PA32 down out of PDK

Kritchlow said:
Even if it is s mag (pure speculation), why is everyone blaming the pilot? Can't a mag fail just after takeoff?
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Sure it can.. And I bet the NTSB will figure it out.... If only one mag was selected.... then they will find the ignition switch in that position......

They are that GOOD....... BTDT....:sad::sad:
 
Good point Krich. That would be like the perfect storm. Hot, heavy, loose a mag and no place to land.

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I was wondering myself soon after the crash if the pilot forgot to turn off the ac as well. It doesn't zap a ton but in this situation it may have been the proverbial straw.
 
N801BH said:
You would think..... I always look down at the tach for proper RPM's while early in the take off roll..
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Wouldn't a constant speed prop hit the limit regardless of whether one or both mags were working? The difference being that with both mags working, the engine would produce more power and the prop would have more pitch at the rpm limit.
 
kyleb said:
Wouldn't a constant speed prop hit the limit regardless of whether one or both mags were working? The difference being that with both mags working, the engine would produce more power and the prop would have more pitch at the rpm limit.
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I believe so.

When I had the clogged injector on the Cardinal that I mentioned earlier in this thread, I did not see a noticeable reduction in RPM.
 
sourdough44 said:
Sounds like this is trending to be simply overweight for conditions present. He reportedly filled up all 4 tanks, then the 4 adults, luggage, medium/larger dog, and THREE golf bags.
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Weight may play a factor, but if he made it to where he did, he was flying clean and clear of obstructions. In order for me to tanker on fuel at PDK for that hop, I would have to know someone who would sell it to me at a deep discount, because that's probably the most expensive AvGas in the region, so that factor is a bit confusing though. But then there are people who believe you should never leave fuel behind.:dunno:
 
Fearless Tower said:
Over-fueling certainly can put you over-gross. I recently had an experience with ramp zombies in the Baron. I was flying my family back and we were fully loaded. My fuel order of 20 gallons per tank was entered into the system, but the night shift ramper topped it off. It was a pain to have to delay the departure sit around with impatient kids for an hour and a half waiting for the FBO maintenance folks to defuel, but had I not, we would have departed 200 lbs over-gross.
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Yeah, that's not good.:( But much better to wait it out, especially with a twin.
 
kyleb said:
Wouldn't a constant speed prop hit the limit regardless of whether one or both mags were working? The difference being that with both mags working, the engine would produce more power and the prop would have more pitch at the rpm limit.
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It depends if the power loss is significant enough to hit the fine pitch limit, but if it's just one mag and the other side of the system is all good, most likely I would think you'd make RPM.
 
Are we saying that a mag check at 2000 RPM yield a drop in rpm but a mag check at 2700 will not? I will have to test that theory but my gut tells me the Arrow wouldn't make 2700 with one mag shorted

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tmyers said:
Are we saying that a mag check at 2000 RPM yield a drop in rpm but a mag check at 2700 will not? I will have to test that theory but my gut tells me the Arrow wouldn't make 2700 with one mag shorted

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How much drop though?

You might do a mag check and only get a 25-50 RPM drop. Would you notice that on a takeoff roll? Maybe, maybe not. RPM gauge on most Pipers is down low by your right knee and not exactly in your normal field of vision.
 
48dodge said:
I was wondering myself soon after the crash if the pilot forgot to turn off the ac as well. It doesn't zap a ton but in this situation it may have been the proverbial straw.
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If he wasn't following the checklist, definitely a possibility, however very hard to leave the AC on if you are following a checklist. "AC Off" appears 3 or 4 times prior to takeoff.
 
FlyingTiger said:
If he wasn't following the checklist, definitely a possibility, however very hard to leave the AC on if you are following a checklist. "AC Off" appears 3 or 4 times prior to takeoff.
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Have you been to Georgia, in a Saratoga, during summertime? Regardless of what that checklist says, that cool air provides a real sense of comfort. I know I've forgotten it at least once.
 
Again even with high DA, near or at gross, not sure the AC on with everything else working would make this happen. Really not sure of this, but read/heard putting the AC on equates to about a 10 hp loss in engine performance.
 
tmyers said:
Are we saying that a mag check at 2000 RPM yield a drop in rpm but a mag check at 2700 will not? I will have to test that theory but my gut tells me the Arrow wouldn't make 2700 with one mag shorted

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At partial throttle and 2000 RPM you are barely off the pitch limiter if at all, so any loss of power will show as a loss of RPM. At full throttle and 2700 RPM the blades have taken a coarser position to limit overspeed. A loss of power may only cause a reduction in blade pitch while maintaining governed RPM.
 
drotto said:
Again even with high DA, near or at gross, not sure the AC on with everything else working would make this happen. Really not sure of this, but read/heard putting the AC on equates to about a 10 hp loss in engine performance.
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It depends on the compressor in use, but 3-4 is much more typical for that end of the system. The drag from the condenser coil door has a much greater affect, so an equivalent total of 10 is going to be close.
 
FlyingTiger said:
If he wasn't following the checklist, definitely a possibility, however very hard to leave the AC on if you are following a checklist. "AC Off" appears 3 or 4 times prior to takeoff.
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I know at least some of the systems have a microswitch on the quadrant that if you go full throttle & full prop it automatically cuts out the A/C.
 
Henning said:
It depends on the compressor in use, but 3-4 is much more typical for that end of the system. The drag from the condenser coil door has a much greater affect, so an equivalent total of 10 is going to be close.
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Thanks glad it is a bit less. Still even better makes the argument that AC on during takeoff is unlikely to bring the plane down.

With all that has been said, what is the best course of action in this type of situation? Power loss in climb. Attain best stable altitude with power availible, and stop trying to get higher? If that is only 200 or 300 feet that may be what you have to work with, then use availible power to get to a landing spot.
 
drotto said:
With all that has been said, what is the best course of action in this type of situation? Power loss in climb. Attain best stable altitude with power availible, and stop trying to get higher? If that is only 200 or 300 feet that may be what you have to work with, then use availible power to get to a landing spot.
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Likely about all you can do. Which it appears is what he did.

The best course of action in hindsight would have been to refuse the shorter runway and tell tower you need the longer one. If he experienced something like a mag failure/single mag, clogged injector or other power draining problem, it would have manifested itself in a longer than expected takeoff roll. The problem with that runway is that by the time he would have noticed it, it was likely too late to abort on the remaining runway and the temptation to horse it into the air takes hold.....kind of like the CRJ accident at LEX.
 
drotto said:
Thanks glad it is a bit less. Still even better makes the argument that AC on during takeoff is unlikely to bring the plane down.

With all that has been said, what is the best course of action in this type of situation? Power loss in climb. Attain best stable altitude with power availible, and stop trying to get higher? If that is only 200 or 300 feet that may be what you have to work with, then use availible power to get to a landing spot.
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If the plane takes off and climbs above the required gradient to clear terrain and obstacles, it is not a reduced power caused crash. You need horsepower to accelerate, once you have enough to out accelerate 1G you have enough, climb might not be great, but it won't make you fall from the sky. A 300hp or even 260 hp PA-32 has plenty of excess horsepower to give up and still fly as long as the runway is long enough.
 
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Cpt_Kirk said:
Have you been to Georgia, in a Saratoga, during summertime? Regardless of what that checklist says, that cool air provides a real sense of comfort. I know I've forgotten it at least once.
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I have taken off a couple times in a 414A with the AC on, it's amazing how hot that thing gets when you turn it off for 2-3 minutes! :eek: The Conquest has electric AC, so no takeoff restriction on it! :yes:
 
What is it about this one?

Usually these threads pop up and disappear.
What makes this one different?


I always wonder months later what was the cause to all the plane down threads but most sort of fade away.
 
SixPapaCharlie said:
What is it about this one?

Usually these threads pop up and disappear.
What makes this one different?


I always wonder months later what was the cause to all the plane down threads but most sort of fade away.
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That's because usually the NTSB report doesn't come out for over a year.
 
I am still curious about the hawker that went down last summer, The Meridian (I think) that went down in Argyle last year w/ the pizza store owner, the one in KFPR w/ speculation he jumped out to not be burned, and that lear that went down in Colorado where I believe there were some survivors. Also a Sierra in Denton last summer where Pilot and daughter survived but mom passed. Either his engine failed or lost pressure.

I dunno, I always want to hear the final "What went wrong" or "What went right"
but there is little follow up. Media is only interested in reporting the part where the sky rains small planes.
 
SixPapaCharlie said:
I am still curious about the hawker that went down last summer, The Meridian (I think) that went down in Argyle last year w/ the pizza store owner, the one in KFPR w/ speculation he jumped out to not be burned, and that lear that went down in Colorado where I believe there were some survivors. Also a Sierra in Denton last summer where Pilot and daughter survived but mom passed. Either his engine failed or lost pressure.

I dunno, I always want to hear the final "What went wrong" or "What went right"
but there is little follow up. Media is only interested in reporting the part where the sky rains small planes.
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If it bleeds, it leads.....:mad2:
 
SixPapaCharlie said:
I am still curious about the hawker that went down last summer, The Meridian (I think) that went down in Argyle last year w/ the pizza store owner, the one in KFPR w/ speculation he jumped out to not be burned, and that lear that went down in Colorado where I believe there were some survivors. Also a Sierra in Denton last summer where Pilot and daughter survived but mom passed. Either his engine failed or lost pressure.

I dunno, I always want to hear the final "What went wrong" or "What went right"
but there is little follow up. Media is only interested in reporting the part where the sky rains small planes.
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Yup. I always want to hear the final cause. If for no other reason than a learning experience. The answer never seems to come though.
 
SixPapaCharlie said:
I am still curious about the hawker that went down last summer, The Meridian (I think) that went down in Argyle last year w/ the pizza store owner, the one in KFPR w/ speculation he jumped out to not be burned, and that lear that went down in Colorado where I believe there were some survivors. Also a Sierra in Denton last summer where Pilot and daughter survived but mom passed. Either his engine failed or lost pressure.

I dunno, I always want to hear the final "What went wrong" or "What went right"
but there is little follow up. Media is only interested in reporting the part where the sky rains small planes.
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Yep, you have to keep monitoring the NTSB website for a couple of years to find finals.
 
Remember the twin that went down and only an 8 yr old girl walked away; like miles through the forest and found a house?
I am curious about that one as well.
 
Kritchlow said:
Yup. I always want to hear the final cause. If for no other reason than a learning experience. The answer never seems to come though.
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NTSB does not produce "answers" unless it's an airliner. GA they just give data, however if you read between the lines a bit and understand the data points and what they mean, along with how they phrase things, you can make reasonable inferences.
 
SixPapaCharlie said:
What is it about this one?

Usually these threads pop up and disappear.
What makes this one different?
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In many GA accidents, we get some tidbit of info that indicates the pilot did something really dumb....ran the airplane out of gas, flew into a t-storm, got too slow in a twin on one engine, flew into ice....etc and we move on. We can assess it as 'don't depart the reservation of our original flight training and that won't happen to us'

What makes this different is that (at least so far) it looks like an accident that could have happened to anyone. Heck, I am not so sure even Bob Hoover could have flown out of this one.

For those of us that continue to commit acts of flight, that can be a tough pill to swallow: acknowledging that the no-win scenario does exist and it could happen to you.
 
Fearless Tower said:
For those of us that continue to commit acts of flight, that can be a tough pill to swallow: acknowledging that the no-win scenario does exist and it could happen to you.
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That's the voice in my head on take-off roll at my home airport. No matter which direction, there are NO good options. Off one runway is nothing but forest for miles, of the other is some water to put it down in, or forest and suburbs.
 
Would it be morbid to have an accident forum? It would be nice to see the follow up on a lot of these crashes. As it is, threads like this scroll off the front page and we never hear what went wrong.
 
noobJohn said:
Would it be morbid to have an accident forum? It would be nice to see the follow up on a lot of these crashes. As it is, threads like this scroll off the front page and we never hear what went wrong.
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I think it is actually a good idea. The other aviation boards that I participate in (ProPilotWorld/BeechTalk) have an accident subforum.

It actually works well - you'll have the initial discussion and then the thread will sit for a year or so and get updated when the report comes out rather than just fall into oblivion.
 
gitmo234 said:
That's the voice in my head on take-off roll at my home airport. No matter which direction, there are NO good options. Off one runway is nothing but forest for miles, of the other is some water to put it down in, or forest and suburbs.
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Statistically forest is not a bad place to put a plane down. I'd take a forest any day over built up areas.
 
Fearless Tower said:
In many GA accidents, we get some tidbit of info that indicates the pilot did something really dumb....ran the airplane out of gas, flew into a t-storm, got too slow in a twin on one engine, flew into ice....etc and we move on. We can assess it as 'don't depart the reservation of our original flight training and that won't happen to us'

What makes this different is that (at least so far) it looks like an accident that could have happened to anyone. Heck, I am not so sure even Bob Hoover could have flown out of this one.

For those of us that continue to commit acts of flight, that can be a tough pill to swallow: acknowledging that the no-win scenario does exist and it could happen to you.
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Yep, long ago I just accepted that one day I would be done here as the inevitable result of being here. Personally I would prefer to die of my own stupidity than someone else's, and while I'm here I'd like to experience everything I decide I want to. In the intervening 40 years I have stood in the middle of something I did that went way wrong and wondered, "Wow, how the hell am I still standing much less alive, and just what does it take to kill me?":lol:

I treat this stuff more with curiosity than concern, as I have come to accept that even in the most major catastrophic events, death is still random and people walk away, yet at the same time, people randomly die in the most mundane of everyday activities. It's really not worth worrying about or changing my ways to try to protect my life which is really unprotectable.
 
mtuomi said:
Statistically forest is not a bad place to put a plane down. I'd take a forest any day over built up areas.
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From what I've read/seen, the preferred method being to stall into the tops of the trees.
 
gitmo234 said:
From what I've read/seen, the preferred method being to stall into the tops of the trees.
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My instructor drilled it into my head practically every lesson, stall the airplane to landing everytime whether it be runway, a field, water or tree tops. MCA everytime.
 
gitmo234 said:
From what I've read/seen, the preferred method being to stall into the tops of the trees.
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NO! Do NOT stall it, you want to be moving forward nose high, not dropping in. The tree tops are soft and absorb energy quite nicely. I have removed several planes from trees and all of them the people walked away with minor injuries. Just find as even of a growth stand as you can and perform a nice soft field landing at the lowest speed you can control.
 
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