Pa28 spar as a renter?

Velocity173 said:
Yeah when the ERAU crash came out I got on NTSB and did a search. Put “inflight breakup” in the remarks and that brings up some of them. Gotta dig deeper to find the rest. Everyone thinks of the high time PA28 that was a pipeline inspector and the ERAU one, but there’s plenty of others. Some aren’t even listed on NTSB because they happened in other countries. You’ll see some PA32s and PA24s as well.
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We had one in NW GA a few years ago when (IIRC) a couple of "kid" instructors were out jacking around doing acro.
 
kyleb said:
We had one in NW GA a few years ago when (IIRC) a couple of "kid" instructors were out jacking around doing acro.
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Nomenclatures will get ya. They probably saw PA-28R and thought oh yeah this thing can acro it says so right here in the brochure! :D
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Sooo, I don't fly an Arrow or Pipers in general. But for a high hour Arrow, were I to fly it, I would like to know that the spar had been recently inspected, like at least within a couple years. That's just me.
 
hindsight2020 said:
Nomenclatures will get ya. They probably saw PA-28R and thought oh yeah this thing can acro it says so right here in the brochure!
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I always thought that was a fugly airplane. I think the one that came from together in NW Georgia was a Cherokee 6.
 
Mtns2Skies said:
I also once heard (but have not verified) that no strut-winged Cessna has had a wing failure while flown under-gross and under-VNE.
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If you rule the times that wings have fallen off due to things like overstressing due to aerobatics or thunderstorms, or maintenance problems (not putting the nut on the strut bolt), and corrosion, then, yes. That is probably true. They don't fall off for no reason at all.
 
GRG55 said:
As others have pointed out already, you are behaving irrationally. There's not a lot of room for that in aviation if you want to fly safely and successfully for years to come. Every single time you get into a light GA airplane you face risks of far higher probabilities than a wing falling off a Piper Arrow. You should maybe think about taking up some other pastime.
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If every pilot who ever had a misconception about relative risks quit aviation, there would be no pilots left.
 
kyleb said:
I always thought that was a fugly airplane. I think the one that came from together in NW Georgia was a Cherokee 6.
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Fun factoid. The fuse of the Pillán is a Cherokee six fuselage, they just didn't know what nomenclature to put it under since there was already a PA-32R-300, so they call it PA-28R-300 for convenience. It is in all volumetric regards an aerobatic Lance, not an aerobatic Arrow.
 
Dan Thomas said:
he likely has little or no frame of reference to make any judgements to put this thing in perspective. That's why he came to this forum, to see what experienced guys think about it.
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Yes, I am a low time pilot compared to others, but no I didn't come to see what experiences guys think about it, I have been reading articles and books written by more experienced people about this and about other topics in aviation since I started training in 2018 and I am taking more serious than some tough acting cowboys here, you had the wrong idea and impression, other pilots here saying that the wing problem on that aircraft simply worries me have more true to their impression than what you mentioned.
Since I seem to get so much beating here from more "experienced" people, let me mention that safety is everyone's job so when someone brings up a certain concern even if you think this is overthinking, or over-worrying you can express your opinion professionally without making the other guy look like he's somehow ignorant, or beneath you somehow. After all this is an aviation forum and debating is what it is for, if I'm wrong tell me.
 
Just accept the fact that sometimes, aircraft come from together.

Occasionally while flying in turbulence, I’ll imagine the wing separating or the mast flying out of the transmission in the helicopter. I visualize the sensations involved in that. When you do that, you’ll come to grips with your own mortality and flying becomes so much more pleasurable.
 
Velocity173 said:
Occasionally while flying in turbulence, I’ll imagine the wing separating or the mast flying out of the transmission in the helicopter. I visualize the sensations involved in that. When you do that, you’ll come to grips with your own mortality and flying becomes so much more pleasurable.
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I do that mentally too every time I am in turbulence, just think that this is it, time has come.
 
aeronav said:
After all this is an aviation forum and debating is what it is for...
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Exactly. You brought up a valid point and you were given direct, up-front responses from more experienced people in the same manner as they received answers back when they asked similar questions. If you perceive that as a "beating" well I can't help you there. Did the responses include some opinions as well, sure. But that is what a debate is all about, a collection of opinions. As from a safety point, the collective response/guidance you were given was that PA-28 wing failure was not on the list you should concern yourself with at your current experience level as there are other situations you should prioritize first. Here's one such list which you will find does not mention PA-28 wing failures:
https://www.faa.gov/tv/?mediaId=522
 
aeronav said:
I do that mentally too every time I am in turbulence, just think that this is it, time has come.
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Well, if you’re doing it every time in turbulence, you might be obsessing a bit. Hopefully that’s not creating stress...no pun intended.

Nothing wrong with confronting the demons that a lot of people suppress in the back of their minds. Too many pilots are too romantic about flight. It’s all “oh I have slipped the surly bonds of earth” nonsense and they don’t fully understand the reality of what can go wrong. And I’m not just referring to structural failures either. There are various ways that aviation could end us. Be very aware of those risks but also understand that the odds of those risks rearing their head are slim (IMO).
 
Mtns2Skies said:
I also once heard (but have not verified) that no strut-winged Cessna has had a wing failure while flown under-gross and under-VNE.
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Not yet, maybe. It will start soon enough, based on what I used to see when inspecting airplanes. Too many cheap annuals, too little looking, too little money spent on quality inspections. Cessna has SIDs on all this sort of thing, and using them, we found some problems. Did you know that the struts can crack at the big rivets that hold the end fittings in the strut tube? Found that on a floatplane. Floatplanes are hard on stuff when they bounce across the waves at speed. It's rough. Did you know that there is a lap joint in the wing spars near the strut attach point, and that the overlapping reinforcement plates get corrosion starting under them, corrosion that eats the spar? One has to look for bulging in that plate.


Does your airplane get that sort of inspection? Based on what I've seen, many airplanes never get the interior panels and carpet taken out to look at the structure. I've encountered airplanes with their wing inspection panel screws rusted in solid. Haven't been out for many years. Disgusting.
 
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I look after a very old PA28-160. One of the first 250 off the assembly line.

It has all the AD required extra inspection panels. It had the tanks pulled at import for SB1006, plus I did that as well to run wiring to the wingtips. I have told the owner he should seriously consider adding the baggage compartment panels and the forward wing panels, even though they are not mandated. That said, I have an awesome little boroscope that I have had in all the hard to reach areas and have certified the annual with no qualms about the well aged structure. The centre support structure looks almost new. I have had the stabilator off and checked all the bearings and structure back there thoroughly. It likes to loosen off over time and especially if it has been spun.

A wiggle here and a listen there, listening and feeling for FSN's (funny sounding noises - an old Rolls Royce term) during pre-flight is not too much to ask of any airframe or pilot.
 
Mtns2Skies said:
Ahhh I see that now, poor grammar - my bad. I think 210's rip their wings off quite regularly :eek:
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Well, when a carrythrough has been pre-soaking in moisture for 50 years like a soggy sugar wafer, that tends to happen. They don't make the sugar wafers either, so that makes the economics of wanting to look at the thing with a microscope just as scary as choosing not to look at the thing. Pencil whipping and denialisms abounds.

Joking aside, that's why I keep my capex low in this category of the hobby. The perennial threat of popup ADs keep me from gambling more than I would otherwise. Everybody has their own risk tolerance for this stupid games stupid prizes monopoly money affair :D. To quote Rounders: You only lose what you put in the middle.
 
Mtns2Skies said:
Ahhh I see that now, poor grammar - my bad. I think 210's rip their wings off quite regularly :eek:
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From what I've read, it's often loss of control in IMC. Bonanzas are another one. The VFR pilot gets into IMC, gets disoriented, thinks the airplane is turning so corrects the other way. It wasn't turning but now it is and he doesn't figure it out from the instruments. He's in a spiral dive because he has no back pressure on the elevator, and the airspeed climbs quickly past Vne on these fast airplanes. Suddenly he pops out of the cloud, sees the ground coming, and pulls back hard, overloading the stabilizer and it fails downward. Without its downforce the airplane flops over onto its back and the wings fail downward; the structural limits for inverted loads are smaller than for positive.
 
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Dan Thomas said:
....He's in a spiral dive because he has no back pressure on the elevator....
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I was under the impression that pulling back on the elevator would make a spiral dive worse. I've been taught to level the wings first.
 
Just a couple hours ago.. the wings (both of them) stayed on!
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Yes, I flew during this. No, I saw no one else. Yes, I socially distanced. Yes, I preached stay at home.. but with no end in site I do also want to keep my flying skills and exercise some of my freedoms while I'm still allowed them. It was actually *very* busy in the air.. the airport was quieter than usual, though not dead.. 3 others pre-flighting when I was there, and the coastal rt here was buzzing with traffic as low as 700' up to around 3,500'
 
Tantalum said:
Just a couple hours ago.. the wings (both of them) stayed on!
View attachment 84070

Yes, I flew during this. No, I saw no one else. Yes, I socially distanced. Yes, I preached stay at home.. but with no end in site I do also want to keep my flying skills and exercise some of my freedoms while I'm still allowed them. It was actually *very* busy in the air.. the airport was quieter than usual, though not dead.. 3 others pre-flighting when I was there, and the coastal rt here was buzzing with traffic as low as 700' up to around 3,500'
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I flew an Archer last night and knock on wood, the wings stayed on too...
 
Palmpilot said:
I was under the impression that pulling back on the elevator would make a spiral dive worse
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Ryanb said:
So have I. Unload the wings, then recover from the nose down attitude
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That's also what I've been taught in order to *recover*.. however, I think Dan meant that the person ends up in a descent because they didn't have enough back pressure on the elevator to begin with (IE, bad trim).. so they're descending, but they don't realize it. Their ears tell them they're turning, but they're not, so they start turning to correct the (wrong) perception.. and next thing you know their descending and turning.. pilot sees the high descent rate, panics, and pulls up, loading up the wings and pulling them off

Dan Thomas said:
He's in a spiral dive because he has no back pressure on the elevator
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Right?
 
Tantalum said:
Just a couple hours ago.. the wings (both of them) stayed on!
View attachment 84070

Yes, I flew during this. No, I saw no one else. Yes, I socially distanced. Yes, I preached stay at home.. but with no end in site I do also want to keep my flying skills and exercise some of my freedoms while I'm still allowed them. It was actually *very* busy in the air.. the airport was quieter than usual, though not dead.. 3 others pre-flighting when I was there, and the coastal rt here was buzzing with traffic as low as 700' up to around 3,500'
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i used to rent a PA28 and fly off La Jolla as well. With all the yanking and banking I did, I’m surprised the wings did stay on. :D
 
aeronav said:
That is statistically True, but attempting to glide an aircraft after engine out to safety in comparison to a wing falling off and entirely losing control is not a fair comparison IMO.
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I believe he was talking about the engine failure you die in, one is a open coffin the other should the wing fail a closed coffin either way dead is dead.
 
Tantalum said:
Just a couple hours ago.. the wings (both of them) stayed on!
View attachment 84070

Yes, I flew during this. No, I saw no one else. Yes, I socially distanced. Yes, I preached stay at home.. but with no end in site I do also want to keep my flying skills and exercise some of my freedoms while I'm still allowed them. It was actually *very* busy in the air.. the airport was quieter than usual, though not dead.. 3 others pre-flighting when I was there, and the coastal rt here was buzzing with traffic as low as 700' up to around 3,500'
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Palmpilot said:
I was under the impression that pulling back on the elevator would make a spiral dive worse. I've been taught to level the wings first.
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Yup, but when the ground is coming so fast the urge to pull back first is strong...
 
Tantalum said:
.. however, I think Dan meant that the person ends up in a descent because they didn't have enough back pressure on the elevator to begin with (IE, bad trim).. so they're descending, but they don't realize it. Their ears tell them they're turning, but they're not, so they start turning to correct the (wrong) perception.. and next thing you know their descending and turning.. pilot sees the high descent rate, panics, and pulls up, loading up the wings and pulling them off
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No. That's not what I meant. Go up and try it sometime. Put the airplane into a 30 or 40-degree bank an d let go of the controls and see what happens. When a VFR pilot gets into IMC his inner ear starts to tell him lies, making him think he's turning when he's actually not. He corrects the other way, thinking he's stopping the turn, but now he's actually banked and turning, and without elevator back pressure, he enters the deadly spiral. We used to teach this stuff under the hood, and it usually wasn't too long before the new IFR student was in the spiral.
 
Dan Thomas said:
No. That's not what I meant. Go up and try it sometime. Put the airplane into a 30 or 40-degree bank an d let go of the controls and see what happens. When a VFR pilot gets into IMC his inner ear starts to tell him lies, making him think he's turning when he's actually not. He corrects the other way, thinking he's stopping the turn, but now he's actually banked and turning, and without elevator back pressure, he enters the deadly spiral. We used to teach this stuff under the hood, and it usually wasn't too long before the new IFR student was in the spiral.
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Hmm.. yes, okay. A turn will require back pressure since the component of lift has changed.. part of that lift is going "sideways" so you need more lift to keep the plane at the same altitude. That's pretty basic stuff though, I would imagine most people 15-20 hrs into training would master that.. steep turns are a great demonstrator of that. Granted, I would also assume people are able to keep a plane right side up by looking at the gauges, yet the accident facts prove otherwise. Why are people scared of clouds? Even if VFR aren't most people already looking at the gauges to maintain course and altitude?
 
Tantalum said:
...Why are people scared of clouds? Even if VFR aren't most people already looking at the gauges to maintain course and altitude?
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Perhaps because too many of them have seen that panic-inducing "178 Seconds to Live" video!
 
PaulS said:
Level the wings first in a spiral, not intuitive to the uninitiated ;).
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And certainly not intuitive to the guy who is already panicked because the G forces are building and the wind noise is awsome and suddenly the trees look real close.
 
Tantalum said:
Hmm.. yes, okay. A turn will require back pressure since the component of lift has changed.. part of that lift is going "sideways" so you need more lift to keep the plane at the same altitude. That's pretty basic stuff though, I would imagine most people 15-20 hrs into training would master that.. steep turns are a great demonstrator of that. Granted, I would also assume people are able to keep a plane right side up by looking at the gauges, yet the accident facts prove otherwise. Why are people scared of clouds? Even if VFR aren't most people already looking at the gauges to maintain course and altitude?
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Go get some actual hood time with an instructor. Things get real clear pretty quick. Too many VFR pilots have never experienced vertigo.
 
Dan Thomas said:
Go get some actual hood time with an instructor. Things get real clear pretty quick. Too many VFR pilots have never experienced vertigo.
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Thanks. I'm IR and have plenty of simulated and actual IMC
 
^most of that time, about 2/3, are in a mid 70s PA28 with no glass

I get what you're saying. Sure, to some, they pull up, and whatever they make a situation worse.. like the dude who was annoyed at the controller because he lost coordination in IMC somewhere in Hawaii. But objectively this stuff is not hard.. you just have to put your body into "autopilot mode" and ignore your sensations and just fly the plane. Ball centered.. AI and TC level (if that's what you need to do) and altitude stable. If you have to turn, be gently, and never more than standard rate

It's not some big hairy goblin, I just think many people don't approach flying in the clouds with the right mindset. But that's not unique to the PA28 wing spar.. hell, there are broken Bonanzas, 210s, etc., that have met their demise from poor piloting.
 
Velocity173 said:
i used to rent a PA28 and fly off La Jolla as well. With all the yanking and banking I did, I’m surprised the wings did stay on.
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Funny you mention that, there was someone giving position reports at the top and bottom of their spiral dives.. "white and blue Cessna, 3 miles offshore the race track, practicing spiral dives" .. I can't say I'd ever heard that before!
 
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