Ravioli
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Unwanted Guest - Perma-ban Pending
It would be more relevant education than ADFs, and many other antiquities of the training regime.
Overhead Break
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It would be more relevant education than ADFs, and many other antiquities of the training regime.
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Velocity173
Well that’s a tongue twister. You’re not upwind on the overhead maneuver though. It’s not designed to parallel the runway, it’s designed to take you directly over the runway. It’s not a 360 circle to land either. It’s two separate 180s. Also, if at a towered field, they’re going to be using standard terms.
Now, I agree, there are those who just haven’t been taught the overhead. It is what it is. But, if they have no clue what the overhead is, trying to describe it over the radio isn’t going to make them visualize it and better. If they’ve gotten into the books and took a couple minutes to read over the maneuver, then the terms used should make sense.
smv
Pattern Altitude
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smv
I have not dug up an RV POH so I have to ask... Is there something in the RV POH that makes the RV have an "operational need to conduct the maneuver"? Cannot imagine an RV being unable to make a normal approach.
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Velocity173
Oh but they’re so slick and hard to slow down for Vfe.
My Glasair and my Velocity are just as slick and I have no problems slowing down to enter the 45. A lot more planning than say a Piper or Cessna but easily doable. They (we) do it because it’s fun. It’s that simple. “Operational need” is for airfields that work a heavy amount of tactical jet traffic. Anyone who has flown those types or worked those types in ATC realizes the importance of the maneuver. Working multiple flights into a field during IFR conditions is like night and day compared to VMC and the overhead being conducted. Even if they did the visual during VMC, it’s far more inefficient than doing the overhead.
Witmo
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Tim
Full disclosure, former military aviator. I have no problem with pilots doing overhead pattern, but then I know what one is and used to do them regularly on active duty. Single ship, I don't see the need to do one in the civilian world other than showing off. If I were in a formation, however, an overhead allows the formation to split up over the field and get their spacing to land single ship so a couple of RVs doing the overhead is sensible.
One other term that most civilians wouldn't understand is the "perch." The perch is the point at which the pilot begins his descending 180 degree turn to final. The overhead pattern should be a required teaching point for every instructor even if it's not used regularly at civilian airfields. I see many of the same pilots who insist that the 45 entry is the only entry to use also scream bloody murder when someone wants to do an overhead arrival or a regular straight-in.
One other term that most civilians wouldn't understand is the "perch." The perch is the point at which the pilot begins his descending 180 degree turn to final. The overhead pattern should be a required teaching point for every instructor even if it's not used regularly at civilian airfields. I see many of the same pilots who insist that the 45 entry is the only entry to use also scream bloody murder when someone wants to do an overhead arrival or a regular straight-in.
hindsight2020
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hindsight2020
I <3 these football bat threads about .mil cosplay. To paraphrase Gen Aladeen: it's like watching monkeys on roller skates - it means nothing to them, but it's so adorable for the rest of us...
Groundpounder
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Emerson Bigguns
Just because they used to fly cool planes doesn't mean they are allowed to pretend they still are.
455 Bravo Uniform
Final Approach
If doing an overhead is safer for the plane flying it AND for the other airplanes flitting to & fro, then good. If not, then revert to something safer. Pretty simple.
Just because you don't understand an AIM documented procedure doesn't mean people don't get to go have fun in their airplanes. Just like folks coming into a non-towered field on practice instrument approaches, good comms and SA are key to safety. You want everyone to fly like you do? Buy a simulator.
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Bellanca_Pilot
Pre-Flight
Damn, you crash your Microsoft Flight Sim today?
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luvflyin
Touchdown! Greaser!
Never heard of that before. We’re you Navy or Air Force? I’ve heard ‘pitch out’ from AF pilots before. Would you use “perch” in communication with the Tower?
I was in an out of many USAF bases in my career and never heard the term "perch" used over the radio. At USAF bases it was "request the overhead" and at USN/USMC "request the break". At most bases it was a 1000' AGL level break but at some (and oddly NAF Andrews was one) where you could get the 800' carrier break on request.
hindsight2020
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hindsight2020
It's a USAF thing. You won't hear it used in .civ fields. Certainly joint-use fields, maybe a P-field here and there. In dedicated USAF fields, especially AETC host wings, we use the term with tower all. the. time. It's a formal position in a USAF closed/overhead pattern, and an understood geographical point for USAF towers.
This schematic cover the differences for the .civ participants. I am not advocating that .civ should have to know this btw, I'm limiting the scope of my response to your question about perch terminology with ATC.
wsuffa
Touchdown! Greaser!
smv
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smv
...and we find ourselves back at the "operational need to conduct the maneuver" mentioned earlier. Arriving at an occupied pattern over an untowered airfield "in formation" is more of a PPP event than an operational need and certainly not sensible.
danhagan
En-Route
It's not the plane that's the problem.
You're too nice Fred.
1. I fly one, did one in an empty pattern, and the straight in like a Cirrus would've got me on the runway faster
2. I've never heard a Cessna-152 announce or ask for the overhead break
Are we ready for RV aileron rolls after departure yet?
Edit: I do recognize the multi-ship formations like the one over Arrowhead stadium can land more efficiently using it.
EdFred
Taxi to Parking
The thing I don't get about the overhead break is, if you're flying it under the guise to save time (because it certainly isn't about safety), why not just straight in?
Admit you (the general you) get a semi from pretending to be Maverick.
Don't **** on my shoes and tell me it's mud.
Admit you (the general you) get a semi from pretending to be Maverick.
Don't **** on my shoes and tell me it's mud.
Witmo
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Tim
I was USAF. You'd use the term "perch" as you would any position report to tell people where you are in a pattern. The tower might ask you to report the perch or, as one example, you might announce breaking out of the pattern to the West from the perch so everyone on freq knew where you were at and what you were doing. "Pitch out" would be that first 180 degree turn from initial to put you on inside downwind. "Inside downwind" is the close-in downwind you'd be on doing an overhead pattern while the other downwind you might be on farther away from the airfield would be a radar downwind several miles away.
I disagree because flying formation is a skill that many private pilots desire to master. Just because formation flight is not in your skill set or mission description doesn't preclude it from others who want to do something beyond stabilized approaches from a ten mile straight-in. Formation flying takes practice and if your airplane and the airplanes you formate with are hangared at a pilot controlled field, then it behooves people to be familiar with formations coming up initial and pitching out. I like vanilla icecream but I'm not about to demand all other flavors be banned.
smv
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smv
Wow... The amount of assumption and projection in that one paragraph is simply amazing. The ego icing on top, however is priceless.
Going to the overhead allows you to maintain max speed to the field vice descending and slowing down prior - Then you fly a short pattern.
I'll admit that I'm new to PoA and frankly only three years into GA but I can't imagine why people are such Karens about others having fun in their planes in ways that are clearly described in the AIM we all should know. I haven't gone to the overhead in GA because to do so in what I fly would look silly but why the heck shouldn't others? I often do power off short approaches though.
Guess this is me!
unsafervguy
En-Route
rather than bashing the RV guys, just go get one because we all know you want to be one of us...........................
...Cirrii get the 10 mile straight in ...
I thought they get the 2 mile straight down...
EdFred
Taxi to Parking
Going to the overhead allows you to maintain max speed to the field vice descending and slowing down prior - Then you fly a short pattern.
I'll admit that I'm new to PoA and frankly only three years into GA but I can't imagine why people are such Karens about others having fun in their planes in ways that are clearly described in the AIM we all should know. I haven't gone to the overhead in GA because to do so in what I fly would look silly but why the heck shouldn't others? I often do power off short approaches though.
And how does that help you land quicker? It doesn't.
I can go from cruise to landing speed in most any single GA plane in the last half mile before the numbers. (Had a discussion about this a while back after someone saying it was "impossible") You aren't saving any time with the overhead break. If you want to do it because you get a chubby, have at it. But don't preach about it being anything else than looking "cool." Although the "coolness" doesn't extend beyond the cockpit.
Looks like Hitler Reacts To Vy needs a sequel...
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EdFred
Taxi to Parking
Negative Ghost Rider. The only one that fits my mission is the 10, and I can buy an engine overhaul and the cost of the fuel to get to the overhaul for the price difference between a 10 and what I ride in now.
Enjoy.
I don't think I can go from 155Kts to 65Kts in 1/2 a mile without being already way low back on the power and likely overspeeding the gear or flaps in the 182RG . But I'm sure you're a superior airman than me. Perhaps you should try something new? Maybe the overhead pattern?
Witmo
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Tim
I have no idea what assumption or projection you're referring to. I tried to explain the operational necessity to practice formation if you're intent on doing formation work and flying up initial in echelon and pitching out is part of formation flying. I don't do any formation flying anymore but I don't presume to deny others from doing formation as long as they get proper instruction and practice to remain proficient. If that seems to be egotistical to you, sobeit.
Notatestpilot
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Notatestpilot
Thank you all. I got the answers I was hoping to get.
I've been flying my RV for years and consider this maneuver to be a safe way to quickly bring the plane into landing...my downwind to base to final are rounded corners anyways.
I will continue to do the over head break, but only when it's less or no traffic.
I've been flying my RV for years and consider this maneuver to be a safe way to quickly bring the plane into landing...my downwind to base to final are rounded corners anyways.
I will continue to do the over head break, but only when it's less or no traffic.
EdFred
Taxi to Parking
Enjoy.
I went from cruise power, but it was a nose up slip to bleed the speed, drop the gear, get the flaps...but as it was, I then needed to add power to get to the numbers. I bet if you gave it a shot, you'd be surprised how quickly it slows down.
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Velocity173
Just because the overhead was designed for operational need, doesn’t mean that we in GA shouldn’t do it. Even calling it a need is a bit of a stretch. Operational advantage for some military bases but not a need. A major PITA for an approach controller without it but not a need.
Does typical GA, even the outrageously fast RV need to do it? No, but who cares? I don’t need to fly an IAP during VMC but I still do it. Just like the overhead, formation flying was born out of military origins but that doesn’t mean GA shouldn’t do it with the right training. Anything that improves ones skill set and branches out of cookie cutter style flying is healthy.
If there was some sort of alarming documentation of midairs that have occurred due to the overhead then I could understand the push back. If anything it’s proven to be a safe, sensible way of entering a pattern...if done correctly.
Does typical GA, even the outrageously fast RV need to do it? No, but who cares? I don’t need to fly an IAP during VMC but I still do it. Just like the overhead, formation flying was born out of military origins but that doesn’t mean GA shouldn’t do it with the right training. Anything that improves ones skill set and branches out of cookie cutter style flying is healthy.
If there was some sort of alarming documentation of midairs that have occurred due to the overhead then I could understand the push back. If anything it’s proven to be a safe, sensible way of entering a pattern...if done correctly.
danhagan
En-Route
I thought they get the 2 mile straight down...
They do, but it's a one time event
Not much practice
Heh heh...Karens.
Juliet Hotel
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Juliet Hotel
The thread contains answers that run the full spectrum from 'yeah I do it and everyone else should' to 'anyone who does it is a wannabe' to 'its stupid and pointless and decreases safety.'
So if those were the answers you were hoping to get, I have to wonder what were the answers you were not hoping to get?
Brad Z
Final Approach
Y'all flying your fast RVs have to do all sorts of aerobatic maneuvers to go from fast to slow....
...but when I have to poop real bad in my 182 I can just basically firewall it straight in to short final, cut the throttle, and still make the first turn off.
...but when I have to poop real bad in my 182 I can just basically firewall it straight in to short final, cut the throttle, and still make the first turn off.
Wait, I'm confused. Some pilot named Karen initially found something perched in the overhead of her RV?
Aim, shoot is the answer, right? But that caused some guy in spot 182 working on his throttle to poop on his firewall.
Sounds fun to me, I'm in!
Aim, shoot is the answer, right? But that caused some guy in spot 182 working on his throttle to poop on his firewall.
Sounds fun to me, I'm in!
Groundpounder
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Emerson Bigguns
I understand it, but it is not a common procedure in the civilian world, and serves no purpose except for people to fulfill their Walter Mitty fighter pilot fantasies or to still hold on to those distant memories of when someone used to be a fighter pilot. If you want to do it in an empty pattern where you aren't going to cause a ruckus, have at it. But to come bombing into a pattern full of students and expect everyone to know some obscure non-civilian pattern entry and get out of your way so you can be Mr Cool Guy one more time is selfish and dangerous.
No. Did you?
Tarheelpilot
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Tarheelpilot
Im not taking sides in this debate but it’s not an obscure military procedure. It is part of the aim and should have been at least talked about during primary training. It’s also not unreasonable to expect schools at fields where this is a more common occurrence to do a little more than just talk about overhead breaks.
When it comes down to it your effort to assign some particular mindset to other pilots and then judge them is very human but very flawed.
jbDC9
Pre-takeoff checklist
Wrong. It does actually serve a purpose in the civilian world... I do it all the time whether I'm flying my RV, a T-28, T-6, Beech 18, whatever... it's useful and it works. But, I personally don't use the military lingo on the radio because many (most?) others in the pattern don't understand it. And no, I'm not an ex-military fighter pilot.
Your opinion. But, selfish and dangerous?? Nope.