Part 61 - Number of CFI's

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riadanza

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Rob
Hi,

I'm currently enrolled in Part 61 with 22 hours of flight time. My concern is that I've had 10 different CFI's in my flight school and it feels like they're more concerned with Part 141 students.

For those in part 61 is this normal??

Thank you!
Rob
 
If it's due to instructors constantly leaving because they are getting airline positions, there's not much which can be done. But if it's only happening to the Part 61 students, you are being given the short end. Either way, I would look at other options and discuss the issue with school administration.
 
Thanks for everyone's feedback, it's much appreciated. The instructors have not left, the same instructors have been there since day 1.
 
It is built in to our syllabus that students will occasionally fly with someone other than their main CFI. I think that is a good thing. When I fly with someone else's students, I often see things the other CFI may have overlooked.

Today I had such a flight. The student was on lesson five, rectangular course, go-around, distance estimation. I asked him if he had been making radio calls, and he said no, so I had him make some of the easy ones - taxiing for departure, departing, downwind, etc. He also had never made a landing (I generally start teaching landings on the second lesson) so I coached him through his first one, and it wasn't all bad. I did not have to take the controls.

His next lesson is lesson six, with yet another CFI who is not the one he started with. Our FBO has seven CFIs, including the manager, who does very little primary training. I don't know of any student who flew with every one of the instructors.
 
Gilbert Buettner said:
It is built in to our syllabus that students will occasionally fly with someone other than their main CFI. I think that is a good thing. When I fly with someone else's students, I often see things the other CFI may have overlooked.

Today I had such a flight. The student was on lesson five, rectangular course, go-around, distance estimation. I asked him if he had been making radio calls, and he said no, so I had him make some of the easy ones - taxiing for departure, departing, downwind, etc. He also had never made a landing (I generally start teaching landings on the second lesson) so I coached him through his first one, and it wasn't all bad. I did not have to take the controls.

His next lesson is lesson six, with yet another CFI who is not the one he started with. Our FBO has seven CFIs, including the manager, who does very little primary training. I don't know of any student who flew with every one of the instructors.
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I completely agree. Having 2 or even 3 is reasonable and beneficial. But 10??
 
Something doesn't sound right there. I would look elsewhere but also realize that may not be easy to do. I just got a new plane - ferried to me two weeks ago. I need a flight review to be able to fly it - and contacted the large (Part 141) school at our airport. They wouldn't even talk to me about doing a flight review in my airplane and I didn't care to pay $300 per hour for a 172 with CFI to get a review in an airplane I have never flown and don't care to learn. They wouldn't even let me meet any of their instructors so I could ask if they wanted to do a bit of freelance work. So, yeah, I do think the 141 places are only concerned about what they want to do...
 
BaltimoreBill said:
Something doesn't sound right there. I would look elsewhere but also realize that may not be easy to do. I just got a new plane - ferried to me two weeks ago. I need a flight review to be able to fly it - and contacted the large (Part 141) school at our airport. They wouldn't even talk to me about doing a flight review in my airplane and I didn't care to pay $300 per hour for a 172 with CFI to get a review in an airplane I have never flown and don't care to learn. They wouldn't even let me meet any of their instructors so I could ask if they wanted to do a bit of freelance work. So, yeah, I do think the 141 places are only concerned about what they want to do...
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Yeah and I live in NY flying Diamond DA-40NGs so the price is very high to say the least.
 
BaltimoreBill said:
They wouldn't even let me meet any of their instructors so I could ask if they wanted to do a bit of freelance work.
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No surprise there. Schools do not want their employees to compete with them (even though in this case it seems unfair to you). I do flight reviews and training in airplanes the FBO does not own, but all the billing goes through the Flight School.
 
BaltimoreBill said:
Something doesn't sound right there. I would look elsewhere but also realize that may not be easy to do. I just got a new plane - ferried to me two weeks ago. I need a flight review to be able to fly it - and contacted the large (Part 141) school at our airport. They wouldn't even talk to me about doing a flight review in my airplane and I didn't care to pay $300 per hour for a 172 with CFI to get a review in an airplane I have never flown and don't care to learn. They wouldn't even let me meet any of their instructors so I could ask if they wanted to do a bit of freelance work. So, yeah, I do think the 141 places are only concerned about what they want to do...
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Well the obvious problem there is that you "contacted the large Part 141 flight school". Try the small Part 61 flight school or independent CFIs for much better results.
 
BaltimoreBill said:
Something doesn't sound right there. I would look elsewhere but also realize that may not be easy to do. I just got a new plane - ferried to me two weeks ago. I need a flight review to be able to fly it - and contacted the large (Part 141) school at our airport. They wouldn't even talk to me about doing a flight review in my airplane and I didn't care to pay $300 per hour for a 172 with CFI to get a review in an airplane I have never flown and don't care to learn. They wouldn't even let me meet any of their instructors so I could ask if they wanted to do a bit of freelance work. So, yeah, I do think the 141 places are only concerned about what they want to do...
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Going to a Part 141 school for a flight review is like trying to get advice on wine pairings at Walmart.
 
RussR said:
Well the obvious problem there is that you "contacted the large Part 141 flight school". Try the small Part 61 flight school or independent CFIs for much better results.
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I had two flights scheduled with another instructor (from my old Part 61) FBO - but he cancelled twice the mornings of...
Fortunately, I was (very recently) introduced to a CFI for a flying club at an air base - who also does freelance instruction. We are scheduled to fly tomorrow morning in my 'Coupe.
midlifeflyer said:
Going to a Part 141 school for a flight review is like trying to get advice on wine pairings at Walmart.
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Great analogy. Love it.
 
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BaltimoreBill said:
I had to flights scheduled with another instructor (from my old Part 61) FBO - but he cancelled twice the mornings of...
Fortunately, I was (very recently) introduced to a CFI for a flying club at an air base - who also does freelance instruction. We are scheduled to fly tomorrow morning in my 'Coupe.

Great analogy. Love it.
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Glad you found someone.

“‘Coupe’”? As in Ercoupe? That would be another problem. Great little airplane but not that many CFIs at a typical flight school - even Part 61 - who know how one works.
 
midlifeflyer said:
Glad you found someone.

“‘Coupe’”? As in Ercoupe? That would be another problem. Great little airplane but not that many CFIs at a typical flight school - even Part 61 - who know how one works.
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If they’re a CFI, they should be able to figure out an Ercoupe in about 10 minutes. They’re an airplane, just easier to fly than a lot of others.
 
ateamer said:
If they’re a CFI, they should be able to figure out an Ercoupe in about 10 minutes. They’re an airplane, just easier to fly than a lot of others.
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Some, probably. But there are sooooo many CFIs with so little experience except in one or two types of airplanes. That means an understandable hesitation in something different, especially something in which everything your were ever taught about a crosswind landing is wrong. And there are others who, although experienced in multiple models, reject the "I can fly anything!" invulnerability philosophy and want at least a brief checkout in something new to them regardless how simple it seems.

I actually did an Ercoupe checkout with an experienced ferry pilot with singles, multis, and helicopters before he ferried the airplane to a new owner. I was glad we had just enough crosswind to make things interesting. As expected, he had no problem at all (we laughed most of the time), but said he was glad to have someone in the right seat who was able to say that things which looked wrong were actually right.
 
Gilbert Buettner said:
It is built in to our syllabus that students will occasionally fly with someone other than their main CFI. I think that is a good thing. When I fly with someone else's students, I often see things the other CFI may have overlooked.

Today I had such a flight. The student was on lesson five, rectangular course, go-around, distance estimation. I asked him if he had been making radio calls, and he said no, so I had him make some of the easy ones - taxiing for departure, departing, downwind, etc. He also had never made a landing (I generally start teaching landings on the second lesson) so I coached him through his first one, and it wasn't all bad. I did not have to take the controls.

His next lesson is lesson six, with yet another CFI who is not the one he started with. Our FBO has seven CFIs, including the manager, who does very little primary training. I don't know of any student who flew with every one of the instructors.
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Perfect, your school has a syllabus requiring multiple instructors, but the CFIs don’t follow the syllabus and do what they want.
 
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On the first day your CFI should have given you a copy of the ACS, as that's what you'll need to learn.

But since 99% of CFIs are hot garbage they simply look at you and ask 'what do you want to do today' because, as I said, 99% of CFIs are hot garbage.

Also the airline rush is over. Unless they got in in 2024 everyone is scaling way back on new hires and have started to require much more more than a wet 1500hrs time.

Find a CFI that is not looking to waste your time so THEY can get to 1500 hours. My last and BEST CFI (of the 8 total in my logbook) was a part time CFI/135 pilot and he was not about the 1500 hours as he already have many thousands. Also most 141 schools are trash. He had so many great stories about flying piston commercial airliners like the Constellation and others I never knew existed.
 
pfarber said:
On the first day your CFI should have given you a copy of the ACS, as that's what you'll need to learn.

But since 99% of CFIs are hot garbage they simply look at you and ask 'what do you want to do today' because, as I said, 99% of CFIs are hot garbage.

Also the airline rush is over. Unless they got in in 2024 everyone is scaling way back on new hires and have started to require much more more than a wet 1500hrs time.

Find a CFI that is not looking to waste your time so THEY can get to 1500 hours. My last and BEST CFI was a part time CFI/135 pilot and he was not about the 1500 hours as he already have many thousands. Also most 141 schools are trash.
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I knew this going in, and for the most part the CFI's were really good, but there was a lack of focus at times and they seemed way too overworked. If I had 2 or even 3 CFI's that were consistently assigned to my training then it wouldn't have been too much of an issue.

But 10 different CFI's in 20 lessons makes it impossible for any cohesive training.
 
pfarber said:
On the first day your CFI should have given you a copy of the ACS, as that's what you'll need to learn.

But since 99% of CFIs are hot garbage they simply look at you and ask 'what do you want to do today' because, as I said, 99% of CFIs are hot garbage.

Also the airline rush is over. Unless they got in in 2024 everyone is scaling way back on new hires and have started to require much more more than a wet 1500hrs time.

Find a CFI that is not looking to waste your time so THEY can get to 1500 hours. My last and BEST CFI (of the 8 total in my logbook) was a part time CFI/135 pilot and he was not about the 1500 hours as he already have many thousands. Also most 141 schools are trash. He had so many great stories about flying piston commercial airliners like the Constellation and others I never knew existed.
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On the first day, you should have received a copy of the syllabus, which contains what you need to learn. The ACS is what the FAA will be test you on.
 
Clip4 said:
On the first day, you should have received a copy of the syllabus, which contains what you need to learn. The ACS is what the FAA will be test you on.
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Exactly this. Whether part 61 or part 91 you should know ahead of time what you should be reviewing for each flight. Your instructor should also be giving you feedback on what maneuvers you are performing correctly and what you need to practice more. A well prepared student should be able to brief the instructor on what maneuvers will be accomplished and a planned order for them. The instructor can then go over events the student has struggled with previously and answer any questions the student may have.
 
If they are a part 141 school - then essentially they prefer to do 141. Fatter paychecks, margins, overall more $$$. So some will offer part 61, as a counter to the smaller flight schools to be "competitive" but essentially they are just trying to have their cake and eat it too type of thing. You should be treated the same, but slightly different curriculum (like ground through them isnt required, checks throughout, etc) - but the reality is that you are the red headed stepchild as a 61 in a 141 school. So probably best to find a true part 61 school and go there.
 
Anthem said:
If they are a part 141 school - then essentially they prefer to do 141. Fatter paychecks, margins, overall more $$$. So some will offer part 61, as a counter to the smaller flight schools to be "competitive" but essentially they are just trying to have their cake and eat it too type of thing. You should be treated the same, but slightly different curriculum (like ground through them isnt required, checks throughout, etc) - but the reality is that you are the red headed stepchild as a 61 in a 141 school. So probably best to find a true part 61 school and go there.
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Yup. They have categorically denied this, of course, but it's painful obvious.

Today I told them I would no longer be taking lessons from them.
 
Anthem said:
If they are a part 141 school - then essentially they prefer to do 141. Fatter paychecks, margins, overall more $$$. So some will offer part 61, as a counter to the smaller flight schools to be "competitive" but essentially they are just trying to have their cake and eat it too type of thing. You should be treated the same, but slightly different curriculum (like ground through them isnt required, checks throughout, etc) - but the reality is that you are the red headed stepchild as a 61 in a 141 school. So probably best to find a true part 61 school and go there.
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Where are you getting this stuff? There are hundreds of Part 141 schools and they are not all the same.

Part 141 schools aren’t getting rich <$500 per student profit margin for ground school and a couple of phase checks.

The Part 61 students are given the option for home study or ground training for the written knowledge. Usually both are trained from the same syllabus, complete the same pre-solo tests, have the same training folders and complete the same phase checks. It’s about safety and producing a quality training program.

But since you lumped all the 141 schools together, head on down to the part 61 school where you can fly really junk planes with unsupervised instructors who don’t use a syllabus or keep any training records.
 
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Head on down to the Part 61 school where they maintain the planes well because they are on leaseback from the owners who fly them and the instructors aren’t teaching from a cookie cutter syllabus, but have the flexibility to teach to the individual.
 
ateamer said:
Head on down to the Part 61 school where they maintain the planes well because they are on leaseback from the owners who fly them and the instructors aren’t teaching from a cookie cutter syllabus, but have the flexibility to teach to the individual.
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I will say that the planes are well maintained and the syllabus is well thought-out. I just need some continuity with the instructors, and have any changes to my scheduled communicated to me so I'm not blindsided when I walk in and they say "oh we changed your CFI today". As humans not every CFI will teach the same thing the same way - they're not robots, and that's expected. So limiting the number of CFI's make learning much easier.
 
ateamer said:
If they’re a CFI, they should be able to figure out an Ercoupe in about 10 minutes. They’re an airplane, just easier to fly than a lot of others.
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I only have few hour in an Ercoupe, just enough to know there are some things to know about.

One of the complaints I here from our DPE's is they do a fair number for CFI checkrides with applicants that have only flown 1 or 2 airplanes. It is now possible to become a CFI and never flown anything but a 172.
If a CFI has only flown a 172 expecting him to learn the systems on an Ercoupe, while simple is going to be a bit of a learning curve for a CFI.
The Fuel system is a bit unique, compared to a 172, and understanding Failure modes I think is important.
I would have to fly it more to understand the nuisances of cross wind landings with it, Our local Ercoupe expert has told me there are some things to watch out for, but I need to review and perhaps fly with him again to understand it better.

Always want to be careful when flying a new airplane and understand the systems. I recall the story of the pilot flying a Comanche and when the gear would not extend normally he was observed cycling the gear up and down (i.e. Pumping the emergency gear handle) trying to get the gear to come down and ended up landing gear up. Those that know the Comanche know that is not how the emergency gear extension works. I even had a DPE have a Commercial pilot applicant do an emergency gear extension in a Comanche once. The other thing about the emergency gear extension in a Comanche is that takes about 5 hours of shop time to reset the gear after doing one, apparently the DPE didn't know, and that my student didn't want to argue with him, which he should have because I know I had taught him that. I think the shop bill probably taught him the lessons of know your systems and not to let external forces negatively affect your decision making.

Brian
CFIIG/ASEL
 
Clip4 said:
<snip>

But since you lumped all the 141 schools together, head on down to the part 61 school where you can fly really junk planes with unsupervised instructors who don’t use a syllabus or keep any training records.
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Same with lumping part 61 schools together.

Our 172(s) are maintained to part 135 standards, since the company occasionally uses them for 135 flights and are maintaining a 135 fleet anyway. The mechanic(s) come out every morning and do a inspection (walk around) of the airplane to see if it needs anything that wasn't reported.

Unsupervised or not following the syllabus can also mean...
instead of cancelling Tuesdays Lesson on intro to Take-off's and Landings due to much gusting winds for a low time student we can instead take advantage of the winds and go practice Ground Reference maneuvers or Reference to Instrument flying for lesson.

Or instead of intro to Traffic patterns and Navigation, let go fly the local Poker run or breakfast run the local pilots are doing today.

Brian
CFIIG/ASEL
 
midlifeflyer said:
Some, probably. But there are sooooo many CFIs with so little experience except in one or two types of airplanes. That means an understandable hesitation in something different, especially something in which everything your were ever taught about a crosswind landing is wrong.
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Yeah, but how many of them land that one or two types like an Ercoupe in a crosswind anyway, regardless of what they were taught? ;)
 
Clip4 said:
Where are you getting this stuff? There are hundreds of Part 141 schools and they are not all the same.

Part 141 schools aren’t getting rich <$500 per student profit margin for ground school and a couple of phase checks.

The Part 61 students are given the option for home study or ground training for the written knowledge. Usually both are trained from the same syllabus, complete the same pre-solo tests, have the same training folders and complete the same phase checks. It’s about safety and producing a quality training program.

But since you lumped all the 141 schools together, head on down to the part 61 school where you can fly really junk planes with unsupervised instructors who don’t use a syllabus or keep any training records.
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That gross, oversimplification is definitely unfair to both the Part 61 people and to the student.
 
Clip4 said:
You already posted your CFIs don’t follow the syllabus and you find things the other CFIs have missed…..
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Sometimes. But the way we work we usually catch things that were missed in a timely fashion. Fortunately, the syllabus requires students to fly with more than one CFI.
 
Gilbert Buettner said:
Sometimes. But the way we work we usually catch things that were missed in a timely fashion. Fortunately, the syllabus requires students to fly with more than one CFI.
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If this is happening, your CFIs are not following the syllabus, which happens a lot at Part 61 schools (provided the school or any of the CFIs actually have a syllabus)

If you are going to play CFI merry go round, each CFI in your organization needs to be using the syllabus lesson as a checklist. If they have not completed all the blocks of learning, they should not be progressing the student to the next lesson.

If you are using quality training folders, it is really easy to see what is being missed unless your CFIs are grading tasks they didn’t instruct.
 
Clip4 said:
If this is happening, your CFIs are not following the syllabus, which happens a lot at Part 61 schools (provided the school or any of the CFIs actually have a syllabus)

If you are going to play CFI merry go round, each CFI in your organization needs to be using the syllabus lesson as a checklist. If they have not completed all the blocks of learning, they should not be progressing the student to the next lesson.

If you are using quality training folders, it is really easy to see what is being missed unless your CFIs are grading tasks they didn’t instruct.
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Every CFI uses the same syllabus, but just like any other organization there are individuals who are less diligent than others. We have grown a lot in the past couple of years, and some of the newbies are not being monitored closely by management. It's one of my frustrations when I fly with someone else's student and see omissions.
 
Clip4 said:
On the first day, you should have received a copy of the syllabus, which contains what you need to learn. The ACS is what the FAA will be test you on.
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Neither of which will prepare you for real life.

you need to pass the test (ACS) otherwise your will become one of the 80%+ that never get ppl.

my point is that CFIs are mostly hot garbage and 141 schools are the containers that said fires start in... although PT 61 has is own pitfalls its generally cheaper for PPL.

And if you cannot tell, I am not a firm believer in the CFI system of the ability of the FAA to fix it.
 
riadanza said:
I knew this going in, and for the most part the CFI's were really good, but there was a lack of focus at times and they seemed way too overworked. If I had 2 or even 3 CFI's that were consistently assigned to my training then it wouldn't have been too much of an issue.

But 10 different CFI's in 20 lessons makes it impossible for any cohesive training.
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no, 141 schools are supposed to be regimented so that you hit goals. Teachers should get you to those goals. If they cannot then the school has failed. If the school has so many different ways of instruction then how can they offer a consistent product?
 
Gilbert Buettner said:
Every CFI uses the same syllabus, but just like any other organization there are individuals who are less diligent than others. We have grown a lot in the past couple of years, and some of the newbies are not being monitored closely by management. It's one of my frustrations when I fly with someone else's student and see omissions.
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so not only has staff failed, but management has given up on correcting the problems.

There is never a shortage of CFIs and you should be picking the cream of the crop and pay them fairly. But most schools accept that CFI are only there for 1500hrs, pay them crap, and fill the slot with the next 1500 hour wonderkind.... and then say they can't find good instructord.
 
pfarber said:
There is never a shortage of CFIs and you should be picking the cream of the crop and pay them fairly. But most schools accept that CFI are only there for 1500hrs, pay them crap, and fill the slot with the next 1500 hour wonderkind.... and then say they can't find good instructord.
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Seems to me there is a shortage of CFIs. I have received a number of inquiries to work somewhere else. The three closest flight schools are currently not offering instruction because they can't find CFIs.

I have never heard any of my fellow instructors complain about their pay. Once they reach 1,000 hours, they generally go to school in order to fly the three PC-12s and two PC-24s owned by a local business, when they are not instructing. That training is not paid by them. In my 14 years here, I can think of only one who left for an airline job. (The 1,000-hour mark is something our insurance company requires.)
 
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