Passenger Currency Requirements

[kimberlyanne546]

Sec. 61.57 — Recent flight experience: Pilot in command.

(a) General experience.

(1) Except as provided in paragraph (e) of this section, no person may act as a pilot in command of an aircraft carrying passengers or of an aircraft certificated for more than one pilot flight crewmember unless that person has made at least three takeoffs and three landings within the preceding 90 days, and—


(i) The person acted as the sole manipulator of the flight controls; and

(ii) The required takeoffs and landings were performed in an aircraft of the same category, class, and type (if a type rating is required), and, if the aircraft to be flown is an airplane with a tailwheel, the takeoffs and landings must have been made to a full stop in an airplane with a tailwheel.

(2) For the purpose of meeting the requirements of paragraph (a)(1) of this section, a person may act as a pilot in command of an aircraft under day VFR or day IFR, provided no persons or property are carried on board the aircraft, other than those necessary for the conduct of the flight.

(3) The takeoffs and landings required by paragraph (a)(1) of this section may be accomplished in a flight simulator or flight training device that is—

(i) Approved by the Administrator for landings; and

(ii) Used in accordance with an approved course conducted by a training center certificated under part 142 of this chapter.

(b) Night takeoff and landing experience.

(1) Except as provided in paragraph (e) of this section, no person may act as pilot in command of an aircraft carrying passengers during the period beginning 1 hour after sunset and ending 1 hour before sunrise, unless within the preceding 90 days that person has made at least three takeoffs and three landings to a full stop during the period beginning 1 hour after sunset and ending 1 hour before sunrise, and—

(i) That person acted as sole manipulator of the flight controls; and

(ii) The required takeoffs and landings were performed in an aircraft of the same category, class, and type (if a type rating is required).

 

[kimberlyanne546]

So - sunset tonight according to the weather briefer is at 7:23pm.

Does this mean that as long as my wheels don't touch the runway until 8:23pm or later I am OK to then begin my three landings around the pattern?

 

[kimberlyanne546]

Also, it sounds like "touch and go's" (which I was never trained to do anyways) are not OK for night. Can I do a stop and go on the runway so that I do not have to taxi back?

I may or may not go flying tonight and it sounds like shooting three night landings would keep me current for 3 months (for day and night). I might have a night flight in October with another pilot and want to be legal for it.

 

[JeffDG]

Stop-and-go's are just fine for night currency.

Be careful about taking off and not landing until 2023...you need 3 takeoffs AND 3 landings at night to qualify.

 

[EdFred]

I might have a night flight in October with another pilot and want to be legal for it.

If the other pilot happens to be current, you don't have to be. Acting PIC vs logging PIC and all that jazz.

 

[Palmpilot]

So - sunset tonight according to the weather briefer is at 7:23pm.

Does this mean that as long as my wheels don't touch the runway until 8:23pm or later I am OK to then begin my three landings around the pattern?

It means you shouldn't start your first takeoff roll until 8:23 PM. Remember, you have to do night takeoffs too. (And you need to log both the takeoffs and the landings.)

 

[kimberlyanne546]

Stop-and-go's are just fine for night currency.

Be careful about taking off and not landing until 2023...you need 3 takeoffs AND 3 landings at night to qualify.

Thanks for the clarification. I am so glad to be able to ask questions like this - since this is something I will be doing a lot going forward.

Oh and this might be (weather permitting) my first flight with another pilot - tonight - where I am performing a landing. So much pressure! I hope I do okay.

 

[kimberlyanne546]

If the other pilot happens to be current, you don't have to be. Acting PIC vs logging PIC and all that jazz.

I'm not sure if he is. If he reads this thread maybe he can tell us. I know my night training with landings was a while ago, and by October it may be more than 90 days old, so I wanted to do this for legal reasons.

 

[kimberlyanne546]

It means you shouldn't start your first takeoff roll until 7:23 PM. Remember, you have to do night takeoffs too. (And you need to log both the takeoffs and the landings.)

You mean 8:23pm? 7:23pm is sunset - the regs say "during the period beginning 1 hour after sunset".

 

[Palmpilot]

If the other pilot happens to be current, you don't have to be. Acting PIC vs logging PIC and all that jazz.

As long as the other pilot agrees to act as PIC, and has the appropriate rating.

 

[Palmpilot]

You mean 8:23pm? 7:23pm is sunset - the regs say "during the period beginning 1 hour after sunset".

Sorry, you're right. I'll go back and fix that.

 

[kimberlyanne546]

As long as the other pilot agrees to act as PIC, and has the appropriate rating.

Plus I don't know how this all comes into play regarding the rental agreement. If a pilot comes from out of state, and I'm the one checked out in the 152 with the flight school right there - they can see me climb in - don't I have to sit in the left seat the whole time?

 

[Capt. Geoffrey Thorpe]

Also, it sounds like "touch and go's" (which I was never trained to do anyways) are not OK for night. Can I do a stop and go on the runway so that I do not have to taxi back?

I may or may not go flying tonight and it sounds like shooting three night landings would keep me current for 3 months (for day and night). I might have a night flight in October with another pilot and want to be legal for it.

Stop and go works for me. Obviously, if you take 1000 feet to land, that is 1000 feet you don't have for the takeoff. That could be a problem for some aircraft on shorter runways. On the other hand, if you have enough runway, you could do all three in one pass.

 

[jsstevens]

You mean 8:23pm? 7:23pm is sunset - the regs say "during the period beginning 1 hour after sunset".

Yes, 8:23PM as you thought and, as noted above, takeoffs _and_ landings - not just landings. Takeoff whenever you want and do 4 stop and goes after 8:23 - then you're covered.

Touch and goes do not count as you saw. What my instructor told me was there were to many accidents with people doing T&Gs at night running out of runway because they misjudged the remaining runway and the time to get reconfigured in the dark. Someone will no doubt be along to correct this statement if it's wrong. :wink2:

John

 

[Palmpilot]

Plus I don't know how this all comes into play regarding the rental agreement. If a pilot comes from out of state, and I'm the one checked out in the 152 with the flight school right there - they can see me climb in - don't I have to sit in the left seat the whole time?

What seat you sit in does not determine whether you are acting as pilot in command. That is determined by the definition in FAR 1.1, which basically says it's the person who is responsible for the conduct of the flight.

The place you are renting the plane from could have rules about which seat you can fly the plane from, and they probably have a rule that your friend couldn't act as PIC if he has not been checked out in their planes. If so, those requirements would be separate from FAA rules.

 

[kimberlyanne546]

(ii) The required takeoffs and landings were performed in an aircraft of the same category, class, and type (if a type rating is required).

So category: AIRPLANE

And class: SINGLE ENGINE LAND

This means I can "cheaply" do my night currency in the cute 152 around the pattern at O69 if needed.

Whether or not I plan to have night flights, I don't want to be stuck somewhere in another plane such as the 172 and tell passengers "well it is too late we can't go home until tomorrow."

 

[kimberlyanne546]

Stop and go works for me. Obviously, if you take 1000 feet to land, that is 1000 feet you don't have for the takeoff. That could be a problem for some aircraft on shorter runways. On the other hand, if you have enough runway, you could do all three in one pass.

That's strange, I thought you had to do a full traffic pattern each time. Not just takeoff and land?

 

[kimberlyanne546]

What seat you sit in does not determine whether you are acting as pilot in command. That is determined by the definition in FAR 1.1, which basically says it's the person who is responsible for the conduct of the flight.

The place you are renting the plane from could have rules about which seat you can fly the plane from, and they probably have a rule that your friend couldn't act as PIC if he has not been checked out in their planes. If so, those requirements would be separate from FAA rules.

This brings up a good question. Let's say one of us wants to fly to our destination (from either left or right seat, doesn't matter) and the other one wants to fly home. I will need to review what I signed at the flight school (if anything). However, the FAA rules about logging time in our books - do they "win"? This could get complicated. Argh.

 

[jsstevens]

(ii) The required takeoffs and landings were performed in an aircraft of the same category, class, and type (if a type rating is required).

So category: AIRPLANE

And class: SINGLE ENGINE LAND

This means I can "cheaply" do my night currency in the cute 152 around the pattern at O69 if needed.

Whether or not I plan to have night flights, I don't want to be stuck somewhere in another plane such as the 172 and tell passengers "well it is too late we can't go home until tomorrow."

That's correct. You could do your currency requirements in the 152 and fly the 172 at night with passengers. Or any other single engine land plane you are legal to fly.

 

[Palmpilot]

Here's the FAR 1.1 definition I referred to earlier:

Pilot in command means the person who:

(1) Has final authority and responsibility for the operation and safety of the flight;

(2) Has been designated as pilot in command before or during the flight; and

(3) Holds the appropriate category, class, and type rating, if appropriate, for the conduct of the flight.

 

[Palmpilot]

This brings up a good question. Let's say one of us wants to fly to our destination (from either left or right seat, doesn't matter) and the other one wants to fly home. I will need to review what I signed at the flight school (if anything). However, the FAA rules about logging time in our books - do they "win"? This could get complicated. Argh.

A different regulation governs logging PIC time from the one that governs acting as PIC. I'll dig up the FAA Chief Counsel opinion letter that covers that.

 

[Fearless Tower]

What seat you sit in does not determine whether you are acting as pilot in command. That is determined by the definition in FAR 1.1, which basically says it's the person who is responsible for the conduct of the flight.

The place you are renting the plane from could have rules about which seat you can fly the plane from, and they probably have a rule that your friend couldn't act as PIC if he has not been checked out in their planes. If so, those requirements would be separate from FAA rules.

Correct, with the exception of some multi-pilot aircraft, the FAA could care less which side the PIC sits.

 

[bob_albertson]

Yes, 8:23PM as you thought and, as noted above, takeoffs _and_ landings - not just landings. Takeoff whenever you want and do 4 stop and goes after 8:23 - then you're covered.

Touch and goes do not count as you saw. What my instructor told me was there were to many accidents with people doing T&Gs at night running out of runway because they misjudged the remaining runway and the time to get reconfigured in the dark. Someone will no doubt be along to correct this statement if it's wrong. :wink2:

John

-I don't doubt that reasoning behind the restriction. Knowing how political the regulations are, I always wonder what the underlying promoting reason was.... Meaning, who was a friend/relative/or the actual senator that did something prompting them to push the FAA for that change and what did they do to bring that along.... Could have been a senator's son killed --- Spin training for private pilots is an example of that type of action. It occured in Arkansas back in the 70's IIRC. The son of a senator was doing private pilot training and spins were required back then. The son and instructor couldn't recover in time and they both died in the insuing crash. The senator had spin training removed from the required aeronautical experience section in short order.

Kim, before you take your passenger up tonight you should double check one thing. How long ago you did your night landings. Sometimes students/instructors both think a checkride makes you current for requirements such as this. Take a peek back and make you you do have 3 t/o and LNDs within the previous 90 days at night.

A lot of pilots like to take advantage of the night currency two-fold flights. A night flight that you do for currency (or become current with) counts for your daytime currency also. I knew people who were money concious who would do their pax currency flights at night so that way if they had an oppertunity to fly at night they were covered plus if they wanted to take a weekend afternoon flight they were covered also. It was easier on their wallet for them to wait and fly until night instead of only flying right after work when it would have been ideal for their personal schedule. That way they were not limited to day time only currency.

Bob

 

[Matthew]

Also, check your renter's agreement - there may be something in there where they want you to have a CFI with you when you do this. Some do, some don't.

--

edit: Note what Bob said in the above post.

 

[Palmpilot]

A different regulation governs logging PIC time from the one that governs acting as PIC. I'll dig up the FAA Chief Counsel opinion letter that covers that.

It turns out there are a whole bunch of Chief Counsel interpretations on this subject, but the following one does a good job of setting out the distinction between logging PIC and acting as PIC, in the fourth paragraph:

http://www.faa.gov/about/office_org...0/interpretations/data/interps/1993/Hicks.rtf

"Prior to providing a specific response to your inquiry, it is appropriate to note here the distinction between serving as PIC and logging PIC time. PIC, as defined in FAR 1.1, means the pilot responsible for the operation and safety of an aircraft during flight time. FAR 61.51 pertains to the logging of PIC flight time, and it provides that a private or commercial pilot may log as PIC time only that flight time during which he is the sole manipulator of the controls of an aircraft for which he is rated, or when he is the sole occupant of the aircraft, or when he acts as PIC of an aircraft on which more than one pilot is required under the type certification of the aircraft, or the regulations under which the flight is conducted."​

 

[TripleZ]

Also, check your renter's agreement - there may be something in there where they want you to have a CFI with you when you do this. Some do, some don't.

--

edit: Note what Bob said in the above post.

Ditto. My rental agreement is currency evey 60 days and night flying requires a one time check-out from a CFI (getting my license with them did not count).

 

[kimberlyanne546]

-I don't doubt that reasoning behind the restriction. Knowing how political the regulations are, I always wonder what the underlying promoting reason was.... Meaning, who was a friend/relative/or the actual senator that did something prompting them to push the FAA for that change and what did they do to bring that along.... Could have been a senator's son killed --- Spin training for private pilots is an example of that type of action. It occured in Arkansas back in the 70's IIRC. The son of a senator was doing private pilot training and spins were required back then. The son and instructor couldn't recover in time and they both died in the insuing crash. The senator had spin training removed from the required aeronautical experience section in short order.

Kim, before you take your passenger up tonight you should double check one thing. How long ago you did your night landings. Sometimes students/instructors both think a checkride makes you current for requirements such as this. Take a peek back and make you you do have 3 t/o and LNDs within the previous 90 days at night.

A lot of pilots like to take advantage of the night currency two-fold flights. A night flight that you do for currency (or become current with) counts for your daytime currency also. I knew people who were money concious who would do their pax currency flights at night so that way if they had an oppertunity to fly at night they were covered plus if they wanted to take a weekend afternoon flight they were covered also. It was easier on their wallet for them to wait and fly until night instead of only flying right after work when it would have been ideal for their personal schedule. That way they were not limited to day time only currency.

Bob

My "passenger" is a pilot. And I'm not sure who will fly / who will do what since we are both checked out in that plane and both have an account with the flight school. I will check my logbook right now.

 

[Capt. Geoffrey Thorpe]

That's strange, I thought you had to do a full traffic pattern each time. Not just takeoff and land?

I've never seen documentation that suggests that a pattern has to happen.

 

[kimberlyanne546]

Ditto. My rental agreement is currency evey 60 days and night flying requires a one time check-out from a CFI (getting my license with them did not count).

Really? Maybe I should call the school now. But if they didn't say anything when the plane is reserved . . . ?

 

[Palmpilot]

This brings up a good question. Let's say one of us wants to fly to our destination (from either left or right seat, doesn't matter) and the other one wants to fly home. I will need to review what I signed at the flight school (if anything). However, the FAA rules about logging time in our books - do they "win"? This could get complicated. Argh.

I guess I didn't answer the aspect of your question about which rules "win."

The FAA has jurisdiction over what you do as a pilot, and over what you log.

The flight school can put additional restrictions on what you do in their aircraft, and some of that may be based on what you have logged, but they have no jurisdiction over what you log.

 

[Palmpilot]

Really? Maybe I should call the school now. But if they didn't say anything when the plane is reserved . . . ?

It might be more efficient just to re-read whatever rules and rental agreement they have.

 

[kimberlyanne546]

It might be more efficient just to re-read whatever rules and rental agreement they have.

I wonder where the responsibility lies. For example, when a pilot reserves the plane - do they check that person is current (medical / review / etc)? Or is it just an old client and they throw him the keys thinking nothing of it? If a new pilot reserves the plane for a night flight, and they say "OK," is it the person on the phone's job to be sure the renter is following rules? Or is it the renter's? If a pilot rents a plane with another pilot, how do they know who is PIC if both pilots are on the books there in case anything happens?

I didn't even think of anything like this before posting to POA. Last night I was going to fly (didn't happen due to weather) solo, at night, to log 3 landings.

Why did they not stop me if this was not OK?

 

[onwards]

Kim... you are probably still night current to take pax at night from your training! you HAD to do 10 F/S night T/O-Landings. I can't imagine it's been more than 3 months... has it?

Just go fly at night regularly enough (like once a month or something) and you'll always stay current (on account of each flight needing at least 2 F/S T/O and landings).

 

[Fearless Tower]

I wonder where the responsibility lies. For example, when a pilot reserves the plane - do they check that person is current (medical / review / etc)? Or is it just an old client and they throw him the keys thinking nothing of it? If a new pilot reserves the plane for a night flight, and they say "OK," is it the person on the phone's job to be sure the renter is following rules? Or is it the renter's? If a pilot rents a plane with another pilot, how do they know who is PIC if both pilots are on the books there in case anything happens?

I didn't even think of anything like this before posting to POA. Last night I was going to fly (didn't happen due to weather) solo, at night, to log 3 landings.

Why did they not stop me if this was not OK?

FWIW, you are probably okay. Doesn't hurt to double check with the school, but I've never seen a school/club/FBO that required a special night checkout. They are probably out there, but not that common.

 

[Matthew]

...But if they didn't say anything when the plane is reserved . . . ?

They may not keep a record of when the last time you were night-pax-current, or night current for renting (like some FBOs require). They may be leaving that responsibility up to you.

FWIW, you are probably okay. Doesn't hurt to double check with the school, but I've never seen a school/club/FBO that required a special night checkout. They are probably out there, but not that common.

One of my FBO rentals does require me to get a night currency checkout every now and then with a CFI, unless I have a certain number of night hours within some time period. They don't make me take a CFI along just to get night pax current, unless I'm not "night current" per their rental agreement.

 

[kimberlyanne546]

Good thing I checked my log book. I had 5 night landings on July 1st 2011. That would not have covered my October night flights with other people in my plane.

Now I know I "need" to do night landings in September. And since July and August have 31 days instead of 30, the 90 days doesn't even stretch into October at all.

And I wonder if the landing light is out again tonight on the 152 . . . LOL

 

[Anthony]

I wonder where the responsibility lies. For example, when a pilot reserves the plane - do they check that person is current (medical / review / etc)? Or is it just an old client and they throw him the keys thinking nothing of it? If a new pilot reserves the plane for a night flight, and they say "OK," is it the person on the phone's job to be sure the renter is following rules? Or is it the renter's? If a pilot rents a plane with another pilot, how do they know who is PIC if both pilots are on the books there in case anything happens?

I didn't even think of anything like this before posting to POA. Last night I was going to fly (didn't happen due to weather) solo, at night, to log 3 landings.

Why did they not stop me if this was not OK?

YOU are PIC. You are responsible for EVERYTHING.

 

[Palmpilot]

I wonder where the responsibility lies. For example, when a pilot reserves the plane - do they check that person is current (medical / review / etc)? Or is it just an old client and they throw him the keys thinking nothing of it? If a new pilot reserves the plane for a night flight, and they say "OK," is it the person on the phone's job to be sure the renter is following rules? Or is it the renter's? If a pilot rents a plane with another pilot, how do they know who is PIC if both pilots are on the books there in case anything happens?

It depends on the place you are renting from. For example, West Valley's scheduling software does a partial check of club currency requirements when you schedule the plane, but they leave it up to the pilots to comply with FAA currency rules. Other places I've rented from don't check anything other than wanting a copy of your certificates.

I didn't even think of anything like this before posting to POA. Last night I was going to fly (didn't happen due to weather) solo, at night, to log 3 landings.

Why did they not stop me if this was not OK?

There is no FAA requirement for night currency when you are flying solo. It's only when you are carrying a passenger(s) that those rules apply. Even if the flight school has restrictions that go beyond FAA rules, most of the places I've rented from expect the pilots to be self policing on that stuff.

And I agree with Anthony.

 

[Palmpilot]

And I wonder if the landing light is out again tonight on the 152 . . . LOL

My night landings are better without the light!

 

[poadeleted20]

Plus I don't know how this all comes into play regarding the rental agreement. If a pilot comes from out of state, and I'm the one checked out in the 152 with the flight school right there - they can see me climb in - don't I have to sit in the left seat the whole time?

That's up to the flight school, but I'm pretty sure that they won't let you take their plane if someone they don't know is acting as PIC.