Pattern Foolishness

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kyleb

Final Approach
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Drake the Outlaw
No bruised egos, no bent aluminum, but a WTF yesterday.

I went out to PYP - Center Alabama, which is about 30-40 miles from the home strip for some stop and go practice at what is usually a dead airport. As I got close to the field, a Cessna was backtaxing for departure on 25 (I think, not a big deal if that's not the right runway number), so I adjusted my approach to use that runway. There was little/no wind at that time of day - there are several power plants in the vicinity and all of their exhaust was rising vertically - basically a calm summer day.

So I stayed in the pattern doing stop and goes, and on one of my downwinds, another Cessna announces he's doing a midfield departure on the reciprocal - 07. No biggie for me, there's plenty of room. He accelerated in ground effect, lifted to clear the road at the East end of the runway, and proceeded at very low level for another half mile until he came to a tree line where he zoomed the C-150 (?) to about 400' AGL, where he turned downwind for 07 and continued climbing to pattern altitude. About that time, I announced turning base for 25 and he piped up "Wind's favoring 07". (It wasn't - the sock was limp - I checked).

I did one more stop and go and left the field to Mr Unconventional Decision so he could make future odd decisions in isolation.

Just weird.
 
kyleb said:
He accelerated in ground effect, lifted to clear the road at the East end of the runway, and proceeded at very low level for another half mile until he came to a tree line where he zoomed the C-150 (?) to about 400' AGL, where he turned downwind for 07 and continued climbing to pattern altitude.
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Kids shouldn't be allowed to play with airplanes. :(
 
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"The wind is variable. It has been changing back and forth all day." is my usual response and usually shuts people up. People get on their high horse thinking their quick glance is an accurate representation when I've been watching it switch runways every 10 minutes for the past 4 hours.
 
My home airport, we do things our way type of thinking.

I have come across that a few times in my career. I just agree, let them go, then go back to what I was doing.
 
What can you do? Usually I find pilots super cooperative and helpful with staying in the flow and announcing when winds are actually favoring one runway over another.

I guess you could have left a sarcastic transmission on your way out but I doubt it would have been received.
 
Salty said:
Still trying to figure out the problem. Two pilots shared their opinions and did what they felt was best without endangering the other. :shrug:
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In zero wind conditions at a field with no nearby terrain, why would you choose to fly your pattern in direct opposition to aircraft which are already in the pattern?
 
kyleb said:
In zero wind conditions at a field with no nearby terrain, why would you choose to fly your pattern in direct opposition to aircraft which are already in the pattern?
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Because you are too lazy to back taxi to the in-use runway? Or, you weren't listening to CTAF during your taxi and runup? You expect the world to conform to your wishes?
 
Our airport has two runways. On one calm wind day, I literally saw 4 aircraft use all 4 runways within 90 seconds of each other.
 
Domenick said:
Because you are too lazy to back taxi to the in-use runway? Or, you weren't listening to CTAF during your taxi and runup? You expect the world to conform to your wishes?
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If it's not a safety factor, why waste the gas to back taxi? I don't see the issue here.
 
Welcome to an uncontrolled airport. People use the runway they want. I've seen people taking off from both ends of a runway, fortunately not at the same time.
 
Our airport (W29 - Bay Bridge in Stevensville, MD) is right next to the Chesapeake Bay. The windsock at the bay side can be pointing in a different direction than the mid-field sock. Makes for interesting times.
 
steingar said:
I had to tell a guy he was landing with a ten knot tailwind once.
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I've done it on purpose. Not something I'd do often, but it's always good to do it under controlled circumstances so you know what to expect if you get into a situation where you have to do it.

And somebody pointed it out me, which is not a bad thing. But we coordinated on the radio and both of us did what we wanted without impacting safety or each other.
 
bflynn said:
Welcome to an uncontrolled airport. People use the runway they want. I've seen people taking off from both ends of a runway, fortunately not at the same time.
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This, perfectly legal. BUT, do try to blend in. Sometimes I'll call in for one runway, just to find out another is being used, so I adapt, if the other guy is landing with a 20 knot tailwind, I just go around if I see it late or readjust to a more reasonable runway when he lands or goes away.
 
Salty said:
I've done it on purpose. Not something I'd do often, but it's always good to do it under controlled circumstances so you know what to expect if you get into a situation where you have to do it.

And somebody pointed it out me, which is not a bad thing. But we coordinated on the radio and both of us did what we wanted without impacting safety or each other.
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I've done it too, a couple times, at controlled airfields either for an approach or because that is what they were using. The caveat is that the runways were at least 5,000 feet and the AC I'm flying POH allows up to a 10 knot tail wind with all the usually adjustments and warnings.
 
PaulS said:
This, perfectly legal. BUT, do try to blend in. Sometimes I'll call in for one runway, just to find out another is being used, so I adapt, if the other guy is landing with a 20 knot tailwind, I just go around if I see it late or readjust to a more reasonable runway when he lands or goes away.
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Yes, I do. The only time I didn't was when people still using the other runway just because everyone else was, but they now had a 10 kt quartering tailwind. I called it and explained why, but everyone kept going with the tailwind. Before taking off, I heard from the a/c #1 holding short.

Some time in the next 2 hours, they flipped it, which was good because the wind was pushing 20.
 
bflynn said:
Yes, I do. The only time I didn't was when people still using the other runway just because everyone else was, but they now had a 10 kt quartering tailwind. I called it and explained why, but everyone kept going with the tailwind. Before taking off, I heard from the a/c #1 holding short.

Some time in the next 2 hours, they flipped it, which was good because the wind was pushing 20.
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Yes, quartering tailwinds are not fun. A long, long time ago, I was landing at Sandford ME, this was before AWOS, I called unicom and a helpful young lady told me what runway people were using. So I set up and tried to land. About 35 feet AGL things weren't right, I was too fast, and couldn't hold the xwind correction. So I started a go around, it was a hot day and I was in a Beech Skipper that ended up having the engine overhauled a few months after this. Anyway, I went full power, started pulling flaps, as the flaps were coming up I touched down on one wheel, I held it there, rudder mashed to the floor, waiting for the airplane to take off again, I rolled about 100 feet that way until it popped off the ground again. When I got airborne a guy came on the radio and said the wind was favoring the other runway now and he was sorry about that. I told him no worries. I learned a valuable lesson that day about overflying the airport and finding the windsock rather than relying on unicom for runway info.
 
On landing at Cable (KCCB) I had a guy screaming I was landing in the wrong direction and was going to die. It was light winds, and the runway slopes upward, I was off before halfway. Sometimes you have to ignore the “experts”.
 
I landed tonight with a light tailwind, was safer than going into the sun were even with sunglasses it was hard to get depth perception in landing the normal way...
 
I once saw a king air returning from skydive operations landing against the flow of traffic at the same time a skyhawk was landing on the opposite end of the runway. The king air wasn't talking on the radio (and likely wasn't monitoring it either) or he would have known the rest of the airport was landing on the opposite end. I thought I was about to see a lot of bent metal in the middle of the runway that day, but luckily the skyhawk saw the idiot and took evasive action.
 
steingar said:
I had to tell a guy he was landing with a ten knot tailwind once.
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10kt tailwind on a 5000' runway is much better better than trying to land flying blind into the sun. This is routine occurrence at my home 'drome from May - October
 
cmsuav8r said:
I once saw a king air returning from skydive operations landing against the flow of traffic at the same time a skyhawk was landing on the opposite end of the runway. The king air wasn't talking on the radio (and likely wasn't monitoring it either) or he would have known the rest of the airport was landing on the opposite end. I thought I was about to see a lot of bent metal in the middle of the runway that day, but luckily the skyhawk saw the idiot and took evasive action.
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The KA was operating on alternate flight rules. Law of gross tonnage!
 
Bill Jennings said:
The KA was operating on alternate flight rules. Law of gross tonnage!
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Skydive and crop dusting pilots operate in their own world often times. They are in an industry where minutes count, and do some hairy things to make a buck. I've literally witnessed a crop dusting operation with multiple aircraft taking off one direction and landing the opposite on the same runway, at the same time.
 
My fist landing at PHDH in a C182 had a glider landing behind me on the displaced and, as I was touching down on the numbers, the skydive King Air passing 50' above me and landing long. All at the same time.
 
EdFred said:
10kt tailwind on a 5000' runway is much better better than trying to land flying blind into the sun. This is routine occurrence at my home 'drome from May - October
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Yeah, to be honest I've done it too. Trying to get in before the storm, straight into the windward runway. Hangars at the end, so a bit of float isn't a bad thing. The case I was thinking about there wasn't much sun or any other reason to land with a tailwind, though the runway was long enough. Guy just didn't look at the windsock or listen to the AWOS.
 
I was headed into CBE a few years back ferrying my new to me Starduster home. I was having trouble landing the plane, not only because it was the fastest taildragger I'd ever flown but also (unbeknownst to me) the airspeed indicator was partially plugged and the landing gear was cracked and misaligned. Anyway, my headset wire had broken so I couldn't hear the AWOS, so when I overflow the field looking for a windsock I saw a Cirrus in the pattern and I followed him in... I don't know how strong the tailwind was but I visited both sides of the 150' runway width before getting it stopped.
 
Dana said:
Anyway, my headset wire had broken so I couldn't hear the AWOS, so when I overflow the field looking for a windsock I saw a Cirrus in the pattern and I followed him in... I don't know how strong the tailwind was but I visited both sides of the 150' runway width before getting it stopped.
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Found your problem. Something about the blind leading the blind...:D:p
 
cmsuav8r said:
I once saw a king air returning from skydive operations landing against the flow of traffic at the same time a skyhawk was landing on the opposite end of the runway. The king air wasn't talking on the radio (and likely wasn't monitoring it either) or he would have known the rest of the airport was landing on the opposite end. I thought I was about to see a lot of bent metal in the middle of the runway that day, but luckily the skyhawk saw the idiot and took evasive action.
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Those meat bomb pilots think they own the field. Was on left base and one of those KA jack wagons dropped in from above right in front of my nose. They don’t do the pattern like the rest of us.
 
Domenick said:
Because you are too lazy to back taxi to the in-use runway? Or, you weren't listening to CTAF during your taxi and runup? You expect the world to conform to your wishes?
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.... or, you just want to buck the system and see if you can get a rise out of someone. Yeah, that personality type is out there.
 
Don’t charts have a favored runway indication. IE: RP25
Right pattern 25

in a no wind that would be the default goto then ??
 
Roadracin said:
Don’t charts have a favored runway indication. IE: RP25
Right pattern 25

in a no wind that would be the default goto then ??
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That in no way indicates the most commonly used or preferred runway. All it says is that if you're using 25, you fly a right pattern. The Chart Supplement or online references might indicate a calm wind runway, but charts don't.

Sent from my SM-G965U using Tapatalk
 
Roadracin said:
Don’t charts have a favored runway indication. IE: RP25
Right pattern 25

in a no wind that would be the default goto then ??
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No. left or right traffic has nothing to do with favored no wind runways.
 
I must chime in again on this.

I don't doubt pilots screw up patterns in unpredictable ways with some regularity.

But virtually all of my flying recently has been at non-towered airports, and any sort of pattern impropriety has been really, really rare. I like to overfly the pattern 500' above it, and then coordinate with any reported traffic and go with the flow. I find that most times, most pilots at most airports do a pretty darn good job at working things out just fine.
 
ateamer said:
That in no way indicates the most commonly used or preferred runway. All it says is that if you're using 25, you fly a right pattern. The Chart Supplement or online references might indicate a calm wind runway, but charts don't.

Sent from my SM-G965U using Tapatalk
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The place to find the preferred calm wind runway is in the comments section for the airport. The airport management can designate a calm wind runway if they desire. It is by no means binding though.
 
The only regs say don't act recklessly and don't get without 500 feet of anything. Everything else is just icing.
 
Salty said:
The only regs say don't act recklessly and don't get without 500 feet of anything. Everything else is just icing.
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Well, the regs do specify the direction of turns:

§ 91.126 Operating on or in the vicinity of an airport in Class G airspace.
(a) General. Unless otherwise authorized or required, each person operating an aircraft on or in the vicinity of an airport in a Class G airspace area must comply with the requirements of this section.

(b) Direction of turns. When approaching to land at an airport without an operating control tower in Class G airspace -

(1) Each pilot of an airplane must make all turns of that airplane to the left unless the airport displays approved light signals or visual markings indicating that turns should be made to the right, in which case the pilot must make all turns to the right;
 
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