Pattern Madness

Ken Kopp said:
ATC knows what it is - why don't you? ... If you are flying in the pattern and hear someone calling for the Overhead and you are uncomfortable you can simply ask for clarification - that other guys is just as motivated as you are to avoid the mid-air.
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That said, when leading a formation into the break at a nontowered civilian field, I usally phrase it as "three miles east for an upwind entry Runway 27" rather than "three mile initial for the break, Runway 27," and an "upwind entry breaking to the left downwind" rather than "overhead entry." Saves a lot of confusion with the folks who were never taught what those other words mean, which seems to be the majority of light plane pilots.
 
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I wrote my post as a general response to all those posted previous to mine and was not intended for any one individual. There are several posts about OH Break entries and several about how RV pilots suck...
 
Ron Levy said:
That said, when leading a formation into the break at a nontowered civilian field, I usally phrase it as "three miles east for an upwind entry Runway 27" rather than "three mile initial for the break, Runway 27), and an "upwind entry breaking to the downwind" rather than "overhead entry." Saves a lot of confusion with the folks who were never taught what those other words mean, which seems to be the majority of light plane pilots.
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This also works when guys are shooting practice approaches. "We are GIFON inbound" or "holding at CETAB."

There are lots of people who have no idea what GIFON and CETAB are.

While we're talking about wreckless and crazy pilots, I'd like to throw Beech Baron pilots under the bus.

I was in the hangar a few weeks ago and watched a Baron start up, taxi around the ramp, cross an active runway, only to get there and leave without ever making a single radio call other than "Baron XYZ departing 29."
 
Totally agree with you Ron!

Communication is the key. If I approach an uncontrolled field and do not hear or see anyone in the pattern I'll use the standard initial and break entry calls (more for my own proficiency). If the pattern is busy I'll break it down in plain english step by step and simply sequence into the downwind leg.

In fact I cannot think of a safer place to be in the pattern than over the runway at pattern altitude. Everyone else is on downwind displaced either left or right or below you on, base or final. If the downwind is busy, simply delay the break turn until interval is established. I've had more close calls entering the 45 than the break, especially with departing aircraft.

I wonder how wide a downwind the original poster was flying? At some point it ceases to be a downwind as is really just flying around...
 
dmccormack said:
It bother me a bit when I see people 10-20 years older than me still wearing the chip on the shoulder.

I guess I'm surprised by the time folks hit 50 they haven't achieved some measure of maturity that doesn't require constant outside validation.
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You mean they're not all in elected office? :dunno:
 
dmccormack said:
The original post had nothing to do with overhead breaks (they were included later).
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Maybe you need to re-read your original post:

"Now -- someone please tell me -- why, oh why is it always these blasted RV drivers who feel compelled to do overhead breaks over public use, busy GA fields?"

"Also, the non-standard radio use, the complete disdain for other traffic seems unique among these wannabes. What am I missing?"

I should ask you what we're missing, since you went off on this immature rant about RV pilots based on one person's inexplicable actions.

dmccormack said:
The RV pilot choose to fly opposite the left downwind at pattern altitude. There's no reason for this to happen, ever.
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No ****. What does this have to do with RVers in general? I haven't heard you say you've noticed others doing this. Still waiting for your further anecdotes to support your above insults.
 
Probably not the right place for this post, but I just learned of this website because of the post on Van's Air Force. Looks like a great place to hang out! Yes, I'm an RV-7A driver.

In an attempt to stay "on topic", I'll share that yesterday I saw the first overhead break at my home airport (Caldwell, Idaho) with a formation of 3 RV's. My preference would've been that they communicated more.

Other than that, I've seen a lot of boneheaded moves by all types of pilots flying pretty much everything. :D

But, as an effort to show that most RV guys are nice, I'll extend an offer to take anyone up who wants to go for a ride...just let me know if you're ever in my local area!
 
Ken Kopp said:
First of all -

If YOU do not know what an Overhead Break is don't blame the other guy - read the AIM! It is there for everyone who enjoys mastering the art of flying to read.

The Overhead break entry wasn't created to "look cool" it is in fact the most efficient and orderly way to sequence a formation flight into the pattern. The fact it does look cool is simply a by-product. If you don't know how to fly formation and do not understand then maybe you should go learn and not be so afraid of the unknown. Certainly there are times when this shouldn't be done and perhaps the original posters event was such an occasion but it is ridiculous to condemn a published and approved procedure. I use the OH break entry almost exclusively and do so at tower controlled fields in both Class D and C airspace. ATC knows what it is - why don't you? I also use it at uncontrolled fields as well if it makes sense based upon traffic, and my position. I think you'll find most of us work it this way. If you are a CFI and you do not know this procedure get back in the books! If you are flying in the pattern and hear someone calling for the Overhead and you are uncomfortable you can simply ask for clarification - that other guys is just as motivated as you are to avoid the mid-air. Please remember not all planes are the same - Your C152 has a glide ratio significantly higher than most RVs making that huge training pattern less than optimum for an RV should an engine failure occur. Most RV pilots would like to stay tucked in close so they can assure a safe gliding recovery to the runway (wouldn't you). If you are with a student and extend way way upwind don't be alarmed if the faster less glide friendly RV would like to stay closer to the runway and hopefully some good radio comms will help resolve it (from both of you). The typical RV can fly two passes in the time a C-152 does during a typical student training flight. If you are uncomfortable ask the RV pilot to take the opposite pattern - or you take the opposite pattern and deconflict on the base turn.

Be sure the guys you are flaming are actually breaking regs before you slam them. If you are so comfortable in the way you fly at the location you fly you've forgotten there are often more ways to skin a cat.. it is YOUR problem and not the other guy. If anyone breaks a reg and you feel it was unsafe you have an obligation to try to contact that pilot or the authorities. If on the other hand the RV drivers you hate so much just don't do it like you do it but are flying legal then relax and maybe learn something new. I can almost guarantee if you stopped to talk to an RV pilot in the air or ground you'll find them to be some of the most friendly and considerate people around.

It is probably true most RV pilots have an attitude - We spent long hours building a plane with tremendous performance and expended of $ and effort, we love to fly, we love to fly professionally and we love to share the experience with others. The attitude of most RV pilots is very positive, safe and beneficial to all of GA. Go find an RV pilot and ask him for a ride - it'll change your perspective and probably cost you about $80K cause you'll want one yourself!

Fly safe and try to be nice!

Ken
RV8 - FD38 Wellington FL
CFI/CFII (fixed and rotary), Navy Pilot, Test Pilot
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Who has the right of way and at what point is right of way determined when you are mixing a higher speed o/h approach with a slower student in the pattern? IE: a slow 152 45 degrees from the numbers ready for a base turn vs.a well over 100knot RV calling an overhead who could be there quickly enough for potential conflict. (asking because I want to learn, not to be argumentative).
 
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Ken Kopp said:
I wonder how wide a downwind the original poster was flying? At some point it ceases to be a downwind as is really just flying around...
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Based on several enforcement cases, the traffic pattern extends about 2-3 miles around the runway. So I figure if I'm within 2 miles, I'm in the pattern, and if I'm beyond 3 miles, I'm outside it, and between 2 and 3, I'm in no-man's land.
 
I realized something the last time I flew. Patterns at non-towered fields where the winds are really variable scare me a little.

I was making all the standard radio calls, and I wasnt hearing anyone else at that field. I wasnt sure which way to land, since the variable winds would favor one runway one minute and the other the next. Since it was shifting the way it was, and I didn't hear anyone else, I was a little nervous of encounting a pilot who decided to land on the opposite runway as me.

I ended up overflying the field, checking the windsock instead of the strictly using ASOS, and to try to observe any other planes in the pattern. The A/FD didn't mention a primary direction or anything like that, so I picked one and landed.

Nothing happened. But, Communication is key.
 
So who's going to start the BO drivers are all idiots thread so we can pump up the board numbers a bit more. ;):D
 
PeteJE said:
Who has the right of way and at what point is right of way determined when you are mixing a higher speed o/h approach with a slower student in the pattern? IE: a slow 152 45 degrees from the numbers ready for a base turn vs.a well over 100knot RV calling an overhead who could be there quickly enough for potential conflict
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If an RV is just breaking as a 152 is turning base, unless the 152 is flying an excessively large pattern or the RV pilot is a bozo, I don't think there's going to be a conflict, but if there is, here's what the relevant parts of the regulation say:
91.113 said:
(f) Overtaking. Each aircraft that is being overtaken has the right-of-way and each pilot of an overtaking aircraft shall alter course to the right to pass well clear.
(g) Landing. Aircraft, while on final approach to land or while landing, have the right-of-way over other aircraft in flight or operating on the surface, except that they shall not take advantage of this rule to force an aircraft off the runway surface which has already landed and is attempting to make way for an aircraft on final approach. When two or more aircraft are approaching an airport for the purpose of landing, the aircraft at the lower altitude has the right-of-way, but it shall not take advantage of this rule to cut in front of another which is on final approach to land or to overtake that aircraft.
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Based on that, I think that if the RV is breaking just as the 152 is turning base, the 152 has right-of-way to the runway, and it's up to the RV to space him/herself to land behind the 152 without any collision hazard. That might, if necessary, include going further upwind before breaking, or passing outside the 152 on downwind and/or going farther before turning base.
 
lostpilot28 said:
Probably not the right place for this post, but I just learned of this website because of the post on Van's Air Force. Looks like a great place to hang out! Yes, I'm an RV-7A driver.

In an attempt to stay "on topic", I'll share that yesterday I saw the first overhead break at my home airport (Caldwell, Idaho) with a formation of 3 RV's. My preference would've been that they communicated more.

Other than that, I've seen a lot of boneheaded moves by all types of pilots flying pretty much everything. :D

But, as an effort to show that most RV guys are nice, I'll extend an offer to take anyone up who wants to go for a ride...just let me know if you're ever in my local area!
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CAUTION:

I have never flown an RV, but I have heard that a "free" ride usually ended up costing $80k+.
 
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EppyGA said:
So who's going to start the BO drivers are all idiots thread so we can pump up the board numbers a bit more. ;):D
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A lot of those Bo drivers are kind of old and not too technically involved in Internet type of things. I think Dan needs to insult the Cirrus drivers and get them to join. Heck those guys are so in love with their panels instead of looking out the window they probably would log into PoA while they are flying the pattern to see if Dan is complaining about them too.


:D:D:D:D:D:D
 
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PeteJE said:
Who has the right of way and at what point is right of way determined when you are mixing a higher speed o/h approach with a slower student in the pattern? IE: a slow 152 45 degrees from the numbers ready for a base turn vs.a well over 100knot RV calling an overhead who could be there quickly enough for potential conflict. (asking because I want to learn, not to be argumentative).
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A proper overhead break is flown at 1,500'AGL to keep our of the way of those flying the pattern at 1,000'AGL to prevent collisions.

Every time I've been in a group if the pattern was busy (busy is more than a single CFI in a 150 doing TNG's) we would assess the situation and arrive accordingly.
 
BellyUpFish said:
This also works when guys are shooting practice approaches. "We are GIFON inbound" or "holding at CETAB."

There are lots of people who have no idea what GIFON and CETAB are.

While we're talking about wreckless and crazy pilots, I'd like to throw Beech Baron pilots under the bus.

I was in the hangar a few weeks ago and watched a Baron start up, taxi around the ramp, cross an active runway, only to get there and leave without ever making a single radio call other than "Baron XYZ departing 29."
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Look, we all know certain airplanes seem to draw certain personality types.

I know I'm lumped in with those "Slow, crazy, NORDOs" (even though I use a handheld that's as effective as any panel mount).

When I flew Bonanzas I'm sure I surprised a few folks when I didn't fly a 5 mile wide pattern and landed in less than 1000'

When I sit right seat in a C150 with a low-time student I'm "Flying way too wide and taking way too long"

Every bird has attached stereotypes. Sadly, for some the stereotypes apply because there's enough examples to reinforce and perpetuate.
 
Pete - I'm not sure an overall general legal "right of way" scenario exists to answer your question.

at uncontrolled airports pilots of all aircraft must maneuver to avoid unsafe conditions.

The pilot flying the OH break should ensure timing such that the break entry to downwind provides adequate interval with all other aircraft. We don't fly the OH entry like robots...you can break at the approach numbers if the downwind is empty or wait till mid field if a plane is about ready to turn base or even wait till the upwind numbers if a plane has just turned from crosswind to downwind. If I see a C-152 about to turn crosswind, I'll break at the approach numbers, be on the ground, tied down, and drinking a coke before he's on base. This is not "hot rod" it is efficiency in time, exposure and geography. My personal rule is to never break with an airplane inside a 60 degree line ahead or 45 degree line behind my wingtip. It is a visual maneuver requiring visual separation. period.

Once the aircraft are both on downwind the slower plane in front would have the right of way. The OH break entry bleeds the speed to arrive at whatever the pattern speed is for the particular airplane. It is no different for two dissimilar planes entering the pattern from the 45. One maybe faster than the other and will have to adjust the pattern as required to provide safe separation. The aircraft being overtaken has the right of way
 
BellyUpFish said:
A proper overhead break is flown at 1,500'AGL to keep our of the way of those flying the pattern at 1,000'AGL to prevent collisions.
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Only if the aircraft is large/fast enough to merit flying at the recommended 1500 AGL heavy/jet pattern altitude. Otherwise, they're diving into the downwind/base, or being a speed bump in front of the Lear which has to use that TPA, and those are never good.
 
dmccormack said:
pig-hot-air-balloon.jpg
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Forget the RVs, I want one of these.
 
I have been reading this thread with ever greater consternation and amusement -- especially since my next plane will probably be an RV. I personally think they are just about the coolest planes out there.

Here's my bottom line: I would LOVE to see a vast formation of RVs over Mustang Island every weekend, doing overhead breaks to land. Hell, I know people who would pay to see it.

As long as they have announced their intentions, the overhead break to land works fine. The key is communication, and for them to fit into what's going on in the pattern. Personally, if I was airborne and heard a "flight of ten" coming in, I would happily give way, and probably position myself so that I could observe their arrival.

Edit: This thread is especially poignant, given the decline of GA. There are literally hundreds (thousands?) of GA airports with NO traffic, hanging on by their fingernails, with managers who would kill to have any aircraft landing at all.
 
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RoscoeT said:
Maybe you need to re-read your original post:

"Now -- someone please tell me -- why, oh why is it always these blasted RV drivers who feel compelled to do overhead breaks over public use, busy GA fields?"

"Also, the non-standard radio use, the complete disdain for other traffic seems unique among these wannabes. What am I missing?"

I should ask you what we're missing, since you went off on this immature rant about RV pilots based on one person's inexplicable actions.

No ****. What does this have to do with RVers in general? I haven't heard you say you've noticed others doing this. Still waiting for your further anecdotes to support your above insults.
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I've seen this sort of non-standard, showboating behavior by RVs at other airports (I'll PM you identifiers, if you'd like) but this was the closet to a midair I've come.

Are you actually arguing there is no problem throughout the RV ranks?
 
Jay Honeck said:
I have been reading this thread with ever greater consternation and amusement -- especially since my next plane will probably be an RV. I personally think they are just about the coolest planes out there.

Here's my bottom line: I would LOVE to see a vast formation of RVs over Mustang Island every weekend, doing overhead breaks to land. Hell, I know people who would pay to see it.

As long as they have announced their intentions, the overhead break to land works fine. The key is communication, and for them to fit into what's going on in the pattern. Personally, if I was airborne and heard a "flight of ten" coming in, I would happily give way, and probably position myself so that I could observe their arrival.
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X2. Good post Jay. I concur.
 
Jay Honeck said:
I have been reading this thread with ever greater consternation and amusement -- especially since my next plane will probably be an RV. I personally think they are just about the coolest planes out there.

Here's my bottom line: I would LOVE to see a vast formation of RVs over Mustang Island every weekend, doing overhead breaks to land. Hell, I know people who would pay to see it.

As long as they have announced their intentions, the overhead break to land works fine. The key is communication, and for them to fit into what's going on in the pattern. Personally, if I was airborne and heard a "flight of ten" coming in, I would happily give way, and probably position myself so that I could observe their arrival.
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You might have missed, Jay, from your amused and dismayed perch, that overhead breaks were not the cause of the incident I described.

Outright disdain for other aircraft to the point of near-catastrophe is the greater problem.
 
Jay Honeck said:
I have been reading this thread with ever greater consternation and amusement -- especially since my next plane will probably be an RV. I personally think they are just about the coolest planes out there.
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I'll probably never own a personal airplane unless I get I another job which does not involve flying, but this thread has made RVs sound appealing to me. I would rather fly a sports car than a truck any day.
 
Ken Kopp said:
Your C152 has a glide ratio significantly higher than most RVs making that huge training pattern less than optimum for an RV should an engine failure occur.
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I seriously doubt that. I would be willing to bet they're both probably about the same. Somewhere around 9:1. Maybe 10:1 on a good day.
 
Panew said:
a bit OT...

once you have tried an experimental glass panel (GRT, Advanced Flight Systems, Dynon, etc.,)
you cannot go back.

all the synthetic vision, safe taxi, etc., will spoil you forever.
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Great. Dandy. Now give me $25K so I can upgrade avionics & instruments in my cherokee. Some of us (probably most of us) don't have $80K to spend on an airplane.
 
dmccormack said:
You might have missed, Jay, from your amused and dismayed perch, that overhead breaks were not the cause of the incident I described.

Outright disdain for other aircraft to the point of near-catastrophe is the greater problem.
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No, I know that, Dan. But the thread has drifted in that direction.

Your original point is very valid.
 
BellyUpFish said:
I was in the hangar a few weeks ago and watched a Baron start up, taxi around the ramp, cross an active runway, only to get there and leave without ever making a single radio call other than "Baron XYZ departing 29."
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Was this a towered airport? If not then what is the big deal? There is no "active" runway and the radio is not required. There isn't much reason to be making radio calls taxing around an uncontrolled airport.
 
ScottM said:
Apparently there was a fairly recent directive from the FAA that airport identification is no longer required or recommended as part of one's radio calls. I noticed about a year ago that there were a lot of people who would just things like '123AB on left down wind for the runway'. I thought this strange and non useful. But it seems extremely popular. I am sure I just missed the flyer, NOTAM, update to the FARs somehow. I see now that I am not the only one to have missed it either. You too are unaware of this radio procedure change.

[/SARCASM]
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Although I didn't get the NOTAM either, it obviously went out to everyone except for myself and you.

There are quite a few small airports in radio reception distance with the same frequency and I think I am the only person who identifies which airport at which I'm operating.

They do a great job of calling their runway number though. It's just that most of the small airports in our area have a 17/35 just as we do, so that doesn't help much.

Doc
 
jesse said:
Was this a towered airport? If not then what is the big deal? There is no "active" runway and the radio is not required. There isn't much reason to be making radio calls taxing around an uncontrolled airport.
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While technically correct, IMHO it's always wise to announce your intentions -- even when you think no one is listening.

I, for one, appreciate it.
 
Jay Honeck said:
While technically correct, IMHO it's always wise to announce your intentions -- even when you think no one is listening.

I, for one, appreciate it.
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I see little value in transmitting that you're taxing from your hangar to the ramp if there are no airplanes there.
 
Everskyward said:
I'll probably never own a personal airplane unless I get I another job which does not involve flying, but this thread has made RVs sound appealing to me. I would rather fly a sports car than a truck any day.
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Mari, what are you doing this Saturday? Come out to FTG for the EAA 301 picnic before noon, and I'll set you up with rides in a variety of RVs. Might even be able to swing Dagmar and her Pitts, too. Not possible in her Extra - only one seat.
 
dmccormack said:
I've seen this sort of non-standard, showboating behavior by RVs at other airports (I'll PM you identifiers, if you'd like) but this was the closet to a midair I've come.

Are you actually arguing there is no problem throughout the RV ranks?
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Read post #'s 83 and 107 with comprehension. It's not "showboating". You keep trying to link this weird upwind/downwind incident to a pattern of dangerous behavior. You say it's not about the "overhead approach" yet you mentioned it in your first post, and have not described anything else, so if it's not the overhead approach, what is it specifically? So since you still haven't said why you think the overhead approach is dangerous, I'll assume you do not, and that this "showboating" behavior is related to other unspecified incidents that you are not describing. Your story about the upwind-into-downwind guy is inexplicable. You think he deliberately flew right into downwind traffic? Is this how you think the overhead approach generally goes? Why didn't he land then? Yes, there is very small percentage of RV pilots who give the other 99% a bad rap. You'll find that anywhere, with anything.
 
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jesse said:
Was this a towered airport? If not then what is the big deal? There is no "active" runway and the radio is not required. There isn't much reason to be making radio calls taxing around an uncontrolled airport.
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While I agree that making calls regarding taxiing around th ramp or taxiways isn't necesssary, if you have a working radio, prudence suggests making a call before crossing any runway even though it's not required, because someone else may be using it for takeoff/landing even if you're not.
 
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murphey said:
Mari, what are you doing this Saturday? Come out to FTG for the EAA 301 picnic before noon, and I'll set you up with rides in a variety of RVs. Might even be able to swing Dagmar and her Pitts, too. Not possible in her Extra - only one seat.
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Cool, I even have this Saturday off. Is that at the terminal or the place where the LSA Expo was?
 
Ron Levy said:
...but even though it's not required, if you have a working radio, prudence suggests making a call before crossing any runway, because someone else may be using it for takeoff/flanding even if you're not.
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I understand that. You'll notice my main point was about TAXING around an airport, not crossing the runway.

As far as crossing the runway without making a radio call safely. It can be done. One just has to look OUTSIDE the airplane with their eyes. Same way we go through an uncontrolled intersection in a car. You look.
 
Everskyward said:
Cool, I even have this Saturday off. Is that at the terminal or the place where the LSA Expo was?
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Neither....I don't know if breakfast flight is on the schedule (7:30 am AIS) with the picnic, I'll check and let you know. Picnic at Ted Lehman's hangar on the east side - those big green box hangars. Just wander and look for all the cars and people. More info later.
 
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