Passenger Currency Requirements

Anthony said:
YOU are PIC. You are responsible for EVERYTHING.
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Along these lines, I just called and requested a copy of the one page agreement I signed. I gave them my temporary cert, but now I will also email them my medical too. I have an insurance with AOPA but not sure if I need to send that to them.
 
kimberlyanne546 said:
That's strange, I thought you had to do a full traffic pattern each time. Not just takeoff and land?
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That's to prevent you from going out on a giant runway and doing three takeoffs and landings on one pass. Stop and go's are fine with the FAA for night landing currency as long as you don't do them all on one pass down the runway.
 
kimberlyanne546 said:
This brings up a good question. Let's say one of us wants to fly to our destination (from either left or right seat, doesn't matter) and the other one wants to fly home. I will need to review what I signed at the flight school (if anything). However, the FAA rules about logging time in our books - do they "win"? This could get complicated. Argh.
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The FAA logging rules in this case basically say you log what you fly. Who's PIC is another story entirely, and is unaffected by who is flying or what they are logging.
 
kimberlyanne546 said:
My "passenger" is a pilot. And I'm not sure who will fly / who will do what since we are both checked out in that plane and both have an account with the flight school. I will check my logbook right now.
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Just make sure you two have that all settled before engine start.
 
Ron Levy said:
That's to prevent you from going out on a giant runway and doing three takeoffs and landings on one pass. Stop and go's are fine with the FAA for night landing currency as long as you don't do them all on one pass down the runway.
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I don't see 61.57 saying that.

61.57
(b) Night takeoff and landing experience. (1) Except as provided in paragraph (e) of this section, no person may act as pilot in command of an aircraft carrying passengers during the period beginning 1 hour after sunset and ending 1 hour before sunrise, unless within the preceding 90 days that person has made at least three takeoffs and three landings to a full stop during the period beginning 1 hour after sunset and ending 1 hour before sunrise, and—

(i) That person acted as sole manipulator of the flight controls; and

(ii) The required takeoffs and landings were performed in an aircraft of the same category, class, and type (if a type rating is required).
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It does however say it in
61.109(a)(2) Except as provided in §61.110 of this part, 3 hours of night flight training in a single-engine airplane that includes—

(i) One cross-country flight of over 100 nautical miles total distance; and

(ii) 10 takeoffs and 10 landings to a full stop (with each landing involving a flight in the traffic pattern) at an airport.
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which of course is the aeronautical experience required for a private pilot.
 
Ron Levy said:
That's up to the flight school, but I'm pretty sure that they won't let you take their plane if someone they don't know is acting as PIC.
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This is probably true. Makes me wonder what other pilots do / log. I know there have been threads on another website regarding "sharing" costs and "sharing" the controls of the plane. I assumed this meant the pilot who was posting the offer would log half the time in their book and the other pilot would log the other half . . . this was a rental plane so the second pilot would NOT be checked out / on file with the flight school.

Perhaps then pilot #1 was acting as PIC the entire time, in terms of the rental plane, but pilot #2 was the sole manipulator of the controls at some point - when he / she can log that time as "PIC".
 
kimberlyanne546 said:
Good thing I checked my log book. I had 5 night landings on July 1st 2011. That would not have covered my October night flights with other people in my plane.

Now I know I "need" to do night landings in September. And since July and August have 31 days instead of 30, the 90 days doesn't even stretch into October at all.

And I wonder if the landing light is out again tonight on the 152 . . . LOL
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:wink2: Good job catching that. You may want to have an electronic logbook at some point. It will keep up with your currency for you. Just tell it the day(s) for each thing and you are set to go.

And on the responsibility --- Yeah, you as PIC are responsible for making sure the airplane is airworthy (all required paperwork, completed inspections on the plane, and you meet the insurance requirements). During training the responsibility was on your instructor - though as you go you get less and less of a feeling like your instructor is the one who is in charge :). Any rate -- You are the one who is responsible to make sure the plane is ready to legally fly. The flight school is responsible for maintaining it in an airworthy state.... But, don't make any mistake about it, if the flight school ever fails on their end to maintain the plane in an airworthy state and you fly the plane while it is unairworthy then you both are in trouble with the FAA. It could be something as simple as the ELT battery (well, it's usually 6 D cell batteries in a pack) wasn't written off as being inspected within the alloted time/battery shelf life limitation.

Bob
 
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kimberlyanne546 said:
Plus I don't know how this all comes into play regarding the rental agreement. If a pilot comes from out of state, and I'm the one checked out in the 152 with the flight school right there - they can see me climb in - don't I have to sit in the left seat the whole time?
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By the way, independent of what the flight school/rental operation's rules are, I don't recommend landing from the right seat until you have gotten some training in it (with the instructor in the left seat). It takes some getting used to, and a couple of times I have seen people flare way high while doing it.
 
Palmpilot said:
By the way, independent of what the flight school/rental operation's rules are, I don't recommend landing from the right seat until you have gotten some training in it (with the instructor in the left seat). It takes some getting used to, and a couple of times I have seen people flare way high while doing it.
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Thanks for the advice. I need to discuss with the other pilots (including tonight's flight, I have three planned pilot flights in the next 2 months in the rental planes I'm allowed to fly in).

Things to discuss: who is sitting in which seat, who is doing what, who is logging what, etc.

Makes my Saturday passenger (non pilot) seem different now.
 
kimberlyanne546 said:
(But I won't)
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Good point. I think it's always a good idea, when considering shortcuts on currency rules, to consider that they're for our own benefit. I always consider whether I am doing something that makes a meaningful contribution to my proficiency. It sounds like you do too.
 
Palmpilot said:
Good point. I think it's always a good idea, when considering shortcuts on currency rules, to consider that they're for our own benefit. I always consider whether I am doing something that makes a meaningful contribution to my proficiency. It sounds like you do too.
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The only time I've done multiple takeoffs and landings on the length of my home runway was when I was first learning soft field takeoffs . . . .
 
I've rented from places that tracked everything... and I mean everything, and would stop you if their system didn't show you were current to FAA and their "add-on" rules, and I've rented from places that left it all up to you. Either way, it was still up to you, since you updated their "system" at the place that tracked all of it. Certain things in their system required a "CFI code" to confirm them.

At the end of the day, it's the PIC's responsibility to both know the FAA rules and the club rules, anywhere I've ever rented from.
 
Palmpilot said:
Good point. I think it's always a good idea, when considering shortcuts on currency rules, to consider that they're for our own benefit. I always consider whether I am doing something that makes a meaningful contribution to my proficiency. It sounds like you do too.
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Agreed... but it brings up another, broader point: all of these regs are really arbitrary numbers or cutoff points.

Are you really "completely not safe" flying with a pax 91 days after the last time you did your last three night TO and landings, while being "completely safe" doing it the day before? of course not... night currency, like any flying skill, is one of those things that deteriorates over time, not change in a binary fashion from one day to the next. And it changes between one person and the next, too.

Similarly, I wasn't any better or worse pilot on the afternoon of my checkride than I was that morning. The PPL itself didn't in any way, shape or form, make me safer. Everything I've ever been told about the FAA rating system is that, at least by intent, it is designed more as a "validation system" than anything else, meaning an independent confirmation of your skill in a certain area than anything else. Isn't that one of the reasons why they don't consider it a license, but rather a certificate?

I think that's the part of "accountability" that people tend to forget. As a PIC, you ARE responsible for everything. But you are also ACCOUNTABLE to it. The FAA, as bureaucracies tend to do, sometimes ends up focusing on the "letter of the law" instead of on its spirit - and we tend to follow. But I think that's not the intent.

In other words, and please don't jump on me, if you fly a pax without currency and nothing happens, then nobody will ever know (and you will become current in the process). The accountability part comes from the situation where you do it and something DOES happen. And then you WILL get in trouble. I think - and it's just my opinion - that this is the main point of the reg, not the other way around. That is, the intent is not to "catch you" busting the reg, but rather make you accountable if you do bust it and something goes wrong.

Personally, I fly at night (well after sunset) at least once a month because I don't feel safe flying or taking folks with me otherwise. Night flying is very different than day, and requires this constant reinforcement. That's just my opinion, and what works for me. Of course, I really LIKE flying at night so it's not really a challenge to maintain formal night currency for me!
 
Palmpilot said:
By the way, independent of what the flight school/rental operation's rules are, I don't recommend landing from the right seat until you have gotten some training in it (with the instructor in the left seat). It takes some getting used to, and a couple of times I have seen people flare way high while doing it.
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Very true....I've even seen people who weren't used to the yoke in the right hand over-correct and push the nose down toward the runway.
 
kimberlyanne546 said:
The only time I've done multiple takeoffs and landings on the length of my home runway was when I was first learning soft field takeoffs . . . .
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Heh.

You should come for a session with one of my club instructors. He did with me post PPL as part of my continuing education and it was an excellent lesson. Look up the diagram for CCR. He does what he calls "cloverleaf"s. Basically, you take off from say runway 14, and he pulls the throttle maybe 50ft off the ground and you have to land on 19. Then you take off from 19, and he will pull the throttle at maybe 300ft asking you to land on 32, and so on and so forth. It's excellent training for engine failures during takeoffs, and I am so grateful for that lesson, which I would never have gotten as part of my PPL training.
 
onwards said:
Heh.

You should come for a session with one of my club instructors. He did with me post PPL as part of my continuing education and it was an excellent lesson. Look up the diagram for CCR. He does what he calls "cloverleaf"s. Basically, you take off from say runway 14, and he pulls the throttle maybe 50ft off the ground and you have to land on 19. Then you take off from 19, and he will pull the throttle at maybe 300ft asking you to land on 32, and so on and so forth. It's excellent training for engine failures during takeoffs, and I am so grateful for that lesson, which I would never have gotten as part of my PPL training.
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While I appreciate the suggestion I do not have the time or the funds right now to visit CCR. I am going to spend money getting checked out in the 172 on Saturday (which I'm told is kind of like a flight test), and I flew two days ago, and I might fly tonight. It may take me a month or two to earn back that money in my second job . . . and this does not even include the flights I plan to take in the next two months.
 
Ron Levy said:
That's to prevent you from going out on a giant runway and doing three takeoffs and landings on one pass. Stop and go's are fine with the FAA for night landing currency as long as you don't do them all on one pass down the runway.
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I will defer to Mr. Levy's knowledge on this point.
 
Go to KMER Castle. You could do 280 days worth of T&Gs without even making a trip around the patt.
 
Palmpilot said:
By the way, independent of what the flight school/rental operation's rules are, I don't recommend landing from the right seat until you have gotten some training in it (with the instructor in the left seat). It takes some getting used to, and a couple of times I have seen people flare way high while doing it.
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Yeah, I wouldn't let people who haven't done so before land from the right unless I was very comfortable with the plane. Flaring high, side loads, etc. Lots of silly stuff can happen.....
 
Weather looks good so far but that marine layer can sneak in pretty quickly. Briefer said the nearest TAF predicts ceilings of 1200 after 10pm and I can't get started until 8:20pm. We'll see what happens. Talked to my CFI just now about the rules and he said doing night landings is fine.
 
kimberlyanne546 said:
Weather looks good so far but that marine layer can sneak in pretty quickly. Briefer said the nearest TAF predicts ceilings of 1200 after 10pm and I can't get started until 8:20pm. We'll see what happens. Talked to my CFI just now about the rules and he said doing night landings is fine.
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So how did it go? I was driving down the Great Highway a bit after sunset and I didn't see any marine layer.
 
Everskyward said:
So how did it go? I was driving down the Great Highway a bit after sunset and I didn't see any marine layer.
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OMG. If all my flights are this awesome . . . I will never be able to think about anything except when I can become airborne again as PIC.

So I show up expecting 3 full stop landings around the pattern - should be easy and if the weather comes in I can simply land and put the plane away.

However, pilot has other ideas! He shows up with maps and cross country planners, suggesting to get night current - 3 landings - I could fly to nearby Napa airport (class D), then fly to Gnoss (untowered), then back to O69.

Long story short, and after getting out a pen / paper / sectional / AFD, I decide that it can be safely attempted and is close enough to O69 that we can make it back if the weather worsens.

The rest is too long of a story to type, but many adventures later we made it back home. I thought my first two landings were "OK" but the third one was not that great since the runway lights stopped working or were stuck on dim.

Night flying is VERY different and heights / traffic patterns were difficult to judge. I did not have the luxury of being at my home airport and was challenged by the new airports.

Funny thing is - I did something which has been suggested - go to a new airport every flight.

I am now passenger current for another 3 months, but night was really fun, and I may go again. It would not have been nearly as wonderful of a flight if there wasn't a pilot sitting next to me the whole time. It is something I feared (flying with a pilot who might judge my skills) but now I look forward to. Having another person who knows the VORs, radios, and all other items gives you peace of mind. And it doesn't hurt that in an emergency he can land the plane too!!!

And to think I was just going to show up the other day, solo, at night, and land the plane three times. Took another pilot to show me what can really be done - and I am thankful for that.

I did "worry" out loud more than once, about weather, and about getting lost, and about runways / locations..... cannot believe how much he put up with me. Incredible guy. I did all of that mostly because if I had planned the night flights in advance I would have been more familiar with where I was . . . it is easy to become sort of lost in the sky when everything is dark.


Kimberly
 
Those are my legs in the photo. Not yet "night" but did not take off for a while after filling up with gas - had to plan the very short cross country.


6143203804_6164227719_b.jpg
 
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kimberlyanne546 said:
Things to discuss: who is sitting in which seat, who is doing what, who is logging what, etc.
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Well, when I come out, you're sitting in the left seat!

And I'll do as much or as little as you want. But I wouldn't land from the right seat, absent an emergency, without a CFI onboard. I've flown from the right seat plenty of times without an issue, but landing from over there is an entirely different perspective if you're not used to it.

And yeah, I'm night current...but who knows by then?
 
onwards said:
In other words, and please don't jump on me, if you fly a pax without currency and nothing happens, then nobody will ever know (and you will become current in the process). The accountability part comes from the situation where you do it and something DOES happen. And then you WILL get in trouble. I think - and it's just my opinion - that this is the main point of the reg, not the other way around. That is, the intent is not to "catch you" busting the reg, but rather make you accountable if you do bust it and something goes wrong.
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That's the case with a great many of the FARs. So long as nothing bad happens, nobody knows. And it's a very slippery slope to start down; you do something which is technically not legal once or twice and nothing happens, so it reinforces the belief that you can continue. Plenty of pilots have learned the hard way that once something goes wrong, they are indeed held accountable. Now, I understand human nature and I understand temptation...and I've been known to drive over the speed limit from time to time...but I think it's important to remember that the FARs do have some logical basis and it's just not a slope I ever want to find myself on, because once you start sliding, it's not all that easy to get stopped.
 
BrianR said:
That's the case with a great many of the FARs. So long as nothing bad happens, nobody knows. And it's a very slippery slope to start down; you do something which is technically not legal once or twice and nothing happens, so it reinforces the belief that you can continue. Plenty of pilots have learned the hard way that once something goes wrong, they are indeed held accountable. Now, I understand human nature and I understand temptation...and I've been known to drive over the speed limit from time to time...but I think it's important to remember that the FARs do have some logical basis and it's just not a slope I ever want to find myself on, because once you start sliding, it's not all that easy to get stopped.
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Agreed. I just wanted to point out that the challenge with many of these is that they are arbitrary because they sort of have to be. But in reality they do not actually define what they are intended to enforce; the 90-day night currency question is a solid example (one's safety as a pilot at night does not flick from "on" to "off" on the midnight of day 91).

The same goes for speed limits, and pretty much any numerical regulation in any "safety" law. I do like that technology now allows us to do things like automatically changing speed limits based on road and traffic conditions and wish this sort of thing saw wider adoption, but this still does not the individual into account, which is probably a much bigger factor.
 
For my night currency/practice flights I've usually tried to get to a mix of fields. Wider vs. narrower and different length runways all create different visual illusions at night, plus you get to experience the different types of lighting. There is a class C nearby (MHT) which is quite convenient for night practice along with Nashua. Last time I was there doing night pattern work I shared the pattern with a KC-135!
 
kimberlyanne546 said:
Are you here / near here?
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Currently yes, out in the fog belt (Outer Richmond). The marine layer is back in the neighborhood this morning. I spend about six days every six weeks here taking care of family duties and the condo. Last night I was driving to the Apple store in Stonestown because I am not a genius and couldn't figure out how to set up Personal Hotspot. The real Genius helped me. Maybe I should've asked here on POA first. :D

Anyway, when I drive south from here I almost always take the Great Highway instead of 19th because the traffic and the scenery are far better.

Maybe one of these visits we can have a North Bay POA gathering. I could drive up in that direction.
 
Everskyward said:
Currently yes, out in the fog belt (Outer Richmond). The marine layer is back in the neighborhood this morning. I spend about six days every six weeks here taking care of family duties and the condo. Last night I was driving to the Apple store in Stonestown because I am not a genius and couldn't figure out how to set up Personal Hotspot. The real Genius helped me. Maybe I should've asked here on POA first. :D

Anyway, when I drive south from here I almost always take the Great Highway instead of 19th because the traffic and the scenery are far better.

Maybe one of these visits we can have a North Bay POA gathering. I could drive up in that direction.
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Stonestown? You are practically in my backyard. I grew up there (that was our mall). Sure if you are here every six weeks let me know when you are back again. Don't know if you feel comfortable flying with a beginner, but a meeting would be cool too. I only know of a few other POAers locally (that I've met in person)..... but if we post it early they will come out of the woodwork, all those other secret Bay Area POAers.
 
BrianR said:
Well, when I come out, you're sitting in the left seat!

And I'll do as much or as little as you want. But I wouldn't land from the right seat, absent an emergency, without a CFI onboard. I've flown from the right seat plenty of times without an issue, but landing from over there is an entirely different perspective if you're not used to it.

And yeah, I'm night current...but who knows by then?
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I just did my 3 night landings last night, so I am now legal for our flight together in October. If you will fit, I'd prefer the 152 . . . not because it is cheaper but because I have the most experience in that plane vs the 172.

I read the renter agreement and it actually says that the renter (me) has to be PIC for the flight. So that answers that. I will sit in the left seat, and if we end up having to go at night due to wx / schedule perhaps I should shoot an extra landing or two just to stay current . . . we'll see what happens.
 
kimberlyanne546 said:
Things to discuss: who is sitting in which seat, who is doing what, who is logging what, etc.
.
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Normal procedure is whoever is listed on the rental agreement is in the left seat. Doesn't matter if both are paying or who is actually flying....left seat is the guy (gal) who's hung out to dry if anything goes wrong. Now either of you can log time depending on who is actually flying. . .

I managed to get 5 takeoffs and landings each way without departing the runway. The runway was at Roswell NM (ROW) and its a 13,000ft strip about 2 or 300 feet wide with aprons on each side. Take off, climb to about 50ft and stabilize, descend and land to a full stop, repeat. Amazing what you can do with a Taylorcraft and 13 kilofeet of runway on a calm day. Never got to do night currency with that one though...no lights, no electric.


Frank
 
BiffJ said:
Normal procedure is whoever is listed on the rental agreement is in the left seat. Doesn't matter if both are paying or who is actually flying....left seat is the guy (gal) who's hung out to dry if anything goes wrong. Now either of you can log time depending on who is actually flying. . .

I managed to get 5 takeoffs and landings each way without departing the runway. The runway was at Roswell NM (ROW) and its a 13,000ft strip about 2 or 300 feet wide with aprons on each side. Take off, climb to about 50ft and stabilize, descend and land to a full stop, repeat. Amazing what you can do with a Taylorcraft and 13 kilofeet of runway on a calm day. Never got to do night currency with that one though...no lights, no electric.


Frank
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That sounds interesting. Is it a non-towered airport? Very dumb question here, but would a towered airport let a pilot do anything like that? I assume they would want you to fly the pattern for each takeoff / landing combo.
 
kimberlyanne546 said:
That sounds interesting. Is it a non-towered airport? Very dumb question here, but would a towered airport let a pilot do anything like that? I assume they would want you to fly the pattern for each takeoff / landing combo.
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We actually did a stop and go on my check ride by request of the DPE. He was in a hurry to make his next appointment and it saved a trip around the pattern.
 
kimberlyanne546 said:
That sounds interesting. Is it a non-towered airport? Very dumb question here, but would a towered airport let a pilot do anything like that? I assume they would want you to fly the pattern for each takeoff / landing combo.
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I've done two takeoffs and landings on the same pass at a towered airport. 7300' rwy, C172. Did a full-stop short-field landing (or maybe it was a touch & go), did a takeoff, then my CFI simulated an engine failure on takeoff and I landed straight ahead. I think we still had about half the rwy left. This was part of a flight-review - we just told tower we wanted to do a stop&go followed by a simulated engine out. He cleared us 'for the option', no big deal.

Don't controllers get bonus points for the number of takeoffs and landings they handle? - so the more, the merrier.
 
BiffJ said:
Normal procedure is whoever is listed on the rental agreement is in the left seat. Doesn't matter if both are paying or who is actually flying....left seat is the guy (gal) who's hung out to dry if anything goes wrong. Now either of you can log time depending on who is actually flying. . .
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No, that's incorrect. The FAA does not care who sits in what seat unless for some more complex (usually turbine) planes. The FBO can't "hang out people to dry." Maybe their insurer could, but since I'm sure you've followed the FBO's rules about who is PIC and who sits in which seat, you're fine there.
 
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