On my soap box again

[Tom-D]

This seems to have merit.

One Light Bulb at a time...

A physics teacher in high school, once told the students that while one grasshoper on the railroad tracks wouldn't slow a train very much, a billion of them would. With that thought in mind, read the following, obviously written by a good American.
Good idea . . .. one light bulb at a time.

Check this out. I can verify this because I was in Lowes the other day for some reason and just for the heck of it I was looking at the hose attachments. They were all made in China. The next day I was in Ace Hardware and just for the heck of it I checked the hose attachments there. They were made in USA . Start looking.

In our current economic situation, every little thing we buy or do affects someone else - even their job. So, after reading this email, I think this lady is on the right track. Let's get behind her!

My grandson likes Hershey's candy. I noticed, though, that it is marked made inMexico now. I do not buy it any more. My favorite toothpaste Colgate is made in Mexico now. I have switched to Crest. You have to read the labels on everything.

This past weekend I was at Kroger. I needed 60 W light bulbs and Bounce dryer sheets. I was in the light bulb aisle, and right next to the GE brand I normally buy was an off brand labeled, "Everyday Value". I picked up both types of bulbs and compared the stats - they were the same except for the price. The GE bulbs were more money than the Everyday Value brand but the thing that surprised me the most was the fact that GE was made in MEXICO and the Everyday Value brand was made in - get ready for this - the USA in a company in Cleveland, Ohio.
So throw out the myth that you cannot find products you use every day that are made right here.

So on to another aisle - Bounce Dryer Sheets . .. . yep, you guessed it, Bounce cost more money and is made in Canada. The Everyday Value brand was less money and MADE IN THE USA! I did laundry yesterday and the dryer sheets performed just like the Bounce Free I have been using for years and at almost half the price!

My challenge to you is to start reading the labels when you shop for everyday things and see what you can find that is made in the USA - the job you save may be your own or your neighbors!

If you accept the challenge, pass this on to others in your address book so we can all start buying American, one light bulb at a time! Stop buying from overseas companies!

(We should have awakened a decade ago)

Let's get with the program. help our fellow Americans keep their jobs and
create more jobs here in the U. S. A.

 

[RJM62]

How true. Unfortunately, in my industry, almost nothing is made in the USA anymore. But for other purchases, I find

http://stillmadeinusa.com/

to be a great resource. Lotsa links to companies selling American-Made stuff.

-Rich

 

[ScottM]

We should have awakened a decade ago
.

Yes you should have.

 

[Cap'n Jack]

How true. Unfortunately, in my industry, almost nothing is made in the USA anymore. But for other purchases, I find

http://stillmadeinusa.com/

to be a great resource. Lotsa links to companies selling American-Made stuff.

-Rich

The website is helpful but misses a lot of companies because it seems to be targeted on consumer items, rather then goods intended for use by another company.

 

[bbchien]

I just installed a medical exam table in a small office at 3MY. It was made by a large American Medical Furniture producer in West Virginia, and it was a piece of crap. The holes in the structural steel were 3mms or so off from the ferrules in the top, so I had to redrill the steel. $800 bucks.

The problem is, we make c_ap in the USA, our stuff is too pricey (tort cost)and so I'm beginning to think the solution is to MOVE OUT of the USA.

 

[Tom-D]

Yes you should have.

You ?


Aren't you getting a little agressive in your attacks on me?

I know we have a big difference in political views, but you can be civil and not always on the attact, and looking for way to offend.

 

[steingar]

All the scientific equipment in my lab was made in the USA, I was quite particular about that. My hood, incubators, and LN2 freezer were made in Ohio, and they are excellent, and still working a decade later just fine. My Goldwing was made in Ohio and runs like a watch 27 years later. The Honda plant in Marysville is one of the most profitable they own.

 

[ScottM]

You ?


Aren't you getting a little agressive in your attacks on me?

I know we have a big difference in political views, but you can be civil and not always on the attack, and looking for way to offend.

It was not meant as an attack Tom but an affirmation of your own writing that you had arrived at this conclusion late and many of us been sounding this alarm for more than the past decade. IOW I was agreeing with you. How agreeing with you can be considered an attack is beyond me, but I apologize if you felt it was.

 

[Tom-D]

It was not meant as an attack Tom but an affirmation of your own writing that you had arrived at this conclusion late and many of us been sounding this alarm for more than the past decade. IOW I was agreeing with you. how agreeign with you can be considered an attack is beyond me, but I apologize if you felt it was.

simply because you single me out from the rest of the posters, With the statement of "you" should have.

 

[RotorAndWing]

I buy products that will do the job at hand and judge them on their quality not where they are built. While I agree it's good to buy if made in America some US companies are capitalizing on this to put out less quality in hopes of patriotic consumers.

America has lost it's way when it comes to business. If one wants to have a successful business it requires attention to detail, good business practices and of course customer satisfaction. The Japanese learned this decades ago.

 

[Cap'n Jack]

All the scientific equipment in my lab was made in the USA, I was quite particular about that. My hood, incubators, and LN2 freezer were made in Ohio, and they are excellent, and still working a decade later just fine. My Goldwing was made in Ohio and runs like a watch 27 years later. The Honda plant in Marysville is one of the most profitable they own.

That's what I had in mind when I mentioned that http://stillmadeinusa.com/ missed a lot.

You probably know that a lot of Corning products are outsourced to other countries- a lot of glassware, pH meters, etc.

Thank you for supporting the USA. I wish big pharma hadn't outsourced so much discovery chemistry outside of the USA. They are training their future competitors, in addition to the thousands of chemists out of work now.

 

[ScottM]

It was not meant as an attack Tom but an affirmation of your own writing that you had arrived at this conclusion late and many of us been sounding this alarm for more than the past decade. IOW I was agreeing with you. How agreeing with you can be considered an attack is beyond me, but I apologize if you felt it was.

simply because you single me out from the rest of the posters, With the statement of "you" should have.

You lost me. How is my agreeing with you and what you wrote an attack?

 

[Everskyward]

I guess you won't be buying a Skycatcher.

 

[ScottM]

I buy products that will do the job at hand and judge them on their quality not where they are built. While I agree it's good to buy if made in America some US companies are capitalizing on this to put out less quality in hopes of patriotic consumers.

America has lost it's way when it comes to business. If one wants to have a successful business it requires attention to detail, good business practices and of course customer satisfaction. The Japanese learned this decades ago.

The Japanese, Koreans, Germans, etc. Shoot even the Chinese are figuring it out. American business is all about lowering expectation to meet the lowest price point. The thinking here is that cheaper is always equal to better. We know that to not be true at all.

Just look at airline flying. It has gotten to a biz a model where price is the only competing factor. Service, on-time performance, amenities and I would dare say even safety are no longer a factor in selling an airline seat.

For a couple of reasons those seats still sell. Part of it is due to there not really being a lot of alternative to flight. But a bigger part is the American public is not willing to pay for real worth and companies have decided that their only added value is price. Put those two things together and you get lousy service and a low price.

 

[bbchien]

I wish big pharma hadn't outsourced so much discovery chemistry outside of the USA. They are training their future competitors, in addition to the thousands of chemists out of work now.

Big pharma outsourced because of liability concerns unique to the USA.

Current administration has no intent to give any liability relief to hospitals and docs. We'll be travelling to India soon....

Gotta learn hindi....

 

[RotorAndWing]

Big pharma outsourced because of liability concerns unique to the USA.

Yep, our legal system is another contributor to business leaving this country. Add in more and more government interference, high taxation and it becomes obvious why these businesses as well as jobs are leaving.

We have met the enemy and he is us.

 

[ScottM]

Big pharma outsourced because of liability concerns unique to the USA.

Lots of stuff outsourced there and China. India was preferred many times due to it legal climate. It actually will follow their laws which sometimes does not happen in China. For technology the big factor was cost. The labor cost even for university degreed people is many times less than in the US or Europe.

Current administration has no intent to give any liability relief to hospitals and docs. We'll be travelling to India soon....

Lets try to keep it you of the SZ. Drop a note to Dave Taylor. He has some interesting data the effects and non-effects of medical malpractice to overall cost.

Gotta learn hindi....

Naw, India very much a English speaking country for anyone who went at least to HS. It is those people you are likely to be working with.

 

[Everskyward]

Just look at airline flying. It has gotten to a biz a model where price is the only competing factor. Service, on-time performance, amenities and I would dare say even safety are no longer a factor in selling an airline seat.

Are airlines really that different from each other in quality, especially ones which fly comparable equipment? I basically have a choice of 3 airlines on a route which I travel frequently. I normally use airline A. I have occasionally used airline B. Next week I am trying airline C because the price was about 50% less and the times worked out better for me. In fact when I saw the price I couldn't believe it. I thought it was the one-way fare. We'll see how it works out.

 

[ScottM]

Are airlines really that different from each other in quality, especially ones which fly comparable equipment?

Really not that much any longer. It is all about the little things. Like one airline has more 1st class seats than another so I have a better chance at an upgrade seat. Or my favorite is that there is one airline that has seat power in 1st and coach and another that barely has it in 1st. Those things help me choose who to fly on.

I think the airlines have also forgotten about the frequent flier. Those programs keep people coming back to the same brand. But because miles were oversold in the 1990 and early 200's it is darn near impossible to get free seats. I am a top tier flier on two airliners, I get preferential treatment for cashing in miles and it is getting hard for me to find flights.

But I think for a great amount of the public airline travel is now like getting on Greyhound was in the 1970s. It is about cheap and that is it. Think about bus terminals and on board Greyhound bus amenities and that pretty much is the current airline model. The people who can afford better trapping are sitting behind you Mari.

 

[RJM62]

Big pharma outsourced because of liability concerns unique to the USA.

Current administration has no intent to give any liability relief to hospitals and docs. We'll be travelling to India soon....

Gotta learn hindi....

The liability laws in the U.S. are indeed out of control, and not just for docs. My business liability insurance premiums got so high that I dropped the coverage altogether and decided to go naked. The insurance company was realizing a better net on my work than I was.

-Rich

 

[gismo]

America has lost it's way when it comes to business. If one wants to have a successful business it requires attention to detail, good business practices and of course customer satisfaction. The Japanese learned this decades ago.

The ironic thing is they learned it from us.

 

[etsisk]

It was not meant as an attack Tom but an affirmation of your own writing that you had arrived at this conclusion late and many of us been sounding this alarm for more than the past decade. IOW I was agreeing with you. How agreeing with you can be considered an attack is beyond me, but I apologize if you felt it was.

yeah, right.

So if someone, say, does something goofy and posts about it, saying "I'm such an idiot" and you come back and say, seriously, "yes you are", you want us to believe you're agreeing with them and didn't mean anything?

Don't pee on our shoes and try to tell us it's raining.

Not my argument, but some things shouldn't be allowed to pass unremarked...

 

[RotorAndWing]

and decided to go naked.

-Rich

I just got this horrible picture in my mind I can't shake now..........

 

[Cap'n Jack]

Big pharma outsourced because of liability concerns unique to the USA.

Current administration has no intent to give any liability relief to hospitals and docs. We'll be travelling to India soon....

Gotta learn hindi....

Sorry Doctor Bruce. I'm not talking about the manufacturing or the care, or anything I suspect you'll be involved with...not to say those aren't valid concerns.

I'm talking about drug discovery- most of those compounds never make it into clinical trials, much less medicines that we can get with or without a prescription. Natural product drug discovery (plants, bacterial, fngi, marine natural products) got killed off back in the '90s and early 2000s because it is fairly labor intensive. This is despite the majority of drugs being derived from natural products. Parallel synthesis libraries didn't work out- too much junk. Now the synthetic chemistry/discovery is being outsourced to India, China, and some middle European companies. The biological screening is increasingly being outsourced to thse same companies. They develop the compounds that could pass a clinical trial (now they will even run the trial too), the US company merely markets it.

Since this is all discovery phase, there is no liability. Lilly has indicated they are tending to a company with NO employees (except for the board of directors, I suppose).

 

[ScottM]

Sorry Doctor Bruce. I'm not talking about the manufacturing or the care, or anything I suspect you'll be involved with...not to say those aren't valid concerns.

I'm talking about drug discovery- most of those compounds never make it into clinical trials, much less medicines that we can get with or without a prescription. Natural product drug discovery (plants, bacterial, fngi, marine natural products) got killed off back in the '90s and early 2000s because it is fairly labor intensive. This is despite the majority of drugs being derived from natural products. Parallel synthesis libraries didn't work out- too much junk. Now the synthetic chemistry/discovery is being outsourced to India, China, and some middle European companies. The biological screening is increasingly being outsourced to thse same companies. They develop the compounds that could pass a clinical trial (now they will even run the trial too), the US company merely markets it.

Since this is all discovery phase, there is no liability. Lilly has indicated they are tending to a company with NO employees (except for the board of directors, I suppose).

Is not a lot and by a lot I mean most, of the research into Pharma these days happening in academia?

 

[etsisk]

Is not a lot and by a lot I mean most, of the research into Pharma these days happening in academia?

That's a good question - I think it would be hard to quantify, because the goals are different between pharma and academia. Pharma is funding a lot of research, but only the positive stuff is being moved forward as that's what supports their business paradigm. Academia casts a wider net and will follow a negative result - and academia is getting most of its funding through NIH (National Inst. of Health) which is being funded more in order to facilitate more drug research in academia.

I think the differing goals make it apples and oranges.

 

[Cap'n Jack]

A lot is...and always was done by the universities. Payments by big pharma has helped many schools and grad students.

A lot was (and is) done by NIH as well. Taxol was originally discovered by an NIH scientist. There was a bit of a stink since Bristol Meyers Squibb picked up that compound pretty much for a song and has made a fair amount of money off it.

Universities and NIH do pretty much all the natural products work in the USA. China and India have strong programs as well as well as diversified climates to study. A lot of countries won't license US pharmaceutical companies to collect since they feel that if a drug comes out of the collection, the pharma company will reap all the benefits (a legitimate concern). These officials also have overly optimistic expectations of a compound being discovered form natural products making it difficult to come to terms. There is also the issue of a natural compound being active, but molecular structure-activity studies cause design of a synthetic drug that is more active/specific (reducing side effects).

 

[etsisk]

Dept. of Defense is also spending a lot of money with infectious disease vaccine/treatment (and not just for bioweaponry!). They've got a deal going with the govt of Thailand looking at AIDS vaccines, I think.

 

[ScottM]

A lot is...and always was done by the universities. Payments by big pharma has helped many schools and grad students.

A lot was (and is) done by NIH as well. Taxol was originally discovered by an NIH scientist. There was a bit of a stink since Bristol Meyers Squibb picked up that compound pretty much for a song and has made a fair amount of money off it.

Universities and NIH do pretty much all the natural products work in the USA. China and India have strong programs as well as well as diversified climates to study. A lot of countries won't license US pharmaceutical companies to collect since they feel that if a drug comes out of the collection, the pharma company will reap all the benefits (a legitimate concern). These officials also have overly optimistic expectations of a compound being discovered form natural products making it difficult to come to terms. There is also the issue of a natural compound being active, but molecular structure-activity studies cause design of a synthetic drug that is more active/specific (reducing side effects).

I also wonder what effect the Bayh-Dole Act of 1980 has on all of this. That act allowed for the first time researchers, who were receiving federal funds, to patent, claim and keep licensing fees. Up until then anything the federal government funded was to be kept license free. The idea being that since taxpayers funded the research it should all belong to them. This act changed that now research universities could charge those that develop ideas based on their research a fee. In the case of pharma that meant that they would have to pay licensing fees to the universities that did the research and that could impact pharma's margins. Perhaps making pharma look to overseas researchers that would not wish, or could not hold patents, to get cheaper ideas?

 

[Cap'n Jack]

Scott- I really can't say what Bayh-Dole has done. If a company gives a grant to a research group, the company would sometimes outline what they could be entitled to from the research. Steingar probably knows more about this than I.

I do know a lot of professors get a patent and start a small company to develop the idea further- a lot of venture capital has been poured into these companies. If they succeed, they usually get bought out by a pharme company. The pharma company will generally hedge their bet by paying for the research making "milestone" payments as various goals are acheived.

 

[ScottM]

Scott- I really can't say what Bayh-Dole has done. If a company gives a grant to a research group, the company would sometimes outline what they could be entitled to. Steingar probably knows more about this than I.

I do know a lot of professors get a patent and start a small company to develop the idea further- a lot of venture capital has been poured into these companies. If they succeed, they usually get bought out by a pharme company. The pharma company will generally hedge their bet by paying for the research making "milestone" payments as various goals are acheived.

Here is a great article on Bayh-Dole and the affect on bio-industries. It is from 2005 but gives some good background with pro and con arguments.

http://money.cnn.com/magazines/fortune/fortune_archive/2005/09/19/8272884/index.htm

 

[Ted]

The biggest reason why a lot of the bio-med research is getting moved overseas is not liability, it's domestic restrictions on research. At least, that's why my dad told me he set up several research labs in China and India. Cost had something to do with it, but keep in mind it's not cheap for him to send himself and his employees over there to check on things.

I'm all for buying American if the quality is equal or better. Sometimes it is, sometimes it isn't. If it isn't, then why am I telling a company that they can make inferior products and I'll buy them anyway? That only adds to the problem.

 

[ScottM]

The biggest thing you can do to help our economy is to use local services and stores. That does not mean going to local big box store!! use the locally owned business and the profits that are made there are spent there.

 

[bbchien]

Cap'n Jack, the licensure deal (Bayh-Dole) was arranged so that the companies would have more time in the 18 years from discovery to patent expiration than they currently have. If it's free and unregulated, they have to develop a use patent rather early so that they can spend the next average =11 years in R&D, clinical studies etc.

7 years is just not enough to keep the big reseach active pharma companies afloat with all the "misses" and the few "hits".

With intellectual property treated in a proprietary manner, they don't have to apply for a patent until they are pretty sure it's worth the $$ investment.

If Enovid-E was subjected to the current evnironment, there would be no Oral Contraceptives today.

 

[SCCutler]

I have found that, if I do the trouble to carefully research, I can secure better-quality products in domestically-produced goods.

By way of example, when I was shopping for replacement faucet cartridges for some fixtures in our home, I noted that I could buy one of two compatible pieces- one, domestically-manufactured, one made in China. The US-built part was markedly better in appearance, better-looking machined surfaces, and more brass, less plastic. The US-made part was more costly (not a whole lot, but not inconsequential), but also clearly provided better value. I bought it.

Had they been absolutely identical in quality, and the US-made part not too terribly much more, I'd still buy the US-made piece; I am well-aware of the difference in workplace laws and other business regulations between China and the US.

I will not buy poorer-quality goods solely for the purpose of buying American, but I find that, where the US-made option exists, it is almost always the better quality as well.

The myth of foreign products being inherently superior is just that- a myth. Most foreign manufacturers (the Japanese car companies are an excellent example) did not gain their market share by being better- they were CHEAP, and good enough for the cheap to gain buyers. The "good" part came later, and allowed them to secure the well-earned reputation for quality. What is ridiculous, however, is the apparent presumption now, in pop culture, that American goods are inferior- silly.

I ascribe the significant move from domestic to offshore manufacturing, in large measure, to the quarter-by-quarter focus of most corporate boards, the near absence of long-term strategy and the environment in which the Board can work for such strategy.

Before I ran off to law school, I worked for a US manufacturer which built, soup to nuts, fairly complex machines which were markedly better, in every meaningful way, than their competition from Japan; put one of ours next to the ones from Minolta or Canon, and ours were better- worked better new, lasted longer and were repairable over a much longer time frame than the Asian competition. But, the company had decent profits, paid dividends and (most tragically) had piles of cash- was worth more broken-up than it was as a going concern, so broken-up it was in a LBO.

 

[ScottM]

Cap'n Jack, the licensure deal (Bayh-Dole) was arranged so that the companies would have more time in the 18 years from discovery to patent expiration than they currently have. If it's free and unregulated, they have to develop a use patent rather early so that they can spend the next average =11 years in R&D, clinical studies etc.

7 years is just not enough to keep the big reseach active pharma companies afloat with all the "misses" and the few "hits".

With intellectual property treated in a proprietary manner, they don't have to apply for a patent until they are pretty sure it's worth the $$ investment.

If Enovid-E was subjected to the current evnironment, there would be no Oral Contraceptives today.

I am unaware of any extension of the patent enforcement period with this act for pharma. Can you point me to where that is mentioned?

Also everyone keep in mind that US Patent laws only apply to US patents. Regardless of where an invention is made it can and often is patented in many different countries and each patent is treated according to local laws.

 

[Cap'n Jack]

Cap'n Jack, the licensure deal (Bayh-Dole) was arranged so that the companies would have more time in the 18 years from discovery to patent expiration than they currently have. If it's free and unregulated, they have to develop a use patent rather early so that they can spend the next average =11 years in R&D, clinical studies etc.

The reason for the act may be true but, IIRC, part of the enabling legislature for NAFTA changed the period for a patent to 20 years

7 years is just not enough to keep the big reseach active pharma companies afloat with all the "misses" and the few "hits".

With intellectual property treated in a proprietary manner, they don't have to apply for a patent until they are pretty sure it's worth the $$ investment.

If Enovid-E was subjected to the current evnironment, there would be no Oral Contraceptives today.

Agreed with this part- an awful lot of work needs to be done to go from molecule to drug.

 

[Cap'n Jack]

The biggest reason why a lot of the bio-med research is getting moved overseas is not liability, it's domestic restrictions on research. At least, that's why my dad told me he set up several research labs in China and India. Cost had something to do with it, but keep in mind it's not cheap for him to send himself and his employees over there to check on things.

I'm all for buying American if the quality is equal or better. Sometimes it is, sometimes it isn't. If it isn't, then why am I telling a company that they can make inferior products and I'll buy them anyway? That only adds to the problem.

What research?
Stem cells, work involving animals- yeah.

Chemistry/screening- it was just money. Do the same work for less money. This may be fine in the short term, but Wuxi (one of the largest companies doing work for the pharma industry) is going to eat their lunch in a few years. The American pharma companies (nearly all of them) taught them everything they need to know to become a pharmaceutical powerhouse.

Lenin was right- the capitalists would sell the communists the rope to hang themselves with.

 

[Cap'n Jack]

Along the lines here - all Visegrip is made in China now. Irwin tools had a plant someplace in rural Nebraska (well, that narrows the location down, doesn't it?) that they closed and moved the production to China earlier this year. Town of ~700 people; over 1/2 worked at this plant. That HAD to hurt.

If I cant get an equivalent to Vise Grip made in the USA, I'll go to Harbor Freight and buy the cheap ones that probably came from the same plant.

 

[RJM62]

....

I ascribe the significant move from domestic to offshore manufacturing, in large measure, to the quarter-by-quarter focus of most corporate boards, the near absence of long-term strategy and the environment in which the Board can work for such strategy.

....

New Balance Athletic Shoes makes some of its shoes in the United States and some in China.

Back a few years ago (although I'm told this has now changed), there were some models of New Balance shoes that were manufactured both in the United States and China. Whether the pair you bought was made here or there was pretty much a crap shoot.

I had been told about this by my father (a labor union official), who also told me to open the actual shoe box and look inside the shoes for the country of origin, rather than simply assuming that every pair of a particular model of shoe was made here. (The shoe boxes didn't list the country of origin.)

Guess what: He was right. Within the same shoe model, only about a quarter of the shoes were made in the USA. Three quarters were made in China.

Notably, however, the prices of the shoes were the same regardless of where they were made.

This observation makes me wonder whether New Balance's whole "Made in the USA" marketing stance is nothing but an opportunistic hoax, perpetrated in the hope that patriotic American consumers will simply assume that all New Balance shoes are made here instead of opening boxes and reading labels.

-Rich