Owner maintenance / painting wing tips

Country Flier

Country Flier

Cleared for Takeoff
Joined
Sep 20, 2019
Messages
1,058
Display Name
Display name:
CFL
I'm considering some aftermarket wing tips and after reading the regs, I think I can paint them myself as the aircraft owner without A&P signoff, but...

I'd like to have my mechanic install the tips while still just the white gel coat (they are going to require drilling holes for the install). Then I'd remove them, paint them, and re-install. Is the uninstall/reinstall of the tips considered "a disassembly of a primary structure"? And yes, I'll also ask my mechanic, but he's a busy man and I'd like to have some idea first...
 
Yep, sounds like you’re legal for that and going about it the right way also. What type of airplane is it?
 
Jdm said:
Yep, sounds like you’re legal for that and going about it the right way also. What type of airplane is it?
Click to expand...
Great! The tips are a cosmetic mod, not a performance one...the originals are crazed and look rough. They are going on a little PA-38 I picked up for my son to get his PPL in.
 
I am not so sure, I would get your mechanic blessing first which I bet you will.
Replacing wing tip must be done by a AP? Is that true?
If so he may not be wanting you to take em off again ?

Paint em first and be done with it. Less on and off is less wear and tear on your plane. My two cents.
Good luck with it, glad you are doing your part keeping these old planes in good shape.
 
I think the OP needs to have them drilled in place. That is why he is having the AnP install, match drill and then remove so he can paint them and then put them back on himself. At worst I suspect the AnP will want him to do the removal and install under his (AnP) supervision.
 
  • Like
Reactions: Jdm
Gary Ward said:
Paint em first and be done with it. Less on and off is less wear and tear on your plane.
Click to expand...

I would fit them first then paint them, especially if it is a composite part. Composite parts often need massaging to fit well. I expect that whatever wing tips are bought will be no exception.
 
  • Like
Reactions: Jdm
mondtster said:
I would fit them first then paint them, especially if it is a composite part. Composite parts often need massaging to fit well. I expect that whatever wing tips are bought will be no exception.
Click to expand...

Makes sense.
Don’t disagree.
If you’re mechanic will fit them and let you paint them would be the best.
I would not recommend taking them off again and recommend painting them on the plane if you had to.

Getting out the sometimes rusty screws is a challenge and easy to cause unnecessary wear. A PA18 maybe a different story as the installation?

Who makes the best wing tips for a 172? I am thinking Knots2You?

Good luck
 
If they were painted off the plane, shortly after being fitted, the screws should not be rusty.
 
(9) of preventive maintenance. A wing tip is not primary structure. Your good to go, unless the wing tip is a tip tank, then it needs an a&p as a fuel tank is an operating system.
 
It’s not like your mechanic is going to just drill and install, then you have to remove everything. In reality, you’re mechanic will put it on and of a number of times while fitting it properly. On the last fit check he’ll confirm proper fairing alignment and hole clearances. After that final fit he’ll probably just hand it to you for painting, or will leave it attached by a couple of screws. When painting is complete he can then put it on permanently, or you can do it yourself.

Here’s a pic of the last one I installed. I probably put it on temporarily and off 5 times before I was happy with the fit.
 

Attachments

  • A6C29287-AAC4-4960-B9BA-8A88B909AA09.png
    A6C29287-AAC4-4960-B9BA-8A88B909AA09.png
    613.1 KB · Views: 36
Pretty simple to make a drilling template using the old tips. Not a difficult swap.
 
Stewartb said:
Pretty simple to make a drilling template using the old tips. Not a difficult swap.
Click to expand...

Sometimes yes, but not always. I’ve had it where the old ones didn’t fit right in the first place. I’ve also had new ones that required trimming to fit properly. Regardless, the A&P will get that part right.
 
I’ve never installed one that I thought fit acceptably on the first try.
 
Country Flier said:
I'm considering some aftermarket wing tips and after reading the regs, I think I can paint them myself as the aircraft owner without A&P signoff, but...
Click to expand...

See if you can find a local homebuilder (aka builder of an experimental airplane) to help you. This shouldn't be a hard project - it might require a number of iterations (sanding, filling, shaping, drilling) to make it fit properly, but this is a job most homebuilders could do fairly easily.
 
Rcmutz said:
I think the OP needs to have them drilled in place. That is why he is having the AnP install, match drill and then remove so he can paint them and then put them back on himself. At worst I suspect the AnP will want him to do the removal and install under his (AnP) supervision.
Click to expand...
Painting the tips, also the removal and installation are preventative maint under FAR 43 appendix A. As long as you are a ppl or the owner/operatior you can make a FAR 43.9 entry and sign it.

Drilling the holes would be a minor alteration so an airframe certificated mx will have to do it and log it.

I'm constantly amazed at how many people say they know mx's that are going to sign off work they didn't do.

I have yet to talk to an mx that would do this.
 
I watched them do mine. It's easy. Get, or make, a strap duplicator. Put painter's tape around the edge of the wing (Because they put painter's tape on everything). Slide the tip on. Make sure the same amount of tape is showing around the perimeter of the wing tip. Step back and look for fit. Do that several times. When you're happy, slide the duplicator between the new wingtip and the end of the wing. Engage the prong in a hole, and then line up the top portion of the strap. Drill. Drop a screw in just to keep things from shifting. Drill the rest of the holes adding placeholder screws as you go.

The best way to mount wingtips is the way Piper does it. Larger holes in the wingtip and Tinnerman "dish" washers. Debur everything. Stress from the screw heads is spread over the washer, and the large diameter of the hole in the plastic. Very unlikely to crack even if you overtighten the screws.
 
pfarber said:
I'm constantly amazed at how many people say they know mx's that are going to sign off work they didn't do.

I have yet to talk to an mx that would do this.
Click to expand...

Not sure what or who are "mx's", but you're not an A&P. ;)
 
pfarber said:
I'm constantly amazed at how many people say they know mx's that are going to sign off work they didn't do.

I have yet to talk to an mx that would do this.
Click to expand...

On the other hand, I have always ensured the A&Ps I’ve selected are willing to work with me on sharing maintenance activities.

My responsibility is to develop the needed trust and to demonstrate the communication and competency to play my part in that relationship.
 
Doc Holliday said:
Not sure what or who are "mx's", but you're not an A&P. ;)
Click to expand...
Oddly enough i have that funny Orville and Wilbur credit card that says otherwise.

How many of these 'supervised' log entries have you made?
 
ElPaso Pilot said:
On the other hand, I have always ensured the A&Ps I’ve selected are willing to work with me on sharing maintenance activities.

My responsibility is to develop the needed trust and to demonstrate the communication and competency to play my part in that relationship.
Click to expand...

I have not met one that openly admitted to supervising. Fact is its the AnP that will face action if things go wrong. Civil liability is an entirely new can o worms.

Why would a sane AnP play russian roulette with two rounds on the revolver?
 
Why is it Russian Roulette? Isn’t it the supervising A&P’s responsibility to make sure the supervised individual does it correctly?

Seems to me that if it is done the way it is supposed to be done, there is no difference in liability than if the A&P did it himself.
 
1st round is FAA enforcement.
2nd round is civil liability.

You really need to understand 43.9.

"The signature constitutes the approval for return to service only for the work performed. "

If Bob screws up something Billy signed off, Bob isn't responsible. Billy eats it.

Now that entry is in the permanent record and for the end of time that AnP is on the hook for that work. Well technically only 1 year but who knows an owner to remove entries per 91.417??
 
pfarber said:
1st round is FAA enforcement.
2nd round is civil liability.

You really need to understand 43.9.

"The signature constitutes the approval for return to service only for the work performed. "

If Bob screws up something Billy signed off, Bob isn't responsible. Billy eats it.

Now that entry is in the permanent record and for the end of time that AnP is on the hook for that work. Well technically only 1 year but who knows an owner to remove entries per 91.417??
Click to expand...

You're the ultimate wannabe here, and you're not fooling anyone. And your lack of working knowledge on maintenance regs and practices proves it.
 
pfarber said:
I have not met one that openly admitted to supervising. Fact is its the AnP that will face action if things go wrong. Civil liability is an entirely new can o worms.
Why would a sane AnP play russian roulette with two rounds on the revolver?
Click to expand...

78409495.jpg
 
pfarber said:
1st round is FAA enforcement.
2nd round is civil liability.
Click to expand...

Not exactly. There’s no order. You can be hit with a civil suit regardless of FAA infraction, even if the FAA clears you of all wrong doing.

Just look at O.J. Works kinda the same way. He was a football player who latter turned felon. Probably before your time.
 
Jdm said:
Not exactly. There’s no order. You can be hit with a civil suit regardless of FAA infraction, even if the FAA clears you of all wrong doing.

Just look at O.J. Works kinda the same way. He was a football player who latter turned felon. Probably before your time.
Click to expand...
No no no randos on the net know all these AnPs that will sign anything for a case of beer.

Ive seen logs that go back for 70 years on jillions of AC and not one supervision sign off.

But hey, the internet can't be wrong.

And its telling how people say your incorrect yet never have anything other that keyboard clicks to prove it.

Randos on the internet... Discuss!
 
pfarber said:
I have not met one that openly admitted to supervising. Fact is its the AnP that will face action if things go wrong. Civil liability is an entirely new can o worms.

Why would a sane AnP play russian roulette with two rounds on the revolver?
Click to expand...

Hmm, do you think that EVERYONE working in every shop has their A&P???????
 
Pinecone said:
Hmm, do you think that EVERYONE working in every shop has their A&P???????
Click to expand...
MRO/repair station, of course not.

Parent is not in an apprentice/OJT role. But specifically an owner that wants to be supervised.

There is a huge difference between a shop helper and someone trying to work off OJT hours.

I would hazard to guess that since the early 2000s the number of OJTs working on hours is less than 1%.. more like .001%

They just don't last long enough to complete the hours or cannot find a shop wanting the liability.
 
My point was, there is a LOT of work performed by non-A&P that is signed off by an A&P.

No, you are not going to walk into any shop that does not know you and have then sign off work you have done. But if the shop knows you, and trusts you, they will. Maybe the first few times, they will want to take a VERY close look at what you did and how you did it.
 
You must log in or register to reply here.
Back
Top