Our Airports are becoming POW camps

Salty said:
On the other side of the spectrum, at my airport, we occasionally have people driving down the runway in their mini van, due to their inability to read plain signs in large lettering.
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It's pretty rare but sometimes we get auto traffic and it's hunters looking for their dogs. We have a lot of deer around & on the field but hunters (good old boys) with guns (and likely alcohol) in their vehicles are striclty forbidden on the runway. :fingerwag:
 
CaptainRobertRiter said:
Hey Russ, Let me tell you about what is going on here. I pilot was driving his classic car around the airport, which was kept in his hanger along with his plane. He had his two very young grandchildren with him sitting in the front seat as they drove at 10 mph looking at the planes. Along comes the city employee with the yellow lights and horn blaring. The city employee starts yelling that he is not allowed to drive around, and then the airport manager comes up in another car with yellow lights and horns going. After ten minutes of yelling the pilot puts his car back in the hanger and leaves the airport because his grandchildren are terrified and crying. This pilot has told me both of his grandchildren are too afraid to come to the airport anymore, and want nothing to do with it. Prior to this it was their favorite place to go! So yes, I think the POW analogy is correct.
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Sorry to hear about that, I’ve definitely noticed the rude employees and they frankly need to be called out on being rude. They have a responsibility to do a job in a respectful manner and if not, it is up to you to call him/her out on it, speak with his/her manager, etc until you get your point across. At the end of the day, fair is fair, I think we are taught to be passive sheep sometimes and that fuels these rude shouting employees everywhere. Frankly, we just need a reminder to be respectful and/or change in staff.

I personally wouldn’t call it a POW camp, that is a sensitive topic for people who actually went through that. You can call out the airport and their rude customer service skills however.
 
Daleandee said:
It's pretty rare but sometimes we get auto traffic and it's hunters looking for their dogs. We have a lot of deer around & on the field but hunters (good old boys) with guns (and likely alcohol) in their vehicles are striclty forbidden on the runway. :fingerwag:
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No bigoted stereotype there…. Nope
 
There are definitely are examples of airports, becoming much less community friendly. Our airport in Ogden UT, used to have three restaurants on site, a playground for kids. Used to see people hanging out around the hangers, grilling, talking planes, kids riding bikes around the non-movement area, this was post 9/11. Then the airport locked down the parking area in front of the restaurants, so no more fly ins, shut down the kids playground, started encouraging tenants to report anybody that didn’t look like they belong on the airport. Also authorizing badge holders to challenge anybody by insisting they produce a badge on the spot. We all got airport badges, and not only do we have to badge in, but if you’re inside the airport, you can’t get out without a badge. You have to actually badge out. Cameras at the gates, did away with letting someone behind you in (piggybacking) so the gate has to close after every car, unless you personally escort them to your own hanger. if you have somebody working on your hanger, whether it’s a hanger door, heater, paint, what have you, unless they have an airport badge you have to stay out there with them and watch them work. Don’t see anybody just hanging out anymore, the airport is secured, but not nearly as fun as it used to be. As I have traveled the country, it really puzzles me how some airports are vibrant and friendly, and some airports are shut down and unfriendly. It’s not the FAA mandating, it’s just the local government of each airport that set the tone.
 
This really can go for anything. Someone getting a little bit of authority and suddenly it goes to their head. I dont mind fences. Or a key card/code to enter the property. Makes me feel safer about having my plane there. Or it would if I had any of that.
 
@CaptainRobertRiter I don't think you're getting a lot of pushback on your main complaint at your airport. What you're getting pushback on is your marketing message: Your situation is more isolated than your OP indicates--this is not happening "across the country", it's happening in a few isolated spots. More significantly, comparing a couple of crying kids who were spooked by a siren to the torments endured by servicemen held in enemy POW camps is so ridiculous that it's almost more cringeworthy than insulting.

This forum is where you should expect to find the most supportive audience. If you're not finding that--and you aren't--you should ask yourself why.

Read the room: Your hyperbole is not helping your cause--it is alienating potential supporters.
 
There is no fence around the front of our airport but I kind of wish there was?
We/I have had no security issues at our small airport to make a fence necessary IMO.
There is a fence along the rear portion which is nice as it keeps my dog out of the neighbors yards.
We have a awesome small town airport where everyone is welcome.
I have only been around it since 2018 but it has seemed to be more busy now than then. All the hangars are rented out now as there was at 2 available when I first come to the airport.
Our airport has had some nice upgrades done since also but I don't think a fence is on the horizon?
 
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We are in a much better situation in GA if the community is welcome at the airport. Much easier to preserve an airport when the community thinks of the airport as “their” airport. When an airport becomes “those” peoples airport, with a bunch of richguys, behind that fence, flying their fancy, dangerous, lead spewing machines, the tone changes and the long term success of the airport is in jeopardy. You can’t change old peoples minds. But you sure can change the hearts of children.
 
Did some asking around here - that airport is not closing... KTOA is the home to Robinson Helicopter and the Western Musume of Flight. It used to have the only F-20 Tigershark on display, which I think now is at the Science Museum in downtown LA..




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There are something like 20,000 airports in the U.S. some of the comments here sound a lot like people in the foothills discussing a tsunami. “It hasn’t reached me yet…”
 
Iflydogs said:
There are something like 20,000 airports in the U.S. some of the comments here sound a lot like people in the foothills discussing a tsunami. “It hasn’t reached me yet…”
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Has the OP shown any evidence of people being detained and treated as POWs?
 
A complication in all of the wailing about security measures (fencing, cameras, etc.) at airports is that failing to address these issues may limit or prevent future AIP funding. I am a member of an airport commission at a reasonably heavily trafficked rural airport (the only public use airport in our county). We were asked to address security by installing fending and cameras in order to be eligible for future AIP projects. Having said that we are still open to the public, and have held public events (pancake breakfasts and airplane/balloon rides, etc.) for local engagement and awareness. One thing I am thankful about for having a security fence: no nighttime joyrides of construction equipment through the airport grounds, and fewer visitors who think the airport runway is a good place to teach their children how to drive, or see how fast their sports cars will go. Oh, and by the way...our airport was a profit-maker for the local taxpayer each of the last to years, and most years breaks even or better. That's a good way to build community support.
 
Tarheelpilot said:
It didn’t hurt.

I am, however, very surprised you would post something so ignorant and then defend it when rightfully challenged.
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Not seeing the point you are trying to make ...
 
Salty said:
Has the OP shown any evidence of people being detained and treated as POWs?
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It is hyperbole. I have a Belgian friend, while we met over dinner in Las Vegas he related an experience he had at the airport taxi stand. It had a Disney-style roped waiting line with nobody in it, when he bypassed all that nonsense he was yelled at by the taxi stand guy to follow the line. His point was, give a twidget a little power and it goes to his head. I think the OP is expressing (rightful) frustration with that attitude.
 
Daleandee said:
Not seeing the point you are trying to make ...
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Ok. Well. Perhaps you should go back and read the post you made about hunters. It was very derogatory and exhibited a mindset towards other people I was surprised to see you post.

If you don’t see a problem with it that’s fine. You be you. At the end of the day my opinion of you is none of your business and doesn’t really matter.
 
Tarheelpilot said:
Ok. Well. Perhaps you should go back and read the post you made about hunters. It was very derogatory and exhibited a mindset towards other people I was surprised to see you post.

If you don’t see a problem with it that’s fine. You be you. At the end of the day my opinion of you is none of your business and doesn’t really matter.
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I wasn't referring to true hunters (I do some of that myself) but rather to a few local guys that live near the airport and have had to be asked repeatedly not to drive down the runway in their hunting trucks while going from field to field or searching for their deer dogs. I've talked to them, smelled the alcohol, and some will even ask you if you want a brew. I called them "good old boys" to differentiate them from real hunters. For a definition of "good old boys" please listen to the following video (if you can stomach some country music):


I see your misunderstanding and I do apologize if I have offended any real hunters! That was not my intention ...
 
@CaptainRobertRiter I'll echo what others have said about refining your message and suggest reading the first third of "Making Friends and Influencing People". You may have better luck trying to educate your city officials and have a plan of how they can achieve the improvements you desire to infrastructure and policy as well as how it will benefit the public and them. Writing scathing letters and designing patches comparing your airport to a POW camp is likely going to be counterproductive and have a negative result for your campaign...
 
Sound like a prison camp at KTOA?
Rolling Hills Aviation - helicopter parts and PSI test center.
South Bay Aviation - Cessna Pilot Center, Aviation fuel, Flight training, Aircraft rental, Pilot supplies, Flying club
Great American Aviation - Aviation fuel, Hangar leasing / sales

279 aircraft based on the airport including 247 single engine and 3 gliders. 326 operations a day.
 
Getting one's knickers in a twist over a throwaway comment mentioning that hunters often enjoy a few beers is hilariously "snowflake" behaviour given the kind of genuinely bigoted stuff that goes completely unremarked on most pilot social media.
 
279 aircraft based on the airport.

And some old Geezer driving around on the taxiways and tiedown areas with an ancient car, showing his grandkids the airplanes.

Note this is posted by a self identified Geezer.

He should be walking among the planes, or driving to the parking lot for car rides. I just sold my Historic car because it required more work to keep it running safely than I was willing to do. I have friends with prewar cars with beautiful bodies and paint, but sad bushings and suspension parts. I do not care if his was in fact perfect, I do not know, and he is not going to allow the airport gas guy inspect it on a lift to verify the condition.

That car has no business driving around on taxiways.

As far as POW's, I have had friends who survived those, and there is no comparison to the trivial inconveniences noted by the OP.
I have been inside an old school major city jail, with a piece of plastic that allowed me to leave when I wished, and there is no vague similarity to the conditions there.

The OP needs an overnight visit to a real prison, without a piece of plastic to get out at will, to adjust his view of life, and freedom.

This old Geezer worked for the contractor which calibrated the controls for the electric chair. My visit meant that some prisoner was scheduled to die that week. That is the sort of worry that real prisoners have.
 
CaptainRobertRiter said:
Hey Russ, Let me tell you about what is going on here. I pilot was driving his classic car around the airport, which was kept in his hanger along with his plane. He had his two very young grandchildren with him sitting in the front seat as they drove at 10 mph looking at the planes. Along comes the city employee with the yellow lights and horn blaring. The city employee starts yelling that he is not allowed to drive around, and then the airport manager comes up in another car with yellow lights and horns going. After ten minutes of yelling the pilot puts his car back in the hanger and leaves the airport because his grandchildren are terrified and crying. This pilot has told me both of his grandchildren are too afraid to come to the airport anymore, and want nothing to do with it. Prior to this it was their favorite place to go! So yes, I think the POW analogy is correct.
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There are multiple problems here.

No, your POW analogy is hyperbolic and whiney.
Your anecdote to support your analogy is also overly dramatic. Airports *aren’t* a place where one should joyride in an automobile. When someone tells a driver not to do that, the appropriate response is to discuss it after parking, calmly, not to spend ten minutes yelling about it in front of one’s grandchildren
 
@CaptainRobertRiter
You mention some important issues worthy of discussion.
I often feel we’ve lost our collective minds, and important foundational principles, in our response to the 9/11 attacks- and airport security is part of that insanity.

My bottom line is, let the local airports decide “how to do” security.
And we should all be mindful as to how to make them welcoming places to promote aviation.
 
geezer said:
He should be walking among the planes
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While accompanied by his paid handling agent, directly to the FBO and with all parties wearing a mandatory reflective vest. So that he could then collect his car from paid parking before the meter payment expires and he is fined. Be careful what you wish for, because some already have it.

I doubt BTW that anybody was driving a car “on the taxiways”, it was more likely on the ramp outside of the movement area. A great thing to be able to do.
 
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SFDukie said:
@CaptainRobertRiter
You mention some important issues worthy of discussion.
I often feel we’ve lost our collective minds, and important foundational principles, in our response to the 9/11 attacks- and airport security is part of that insanity.

My bottom line is, let the local airports decide “how to do” security.
And we should all be mindful as to how to make them welcoming places to promote aviation.
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Dear SFDukie,
Thank you for your post! Right now I do not see any discussion. More importantly any organization towards protecting aviation, protecting the rights of pilots, and the rights of mechanics. There is a well organized effort to shut down aviation in this country. I will do my best to bring it up to the forefront despite the nasty comments and hate. It does not pay at all, and no one else is doing it. Much of it goes unseen unless you own a FBO or you are an aviation professional making your living in this tough industry.
 
Tusayan said:
While accompanied by his paid handling agent, directly to the FBO and with all parties wearing a mandatory reflective vest. So that he could then collect his car from paid parking before the meter payment expires and he is fined. Be careful what you wish for, because some already have it.

I doubt BTW that anybody was driving a car “on the taxiways”, it was more likely on the ramp outside of the movement area. A great thing to be able to do.
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Hey you never know. maybe we need fences around my airport. They drive on the runway here.

 
Tusayan said:
While accompanied by his paid handling agent, directly to the FBO and with all parties wearing a mandatory reflective vest. So that he could then collect his car from paid parking before the meter payment expires and he is fined. Be careful what you wish for, because some already have it.

I doubt BTW that anybody was driving a car “on the taxiways”, it was more likely on the ramp outside of the movement area. A great thing to be able to do.
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Yes sir, driving on the ramp. No one drives on the taxi ways or runways that I have ever seen.
 
SixPapaCharlie said:
Hey you never know. maybe we need fences around my airport. They drive on the runway here.

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Hey guys,
I am not saying removing the fencing around airports. They safeguard us from animals entering the runways. Having a locked gate for a car entrance? Sure, people that are not part of the aviation community should not be driving cars on the airport. These things make sense. I was bringing up how the local communities are being discouraged and even ran off from visiting our airports. About crazy security procedures along with police or security guards to hinder access. Are there going to be exceptions? Of course, but do we give up our freedoms so easily? The airport should be part of a community. Just like a park or library. Thanks for the video!
 
Katamarino said:
Getting one's knickers in a twist over a throwaway comment mentioning that hunters often enjoy a few beers is hilariously "snowflake" behaviour given the kind of genuinely bigoted stuff that goes completely unremarked on most pilot social media.
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There are many people on this website that I would expect such a comment from and take only passing notice.

I was more surprised at the source but that has been sorted out in an earlier post up thread as a misunderstanding.

basically I have double standards. One set of rules for known miscreants and another for the ones I respect.

Probably inappropriate on my part but just being honest with you. Mainly because you’re on the respected list and I don’t want to be identified as a winter flake by the ones I respect.



Cheers
 
CaptainRobertRiter said:
There is a well organized effort to shut down aviation in this country.
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No, there isn't. There may be organized efforts to attack individual airports, but it's ridiculous to say anyone, even poorly-organized, is "trying to shut down aviation in this country". No one is going to take you seriously when you say silly things like that.
 
I was driving past the Crystal River airport yesterday and was thinking..."I think there used to be a restaurant that was walkable here"...got a little closer, and there was a Dairy Queen...with a 6ft chain link & barbed wire barrier in the way. I did spot a gate, but have no idea if that is passable....I'm guessing not.
 
Brad W said:
I was driving past the Crystal River airport yesterday and was thinking..."I think there used to be a restaurant that was walkable here"...got a little closer, and there was a Dairy Queen...with a 6ft chain link & barbed wire barrier in the way. I did spot a gate, but have no idea if that is passable....I'm guessing not.
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There's a good greek restaurant with good breakfast menu in walking distance.
 
Jim_R said:
No, there isn't. There may be organized efforts to attack individual airports, but it's ridiculous to say anyone, even poorly-organized, is "trying to shut down aviation in this country". No one is going to take you seriously when you say silly things like that.
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As crazy as the OP came off, there is an effort by the environmental lobby to restrict or eliminate aviation. Interestingly they seem to think rail is a magic bullet for climate change, as if building thousands of miles of railroad does not create any impact on the environment.
 
midwestpa24 said:
Interestingly they seem to think rail is a magic bullet for climate change, as if building thousands of miles of railroad does not create any impact on the environment.
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Uhh relatively speaking... no. Not in comparison to the sheer quantity of roads that would be needed to replace the rail.

That's just like all the anti EV people that throw a picture of a lithium mine and say 'see how bad this is'? But that's just what a mine looks like. Everything needs to be mined like the iron ore that is in normal vehicles. Yeah mines look bad, but they exist for everything.
 
Brad W said:
I was driving past the Crystal River airport yesterday and was thinking..."I think there used to be a restaurant that was walkable here"...got a little closer, and there was a Dairy Queen...with a 6ft chain link & barbed wire barrier in the way. I did spot a gate, but have no idea if that is passable....I'm guessing not.
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Well, that's gotta be bad for business!
 
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