Overweight?

U

updraft

Filing Flight Plan
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May 26, 2019
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Updraft
My other pilot can make this trip non-stop! So, I’m new to this outfit, do I go along to get along, do I take off knowing that I’m overweight or do I tell my owner that his plane cannot legally make this trip without stopping for fuel?
 
kgruber said:
Tell your owner to buy a jet.
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A Citation can go anywhere nonstop...at least, that’s what the owner said about his airplane that took off something like 800 pounds over gross to do it.

Having a jet just means you get to the fuel stop faster.
 
You probably shouldn't stand on the tail of your new SF50 Vision. Just sayin.'
 
Stingray Don said:
Are you really asking if it is okay to break the law and violate a basic safety protocol?

If you don’t know the answer, then you should not be a PIC.
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Technically, it's only a regulation, not a law. But the FAA does care, but they only check if they are investigating a smoking hole.
 
Stingray Don said:
Are you really asking if it is okay to break the law and violate a basic safety protocol?

If you don’t know the answer, then you should not be a PIC.
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Thanks Don! No, I’m actually probing the community for better responses than what I came up with ...... “better get your other pilot to fly this trip”
 
kgruber said:
Tell your owner to buy a jet.
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Thanks Gruber! It is a (light) jet! With 6 pax seats and 2 crew seats! Someone (identity withheld to protect the guilty) suggested they buy a midsize jet recently but the owner didn’t want the added operating expense. Now same someone wants their pilot to fly a nonstop flight to a overwater international destination with limited alternates or options with 2 crew and 4 pax carrying vacation luggage.
 
Lots of light jets can take off way overweight.
The biggest problem is what happens when you lose one right after V1?
All bets on continuing safely may have been effectively eliminated by your choice on the ramp a few minutes before.
Time to pull on the big boy pants. Can be difficult to tell the owner without throwing the other pilot under the bus. Have the books out and a sample W&B to explain this all to him.
The times you really earn your paycheck, as a paid pilot, are the times you have to say No to the boss. He may never appreciate all the times you did this and saved his butt.
 
Let'sgoflying! said:
Lots of light jets can take off way overweight.
The biggest problem is what happens when you lose one right after V1?
All bets on continuing safely may have been effectively eliminated by your choice on the ramp a few minutes before.
Time to pull on the big boy pants. Can be difficult to tell the owner without throwing the other pilot under the bus. Have the books out and a sample W&B to explain this all to him.
The times you really earn your paycheck, as a paid pilot, are the times you have to say No to the boss. He may never appreciate all the times you did this and saved his butt.
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Unfortunately, lots of jets also take off within the certified max takeoff weight, and even within the “maximum weight to achieve climb requirements”, but still don’t have safe options if an engine quits after V1.
 
If you’re effecting the flight range of a jet by being overweight, then you are seriously overweight. If you weigh 200 pounds more than the other pilot, that’s about what, 10 - 12 minutes in a light jet?
 
Let'sgoflying! said:
Lots of light jets can take off way overweight.
The biggest problem is what happens when you lose one right after V1?
All bets on continuing safely may have been effectively eliminated by your choice on the ramp a few minutes before.
Time to pull on the big boy pants. Can be difficult to tell the owner without throwing the other pilot under the bus. Have the books out and a sample W&B to explain this all to him.
The times you really earn your paycheck, as a paid pilot, are the times you have to say No to the boss. He may never appreciate all the times you did this and saved his butt.
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Thanks LGF! When I posted this I never figured that I would have to defend myself or suppress my ego to keep my responses in check. Your argument is exactly the same as mine, the non-pilot owner is depending on his captain to make the “safest” decisions and the intention of getting there non-stop would not matter if we crashed on departure due to an engine failure because we were overweight. There is no way to educate the owner without implicating the senior “someone” who has been getting by this way for years. My only choice here is to walk away and look for another gig. I’m still hoping to find a creative way to say “I’m fired”
 
updraft said:
My other pilot can make this trip non-stop! So, I’m new to this outfit, do I go along to get along, do I take off knowing that I’m overweight or do I tell my owner that his plane cannot legally make this trip without stopping for fuel?
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Wow, this tread turned into a goat rope!
It’s no wonder politicians can’t agree on anything! Everyone has their own agenda .... lemme see, since this thread started 1) My competency to act as PIC is in question 2) I must have slept through 9 years of training at Flight Safety on this aircraft 3) I don’t know the diff between law and regulation 4) I have never considered calculation of 1st, 2nd or 3rd segment climb gradients 5) I must be as arrogant as an owner pilot 6) I must be wearing little boy pants 7) The best one is that I weigh 450 pounds naked. Ha ha, the list goes on ........ the original question was “take the job knowing it’s messed up or find a way to say no without making everyone think that you are just another disgruntled ex-employee out to make the ex-boss look bad?” I had already decided not to take the job, I just wanted your opinions on how to fire my employer.
 
updraft said:
Wow, this tread turned into a goat rope!
It’s no wonder politicians can’t agree on anything! Everyone has their own agenda .... lemme see, since this thread started 1) My competency to act as PIC is in question 2) I must have slept through 9 years of training at Flight Safety on this aircraft 3) I don’t know the diff between law and regulation 4) I have never considered calculation of 1st, 2nd or 3rd segment climb gradients 5) I must be as arrogant as an owner pilot 6) I must be wearing little boy pants 7) The best one is that I weigh 450 pounds naked. Ha ha, the list goes on ........ the original question was “take the job knowing it’s messed up or find a way to say no without making everyone think that you are just another disgruntled ex-employee out to make the ex-boss look bad?” I had already decided not to take the job, I just wanted your opinions on how to fire my employer.
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Welcome to POA, where molehills are turned into Mt. Everest. :D
 
updraft said:
Wow, this tread turned into a goat rope!
It’s no wonder politicians can’t agree on anything! Everyone has their own agenda .... lemme see, since this thread started 1) My competency to act as PIC is in question 2) I must have slept through 9 years of training at Flight Safety on this aircraft 3) I don’t know the diff between law and regulation 4) I have never considered calculation of 1st, 2nd or 3rd segment climb gradients 5) I must be as arrogant as an owner pilot 6) I must be wearing little boy pants 7) The best one is that I weigh 450 pounds naked. Ha ha, the list goes on ........ the original question was “take the job knowing it’s messed up or find a way to say no without making everyone think that you are just another disgruntled ex-employee out to make the ex-boss look bad?” I had already decided not to take the job, I just wanted your opinions on how to fire my employer.
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It's Sunday. Bunch of the crew were off drinking beer and watching the Indy 500. You got off lightly. :D
 
updraft said:
Wow, this tread turned into a goat rope!
It’s no wonder politicians can’t agree on anything! Everyone has their own agenda .... lemme see, since this thread started 1) My competency to act as PIC is in question 2) I must have slept through 9 years of training at Flight Safety on this aircraft 3) I don’t know the diff between law and regulation 4) I have never considered calculation of 1st, 2nd or 3rd segment climb gradients 5) I must be as arrogant as an owner pilot 6) I must be wearing little boy pants 7) The best one is that I weigh 450 pounds naked. Ha ha, the list goes on ........ the original question was “take the job knowing it’s messed up or find a way to say no without making everyone think that you are just another disgruntled ex-employee out to make the ex-boss look bad?” I had already decided not to take the job, I just wanted your opinions on how to fire my employer.
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In your original post you didn’t ask opinions on how to fire your employer...you asked if you should take off overweight. There’s a big difference.
 
I love it. New guy is getting goat roped for saying goat roped. I lurked long before I offered my first post.

OP, keep your resume sharp, everyone is hiring.
 
There was a "Flying: article in which two pilots were discussing the airlines policy to take off with less than max power and the older pilot asked the new pilot what he would tell the crash investigator about his decision. I think that is a good question to think about before making iffy decisions.
 
cgrab said:
There was a "Flying: article in which two pilots were discussing the airlines policy to take off with less than max power and the older pilot asked the new pilot what he would tell the crash investigator about his decision. I think that is a good question to think about before making iffy decisions.
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I would like to see that article. We do reduced thrust takeoffs all the time. The crash investigator will give the pilots no more than a passing glance if the airplane was operated within FAA approved guidelines.
 
I "think" it is some Gulfstream model that has to take off at least once a month at full power. The pilots always liked that flight. Any G# typed pilots here?
 
cgrab said:
There was a "Flying: article in which two pilots were discussing the airlines policy to take off with less than max power and the older pilot asked the new pilot what he would tell the crash investigator about his decision. I think that is a good question to think about before making iffy decisions.
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Greg Bockelman said:
I would like to see that article. We do reduced thrust takeoffs all the time. The crash investigator will give the pilots no more than a passing glance if the airplane was operated within FAA approved guidelines.
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https://flightsafety.org/asw-article/when-less-is-more/
 
Eric Stoltz said:
OP, keep your resume sharp, everyone is hiring.
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Yep - this is a definitely a great time to have to deal with idiot owners that expect pilots to bend the rules. Especially in the light to midsize segment of the market, where owners/operators haven't quite figured out that $100K isn't going to keep anyone around anymore.
 
updraft said:
I had already decided not to take the job, I just wanted your opinions on how to fire my employer.
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Not to pick nits, but 'I'm looking for opinions on how to tell the owner I won't take the gig without looking like a crybaby and without throwing the other pilot under the bus' is going get you entirely different responses than 'do I take off knowing I'm overweight or do I tell my owner that his plane cannot legally make this trip without stopping for fuel?'

Welcome to the forum, I hope you hang around. But maybe ask the question you actually want the answer to next time.
 
Me; “Okay, here is our flight plan. Looks like we will need to stop at XYZ airport for fuel.”

Owner; “We never have to stop for fuel when Joe Pilot flies the plane. Why can’t you?”

Me; “I don’t know what the weight was nor the weather conditions for his flights, so I can’t comment on that. As for today’s flight, we are carrying xxxx lbs in passengers and baggage. This means we can carry at most xxxx gallons of fuel in order to avoid exceeding the maximum take off weight legally allowed for the plane. Based upon the expected winds aloft, we would need at least xxx gallons of fuel to meet the minimum legal planned reserves at landing. Therefore, to stay legal and safe, we need to stop for fuel.”

Owner; “I don’t want to hear about all the technical stuff, I just need you to make it happen.”

Me; “I will not compromise safety or legality. If you want me to make this trip, we will stop for fuel. If that is not acceptable, then you will need to find another pilot. What would you like to do?”

Owner: Begins a tirade with a stream of profanities.

Me: Walks out the door without saying a word, and heads out for some tasty BBQ with coleslaw.
 
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There was a story a while back about a Lear that was hauling parts for a "just in time" Detroit manufacturer. They loaded 2000 KILOS instead of 2000 pounds, and the pilot thought the airplane a little sluggish.
 
Stingray Don said:
Me; “Okay, here is our flight plan. Looks like we will need to stop at XYZ airport for fuel.”

Owner; “We never have to stop for fuel when Joe Pilot flies the plane. Why can’t you?”

Me; “I don’t know what the weight was nor the weather conditions for his flights, so I can’t comment on that. As for today’s flight, we are carrying xxxx lbs in passengers and baggage. This means we can carry at most xxxx gallons of fuel in order to avoid exceeding the maximum take off weight legally allowed for the plane. Based upon the expected winds aloft, we would need at least xxx gallons of fuel to meet the minimum legal planned reserves at landing. Therefore, to stay legal and safe, we need to stop for fuel.”

Owner; “I don’t want to hear about all the technical stuff, I just need you to make it happen.”

Me; “I will not compromise safety or legality. If you want me to make this trip, we will stop for fuel. If that is not acceptable, then you will need to find another pilot. What would you like to do?”

Owner: Begins a tirade with a stream of profanities.

Me: Walks out the door without saying a word, and heads out for some tasty BBQ with coleslaw.
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This is when a voice recorder on your smart phone is worth its weight in unobtainium. If that boss gives you a bad reference in the future for a job at a proper aviation employer, play it.

Voice recorder, one the first things I download when I get a new phone.
 
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