Ken Kopp said:
If you are uncomfortable ask the RV pilot to take the opposite pattern - or you take the opposite pattern and deconflict on the base turn.
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If YOU do not know what the regulations are regarding turns in the pattern - read 14 CFR Part 91, specifically §91.126 and §91.127. Unlike the AIM, compliance is mandatory.
 
Ron Levy said:
No, and I don't think the FAA ever did recommend only one turn in the direction of the pattern. Even with the recommended 45-downwind entry, you must make two turns in that direction (base and final).

I looked for a reference but to no avail I don't know why I had that 1 turn was advised.. Ya live ya learn what doesn't kill ya should make ya smarter

I know of no AC which recommends only one turn in the direction of the traffic pattern.

I couldn't find one of them either.

I agree, but an overhead entry is not inherently unsafe, and is an FAA-recognized procedure.

However, arriving in the pattern by flying up the downwind leg and then maneuvering from there is definitely contrary to every FAA recommendation I've ever seen. But since that's not an "upwind entry" or "overhead entry," it's relevant only to Dan's original complaint (which as far as that went was vaild), not the slew of posts regarding formations, RV's, and overhead entries which followed.
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AS I read the savy aviator http://www.swaviator.com/html/issueam01/basicsam01.html I see no requirement to do any turns in the pattern.

You are pretty much free to do any thing that is safe.

I don't fly far from home these days I have no need to, but I have favorite entries for the airports I do go to, Darrington is in a canyon that pretty much a straight in, Concrete is also in a valley, fly east up the valley, stay as close to the mountains that you are comfortable with and make a "U" turn and land to the west, Oak Harbor most any thing works that keeps you out of NUW's airspace, because it is pretty much deserted these days. Bayview Skaget Regional has a mix of bizjet and local traffic and I'm using 22/04 and watching very close as the #28 numbers go under the nose.

Do what fits the area best.. It's all legal.
 
BellyUpFish said:
Who is claiming RV pilots *need* to do this?
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NEED ??? I don't believe any one said they need to.. it's just a matter of they have their Dumas's too.

Don't we all?
 
kkoran said:
If YOU do not know what the regulations are regarding turns in the pattern - read 14 CFR Part 91, specifically §91.126 and §91.127. Unlike the AIM, compliance is mandatory.
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neither of those regs require you to make a turn..

Which way would you like to turn here
 

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