OSH - T-6 goes into Lake Winnebago Saturday 7/29 morning

[skyking3286]

OSHKOSH - A plane crashed into Lake Winnebago and rescue units have been sent to the scene Saturday morning.

Neenah-Menasha Fire Rescue shift commander Troy Jahns said the plane crashed into the lake between Oshkosh and Neenah. The department has sent a rescue boat with a dive team to the area of the crash, he said.

The Winnebago County Sheriff's Office in a Facebook post said, "Please avoid the Asylum Bay Boat Launch area. This area will be closed today for an emergency vehicle response."

Neither the Winnebago County Sheriff's Office nor the Calumet County Sheriff's Office immediately had information to release when asked about the incident.

According to a tweet from the U.S. Coast Guard Great Lakes, the plane is a T-6 Texan aircraft. Coast Guard auxiliary are on the scene, the tweet said, and more Coast Guard personnel is headed to the scene.

The boat launch is about 2 to 4 miles north of the runways, north of Menominee.

SAD UPDATE:
The rescue effort later changed to recovery. The Winnebago County Sheriff's Office said it got multiple calls at around 9:06 a.m. about a plane crashing into the lake.
"Our thoughts remain with the family and friends of the occupants of the plane," the Winnebago County Sheriff's Office said.

The plane is a T-6 Texan aircraft, according to a tweet from the U.S. Coast Guard Great Lakes. It was reportedly maneuvering before rapidly descending from about 3,000 feet altitude, another Coast Guard tweet said,
adding that the lake is about 20 feet deep, with poor visibility, at the crash site.

Two hours later, a mid-air crash south east corner of ultralight demo pattern, airport is shut down until after the airshow.

 

[RyanShort1]

it reeks to find out you knew a person. Prayers for the families.

 

[texasclouds]

RIP

 

[Turbo-Arrow-Driver]

 

[TCABM]

Pilot was local to KBAZ, where she ran a flight school for quite a few years that was shuttered last month.

A CFII I flew with today trained with her three or four years ago.

 

[RyanShort1]

Pilot was local to KBAZ, where she ran a flight school for quite a few years that was shuttered last month.

A CFII I flew with today trained with her three or four years ago.

I'm having a hard time believing Dan G's opinion on her flight time experience was accurate this evening... but I guess we'll see.

 

[hindsight2020]

I'm having a hard time believing Dan G's opinion on her flight time experience was accurate this evening... but I guess we'll see.

If youre talking about the 5 minute portion of the 40 minute video he posted, his assessment is not a lie.
And that's as far as ill go publicly given the recency.

 

[Fearless Tower]

I'm having a hard time believing Dan G's opinion on her flight time experience was accurate this evening... but I guess we'll see.

Dan posts stuff for shock value/stir up a reaction. Not because they are actual facts.

Never met her, but all I can say is that my Facebook feed in the last 24 hours is full of some really tore up people…

 

[Fearless Tower]

If youre talking about the 5 minute portion of the 40 minute video he posted, his assessment is not a lie.
And that's as far as ill go publicly given the recency.

Problem with DG is that he weaves occasional actual facts with complete fabrications to the point where you just can't trust/rely on anything he says.

I'm waiting to hear Scott Perdue's take on this one...

 

[Kenny Phillips]

Problem with DG is that he weaves occasional actual facts with complete fabrications to the point where you just can't trust/rely on anything he says.

I'm waiting to hear Scott Perdue's take on this one...

He states everything is his opinion. He corrects if he gets it wrong. He's like us hanging around the FBO, speculating. Because we do. I remember two occasions of stuff being said that would, as the saying goes, shock the devil. One was when a famous musician crashed, the other was when a president's son crashed.

 

[TCABM]

I'm having a hard time believing Dan G's opinion on her flight time experience was accurate this evening... but I guess we'll see.

Don’t know, don’t watch him or much on YT, especially not much aviation content there honestly.

 

[Fearless Tower]

He states everything is his opinion. He corrects if he gets it wrong.

Unfortunately that’s just not true.

When DG is confronted with putting out false information, he does not correct it - He doubles down.

 

[Warlock]

Some of you hate the source but some interesting details about who was involved in both incidents.
Female World War II-era airplane pilot, 30, killed in Wisconsin crash


https://mol.im/a/12355145

 

[RyanShort1]

If youre talking about the 5 minute portion of the 40 minute video he posted, his assessment is not a lie.
And that's as far as ill go publicly given the recency.

I guess if you mean his assessment that people should have more hours before jumping into T-6s, that's not crazy talk at all, although a lot of it probably depends on who is doing the instruction and like 'em or not, the CAF probably has as much sense about time requirements for the T-6 as anyone. This was their minimums back in 2018.

That said, I would have thought that she would have had more flight time than Dan said and that she probably spent a decent unlogged time flying with others, like her father, too. That's what my comment was about. I'm certainly not in a position to say for sure and if her time was that low, that's definitely not great, but I doubt it.

Her family are neat folks and I met them at a New Braunfels airshow way back when she was a teenager. She's probably been around warbirds to some degree for half of her life at least. We were there opening night when they opened their restaurant. This has got to be awfully hard.

 

[Datadriver]

I'm having a hard time believing Dan G's opinion on her flight time experience was accurate this evening...

Dan seems pretty tough on everyone that is involved in a fatal. Were there videos of her NOT bouncing landings at OSH? Maybe, but Dan is trying to make better pilots, so he is more likely to criticize something you did wrong than pat you on the back for your good qualities (or good landings).

 

[Fearless Tower]

Maybe, but Dan is trying to make better pilots, so he is more likely to criticize something you did wrong than pat you on the back for your good qualities (or good landings).

No he’s not.

He’s a textbook narcissist. He pretends to be trying to improve things, but he’s really just enjoying stirring people up and getting a reaction.

 

[Lindberg]

Dan seems pretty tough on everyone that is involved in a fatal. Were there videos of her NOT bouncing landings at OSH? Maybe, but Dan is trying to make better pilots, so he is more likely to criticize something you did wrong than pat you on the back for your good qualities (or good landings).

Has he updated his video on the cornfield crash to take responsibility for his poor judgment that caused it?

 

[TCABM]

Has he updated his video on the cornfield crash to take responsibility for his poor judgment that caused it?

What are you talking about? Dan wouldn’t even discuss it with NTSB; why would he discuss it as head of DTSB? That would be admitting a fault and DG never seems to be at fault for anything.

 

[DFH65]

Dan seems pretty tough on everyone that is involved in a fatal. Were there videos of her NOT bouncing landings at OSH? Maybe, but Dan is trying to make better pilots, so he is more likely to criticize something you did wrong than pat you on the back for your good qualities (or good landings).

I think Dan likes to hear himself talk. Let me qualify by saying I have not been to OSH (YET) having said that I have watched hours of landings on Youtube at OSH and judging a persons skill or unwillingness to go around at OSH is probably not indicative of their overall skill as a pilot. These are not all stabilized approaches. You don't know what the controller was saying to the pilot or how many times they adjusted the pattern or changed the dot to land on during her approach. OSH is one place that accepting a little bounce on the landing vs. launching back into the beehive of aircraft may be the safe decision.

Dan has as much as said he wants everyone to have a reexamination of their pilot skills every year. To listen to him you would think things are getting worse when the reality is they are getting safer all the time.

Sorry this girl and her passenger lost their lives my heart breaks for their families. Not sure how much time she had in the Texan bet it was probably more than some of the pilots we sent into war in WWII.

 

[Mooney Fan]

Dan's message is full of mixed signals. He tried to say it without saying it.

 

[tsts4]

I think Dan likes to hear himself talk. Let me qualify by saying I have not been to OSH (YET) having said that I have watched hours of landings on Youtube at OSH and judging a persons skill or unwillingness to go around at OSH is probably not indicative of their overall skill as a pilot. These are not all stabilized approaches. You don't know what the controller was saying to the pilot or how many times they adjusted the pattern or changed the dot to land on during her approach. OSH is one place that accepting a little bounce on the landing vs. launching back into the beehive of aircraft may be the safe decision.

Dan has as much as said he wants everyone to have a reexamination of their pilot skills every year. To listen to him you would think things are getting worse when the reality is they are getting safer all the time.

Sorry this girl and her passenger lost their lives my heart breaks for their families. Not sure how much time she had in the Texan bet it was probably more than some of the pilots we sent into war in WWII.

Not going to comment on the veracity of DG's comments or the pilot in question's skills but I have flown into OSH 8 years in a row now. 4 years ago I was fast and bounced and began a PIO event that led eventually to a go-around (should have done it after the first bounce but it surprised me and I thought I could salvage it--almost a really bad decision). Anyway the controllers that come in for the show are amazing and are prepared for go arounds and quickly sequence you back into the downwind. Guys succumb to get-there-land-on-the-dot-itis and forget one of the most important tools in their kit bag especially on non-stabilized approaches is the go-around. IMO it's way safer to climb and try again (and ATC would prefer that) than trying to plant it and get it under control on a botched approach especially when there may be guys in front of and behind you on the runway.

 

[Turbo-Arrow-Driver]

Dan seems pretty tough on everyone that is involved in a fatal. Were there videos of her NOT bouncing landings at OSH? Maybe, but Dan is trying to make better pilots, so he is more likely to criticize something you did wrong than pat you on the back for your good qualities (or good landings).

Maybe there should be a separate category on POA for DG threads Okay, just kidding. Seriously though, he jumps to conclusions all the time.

For example here, he doesn't even consider the possibility that the pax had some involvement in the accident -- dual controls, right? That's not unheard of either. And no, I'm not speculating that this may be the cause -- just saying it's an example of DG jumping to another conclusion.

 

[midwestpa24]

Maybe there should be a separate category on POA for DG threads Okay, just kidding. Seriously though, he jumps to conclusions all the time.

For example here, he doesn't even consider the possibility that the pax had some involvement in the accident -- dual controls, right? That's not unheard of either. And no, I'm not speculating that this may be the cause -- just saying it's an example of DG jumping to another conclusion.

At this point in this accident, from the publicly available information, there just isn't any clear cause and everything is speculation. Could have been a bird strike that disabled the aircraft or pilot, any type of mechanical/structural failure, demonstrated maneuver that went wrong, medical incapacitation, no one knows. Hopefully the NTSB is able to shed some light in their investigation beyond "loss of control for unknown reasons."

 

[Turbo-Arrow-Driver]

At this point in this accident, from the publicly available information, there just isn't any clear cause and everything is speculation. Could have been a bird strike that disabled the aircraft or pilot, any type of mechanical/structural failure, demonstrated maneuver that went wrong, medical incapacitation, no one knows. Hopefully the NTSB is able to shed some light in their investigation beyond "loss of control for unknown reasons."

Bingo!

 

[RyanShort1]

Maybe there should be a separate category on POA for DG threads Okay, just kidding. Seriously though, he jumps to conclusions all the time.

For example here, he doesn't even consider the possibility that the pax had some involvement in the accident -- dual controls, right? That's not unheard of either. And no, I'm not speculating that this may be the cause -- just saying it's an example of DG jumping to another conclusion.

Well, I was just able to put two and two together and the pax was also a friend from the CAF Centex wing. Centex posted this earlier today:

View this content on Instagram

View this content on Instagram

Not a stranger to warbirds.

 

[danhagan]

I watched maybe 30 seconds of one of those 'Dan" videos a couple of years back and haven't bothered to watch any since. Am guessing most of his views are non-pilot youtube surfers ...

I never had the privilege of meeting Devyn Reiley, but am guessing it is probably my loss in that respect. Prayers for her, Zach Moreno the passenger, as well as their family and friends ... god speed.

 

[Flying Keys]

I watched maybe 30 seconds of one of those 'Dan" videos a couple of years back and haven't bothered to watch any since. Am guessing most of his views are non-pilot youtube surfers ...

I never had the privilege of meeting Devyn Reiley, but am guessing it is probably my loss in that respect. Prayers for her, Zach Moreno the passenger, as well as their family and friends ... god speed.

She was the eldest daughter of former NFL lineman Bruce Collie. The passenger’s last name also contained the Collie name, so likely a family member as well, maybe a cousin or something.

 

[hindsight2020]

I'm glad to see the chapter take the opportunity and recognize the loss of the passenger. Only 20yo and local to this area, tough situation for the extended Collie family indeed.

In light of CAFs public post, I find it relevant to comment this T-6 was not CAF owned or operated, and they passively underscore it in the condolence note. That said, the private party T-6 did complete its most recent annual/condition at the hands of said CAF chapter before heading to OSH, which is natural as they are the nearest provider in the area that dabbles in this type of niche aircraft (the bulk of the Reiley fleet hails from the Valley, Harlingen in particular).

The HYI chapter had/lent involvement in the restoration of this imported (Spanish AT-6) aircraft, which came into the collection of the Reileys relatively recently. Certainly a project given the condition at importation as I observed it in the (former) flight school hangar a year or so ago. Given the hull loss, everything has naturally gone steel trap pending the expected NTSB interviews. At any rate, certainly prudent response/behavior at this recent juncture from where I see it.

 

[Turbo-Arrow-Driver]

I'm going to have to start watching Juan Browne with my more critical eye (which one is that, anyway?). He is also indirectly blaming the pilot now before we know much. While he doesn't directly say it, the whole video is about T'-6's and pilots and spin recovery. Not a word about any other possible cause.

 

[FORANE]

OSHKOSH - A plane crashed into Lake Winnebago the plane is a T-6 Texan aircraft. It was reportedly maneuvering before rapidly descending from about 3,000 feet altitude,

Hard to know what is meant by maneuvering, but a rapid descent sure sounds like a stall spin.

A long time friend of mine lost her husband and future son in law 2 days prior to his upcoming wedding in a T-6 stall spin in 2010. https://aviation-safety.net/wikibase/75397

 

[hindsight2020]

I had to go find that blanco video since I don't follow these YT critters regularly, which is to say the algorithm isn't recommending it to me....it also made me realize I need to lay off my graduate level... research... of mediocre European female long jump. *checks siiiiiiiix*

At any rate, personally I found his narrative reasonable and relatively polite (and I do not care one bit for tone policing and hiding behind decorum, mind you). I found the discussion about spin prevention and T-6 specific ops quite informative to those who don't have access or background in said category of big piston trainers. I got a chuckle about how military manuals still mimic that WWII style in this day and age. Some things never change.

I also share his sentiments on the mentorship responsibilities of the experienced cadre towards the inexperienced, in order to get them to hopefully become experienced and replace us in the senior ranks. As a father myself, I can relate to his general comments about wanting to guide and protect our children as they traverse this inherently unsafe world. Mentorship comes in many forms indeed, in and out of the cockpit.

I've disagreed with many of his takes, just like I've agreed with some of clownshow Danny's take before, so this isn't a blanket endorsement of YT personalities either way. Good discussion so far.

 

[Jim_R]

I'm going to have to start watching Juan Browne with my more critical eye (which one is that, anyway?). He is also indirectly blaming the pilot now before we know much. While he doesn't directly say it, the whole video is about T'-6's and pilots and spin recovery. Not a word about any other possible cause.

I think there's a lot of focus on stall/spin because there were at least two eyewitnesses (one in a plane, one in a boat) who have reported seeing the plane in a spin as it was descending.

 

[PPC1052]

it also made me realize I need to lay off my graduate level... research... of mediocre European female long jump. *checks siiiiiiiix*

That's bush league. You should check out the pole vaulters.

 

[Ed Haywood]

I was speaking to a T-6 owner last year about how it flew. He pointed me to the side of the fuselage, just below the edge of the cockpit, where he had stenciled in 6 inch letters so it would be the last thing he saw before getting in: "DON'T STALL."

 

[Kenny Phillips]

I'm going to have to start watching Juan Browne with my more critical eye (which one is that, anyway?). He is also indirectly blaming the pilot now before we know much. While he doesn't directly say it, the whole video is about T'-6's and pilots and spin recovery. Not a word about any other possible cause.

Ultimately, it appears to have stalled. Unlikely to have any mechanical issue cause a stall. If we blamed 100% of stall/spin accidents on the pilot, we'd be correct 98% of the time. I don't care if the pilot was low time, or not; in history, people with thousands of hours have mis-handled craft. I'm cynical, and I'm giving this crash that label. But it's the "sure thing" bet, isn't it?

 

[sourdough44]

I thought there was ADS track data? No I didn’t watch any analysis about the tragic accident. Then we have some witnesses, though we know require scrutiny.

I think with that, one can get an idea what happened.

 

[DFH65]

Not going to comment on the veracity of DG's comments or the pilot in question's skills but I have flown into OSH 8 years in a row now. 4 years ago I was fast and bounced and began a PIO event that led eventually to a go-around (should have done it after the first bounce but it surprised me and I thought I could salvage it--almost a really bad decision). Anyway the controllers that come in for the show are amazing and are prepared for go arounds and quickly sequence you back into the downwind. Guys succumb to get-there-land-on-the-dot-itis and forget one of the most important tools in their kit bag especially on non-stabilized approaches is the go-around. IMO it's way safer to climb and try again (and ATC would prefer that) than trying to plant it and get it under control on a botched approach especially when there may be guys in front of and behind you on the runway.

I did say, "accepting a little bounce on the landing." When I looked at her landing it wasn't pretty but I have seen far worse hec I have made far worse. Some airplanes are worse for PIO I have heard some Mooneys for example. I was a passenger in one that got pretty sketchy pretty fast.

 

[Fearless Tower]

I've got almost 300 hours in the T6 know. I'm glad no one has a video of my landing at Catalina Island a couple weeks ago......

 

[Fearless Tower]

I'm going to have to start watching Juan Browne with my more critical eye (which one is that, anyway?). He is also indirectly blaming the pilot now before we know much. While he doesn't directly say it, the whole video is about T'-6's and pilots and spin recovery. Not a word about any other possible cause.

It's because there is no other info right now to give us an idea of what the initial cause was.

I just watched Juan's video and while I'm not a huge fan of him, I thought it was one of his better ones. He obviously did more research on the pilot than DG did and kept it respectful while addressing what appears to be known -the airplane spun in from almost 4000'.

 

[Turbo-Arrow-Driver]

It's because there is no other info right now to give us an idea of what the initial cause was.

I just watched Juan's video and while I'm not a huge fan of him, I thought it was one of his better ones. He obviously did more research on the pilot than DG did and kept it respectful while addressing what appears to be known -the airplane spun in from almost 4000'.

Well, I don't disagree with what seems most likely. And I also thought that Juan's video provided good info about handling stalls and spins in the T-6 (never been in one). I just think it would have been better if there was a comment somewhere in there that we don't really know what happened just yet. That said, I agree with what seems likely and I'll shut up and go away now