Old topic, new story...MOAs

[Fancy]

Ladies and gents,

I was working today (if one could call it that) and had a real close pass with a B36ish looking thing in a certain socal MOA. I saw him with just enough time to maneuver clear and thankfully had the g available to do so. I'm pretty sure what cued him to my existence were the wicked vapes coming off my jet. It clearly scared him as the last thing I saw before going over his head was his bank angle approximately 70+ degrees and nose down. Hope he didn't overstress that thing! He was NW bound at 14,500. MOA was active from 5k-FL260, relatively small MOA as we try not to schedule the whole thing. Four jets, 600+ knots, two with excellent radars and two without. Yikes.

1) Was anything illegal? Nope. Just one of those "that was close" moments.
2) Anyone hurt? Hope not.
3) Possible alternative outcome? I was doing ~250kts when this happened. If a midair had occurred, given our geometry I most likely would've clipped the tail. Chances are I would've been able to nurse it back on deck or eject. Not so for the other guy.

Add it to the sea story log. I sincerely hope the pilot and his machine are ok.

Stay safe out there humans!!

 

[benyflyguy]

Wow that sounds close!!! Scary moment for sure!!

 

[Cooter]

2 categories of response:

1. What’re you trying to say, that GA has no right to be there? Well obviously the FAA disagrees b/c flying through MOAs is perfectly legal. If it was unsafe as you make it sound, they would ban it.

2. Wow, sounds scary. I always call to see if the MOA is active, and if it is I go around. It only adds a few minutes to my time.

 

[asicer]

Were you talking and squawking?

 

[Cap'n Jack]

B-36ish? If I'm reading as you intended, those are rather large.

 

[NoHeat]

B-36ish?

You mean a huge fixed wing airplane with lots of propellers?

I wonder what that could have been.

 

[Huckster79]

They aren’t as big as a BMF4E though!

 

[AnthonyS1]

Are any military aircraft shown on ADS-B in?

 

[jimhorner]

Ladies and gents,

I was working today (if one could call it that) and had a real close pass with a B36ish looking thing in a certain socal MOA.

B36ish? Really? Kinda doubtful about that....

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[Lindberg]

2 categories of response:

1. What’re you trying to say, that GA has no right to be there? Well obviously the FAA disagrees b/c flying through MOAs is perfectly legal. If it was unsafe as you make it sound, they would ban it.

2. Wow, sounds scary. I always call to see if the MOA is active, and if it is I go around. It only adds a few minutes to my time.

3. See and avoid and the right-of-way rules apply in and out of MOAs.

 

[Let'sgoflying!]

We probably need to engage in conversation with the services using MOAs.
They are apparently being taught they own these vast parcels of airspace and that if a mishap occurs, that’s solely our fault.

Further, we need to ensure they do not grab yet more airspace by converting moas to R-space, or (the misnomer), TFR.

 

[Fancy]

All good points/questions.

1) Should've been more clear on A/C nomenclature. By B36ish I meant a Bonanza type aircraft. Since that is only one very specific variant I should've just said bonanza-ish. My apologies and I will be the first to admit that my recce timing was a bit tight.

2) Someone up there asked if we were talking and squawking. Yes, we all squawk modes 1-4. "Talking" is highly dependent on the MOA. They all have discreet frequencies which is almost always UHF (this should be changed in my view as I have never flown a GA aircraft with a UHF capability). In this case however, the local Approach controller controls the MOA and we were talking to them. Why they didn't warn us was a point of contention when we landed and there was a phone call placed to ask why we never got a warning. The answer was that they didn't see him and weren't talking to any civil traffic at the time.

3) Most, if not all, fighters do not have an ADS-B capability of any type. We actually don't know what is going to come of that for us. The current aircraft I fly will, for sure, never have this capability however.

4)

We probably need to engage in conversation with the services using MOAs.
They are apparently being taught they own these vast parcels of airspace and that if a mishap occurs, that’s solely our fault.

Further, we need to ensure they do not grab yet more airspace by converting moas to R-space, or (the misnomer), TFR.

No one is being taught we "own" these pieces of airspace. We share them and in no way am I implying that GA can't go in there. By all means, go on through (I do when I fly GA, although I always ask if they're hot before doing so). But, just like anything else in aviation, that decision comes with some level of risk. There are ways to mitigate it on both sides and at the end of the day I am not aware of a GA/MIL midair in a MOA. Close calls do happen, and based on my experience are under reported. I can't go around and have a conversation with every pilot in north america. But I can post a story to this fine forum. I personally try not to do this type of training in MOAs for this exact reason. It freaks me out and I know pilots have differing views on their utility. Unfortunately circumstances beyond our control THIS time dictated different. As far as a mishap being your fault, absolutely not! No way. Nope. Nope. Nope. Where did I imply that? I do not want to give that impression. Ugh, NO! Unfortunately though the chances of a GA pilot surviving a midair of that type are next to none.

 

[luvflyin]

Ladies and gents,

I was working today (if one could call it that) and had a real close pass with a B36ish looking thing in a certain socal MOA. I saw him with just enough time to maneuver clear and thankfully had the g available to do so. I'm pretty sure what cued him to my existence were the wicked vapes coming off my jet. It clearly scared him as the last thing I saw before going over his head was his bank angle approximately 70+ degrees and nose down. Hope he didn't overstress that thing! He was NW bound at 14,500. MOA was active from 5k-FL260, relatively small MOA as we try not to schedule the whole thing. Four jets, 600+ knots, two with excellent radars and two without. Yikes.

1) Was anything illegal? Nope. Just one of those "that was close" moments.
2) Anyone hurt? Hope not.
3) Possible alternative outcome? I was doing ~250kts when this happened. If a midair had occurred, given our geometry I most likely would've clipped the tail. Chances are I would've been able to nurse it back on deck or eject. Not so for the other guy.

Add it to the sea story log. I sincerely hope the pilot and his machine are ok.

Stay safe out there humans!!

It was you and this B36ish looking thing. How does "Four jets, 600+ knots, two with excellent radars and two without" fit into this?

 

[Fancy]

It was you and this B36ish looking thing. How does "Four jets, 600+ knots, two with excellent radars and two without" fit into this?

There were five total aircraft in the MOA. Me and my wingman, our bandits (2 bad guys), and the civil traffic. I was just painting a picture. Could've been a close call with anyone of the MIL players I guess, I just happened to be the one in the right (wrong?) piece of sky.

Sorry if it was irrelevant information.

 

[Terry M - 3CK (Chicago)]

@Fancy welcome aboard and thanks for your service.

Everyone knew you meant a bonanza.

This place used to be helpful to learn and civilized. Seems that’s changed in the past two years.

Glad you’re here. Ignore the asshats.

 

[WillFly4Food]

It was my understanding that when a non-military aircraft enters a hot MOA, that the controllers inform the military pilots and the exercise is suspended until the non-mil exits the MOA. ?

 

[Fancy]

It was my understanding that when a non-military aircraft enters a hot MOA, that the controllers inform the military pilots and the exercise is suspended until the non-mil exits the MOA. ?

That is the way it is suppose to work. In this case, as mentioned later on, the controllers (for whatever reason) didn't have the GA aircraft. It happens more than you'd think that controllers don't let us know though. The controllers in this case our co-located with the OP area and we (the whole flight) had some questions for them when we landed.

You are correct in your assertion that we stop until traffic is clear. Today a "Knock-it-off" was immediately called on MOA common by myself, and deconfliction established among all players. Due the unusual attitude that I last saw the GA aircraft in we went a took a look to make sure they were ok without getting too close. It happened during our last run so training was complete anyways. We called it a day.

 

[jimhorner]

@Fancy
Everyone knew you meant a bonanza.

Actually, no. When I read/hear B36, I think cold war bomber. Excuse me for not having any idea about the various Beech nomenclatures.

Same as when I see TBM. My mind goes to Avenger, not the civil aviation product.






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[Tommar98]

Pretty mind boggling that a bonanza is at 14,500 and not talking to ATC AND flying through an MOA. Seems like that’s just asking for a problem.


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[champ driver]

I didn't, first thing I thought of was the Convair B-36, and I thought clearly the OP didn't know what he was talking about.
Just like a B17 could be a Boeing B-17 or a Beechcraft B17 Staggerwing.

 

[Let'sgoflying!]

There are huge parts of the NAS that have large sections carved out by SUA.
Open FF maps right now and plot LBB (Tx panhandle) to anywhere in socal - say, SAN.
To avoid it all, you have to fly a wild zigzag, often threading a needle.

I would not be so silly to suggest we don’t support our military - but I fear further airspace grabs by their reaction to what happens in MOAs. Pretty sure there was one MOA in the east 10? years ago that was swallowed up as R-space and that trend poses a scary scenario to me.

We understand, and accept the risks of what happens in MOAs. Yes, let’s continue to do all we can on both sides to mitigate the risk. But let’s not over-react. We know if that happens, the response won’t be to remove MOAs from the chart; it will be make them less accessible to GA.

 

[PaulS]

Scared???, he was turning and burning to get you in his gun sights. He's ****ed you ran from the fight!

Oh, and no ads-b in a fighter jet, that hardly seems fair for your adversaries, how will they know you are there?

AND, thanks for your service.

Edit: I knew you meant a Bonanza.

 

[luvflyin]

There were five total aircraft in the MOA. Me and my wingman, our bandits (2 bad guys), and the civil traffic. I was just painting a picture. Could've been a close call with anyone of the MIL players I guess, I just happened to be the one in the right (wrong?) piece of sky.

Sorry if it was irrelevant information.

No apology needed. I should have seen that. But I had this picture of you being in some kind of formation when it happened.

 

[skier]

@FancyEveryone knew you meant a bonanza.

I was another one that saw B36 and thought of the old bomber. Especially since it was clear we were talking military jets in an active MOA. Though I was confused why the OP was referring to an aircraft retired from service in 1959.

FWIW, if you google B36, the bomber comes up. The Bonanza isn't even on the the first 5 pages of search results. In google images, the bonanza doesn't show up until the 15th line of image results.

 

[Clip4]

Ladies and gents,

I was working today (if one could call it that) and had a real close pass with a B36ish looking thing in a certain socal MOA. I saw him with just enough time to maneuver clear and thankfully had the g available to do so. I'm pretty sure what cued him to my existence were the wicked vapes coming off my jet. It clearly scared him as the last thing I saw before going over his head was his bank angle approximately 70+ degrees and nose down. Hope he didn't overstress that thing! He was NW bound at 14,500. MOA was active from 5k-FL260, relatively small MOA as we try not to schedule the whole thing. Four jets, 600+ knots, two with excellent radars and two without. Yikes.

1) Was anything illegal? Nope. Just one of those "that was close" moments.
2) Anyone hurt? Hope not.
3) Possible alternative outcome? I was doing ~250kts when this happened. If a midair had occurred, given our geometry I most likely would've clipped the tail. Chances are I would've been able to nurse it back on deck or eject. Not so for the other guy.

Add it to the sea story log. I sincerely hope the pilot and his machine are ok.

Stay safe out there humans!!

Well hopefully you learned that you share that MOA with civilian aircraft and to be more vigilant.

 

[Cooter]

There are huge parts of the NAS that have large sections carved out by SUA.
Open FF maps right now and plot LBB (Tx panhandle) to anywhere in socal - say, SAN.
To avoid it all, you have to fly a wild zigzag, often threading a needle.

I would not be so silly to suggest we don’t support our military - but I fear further airspace grabs by their reaction to what happens in MOAs. Pretty sure there was one MOA in the east 10? years ago that was swallowed up as R-space and that trend poses a scary scenario to me.

We understand, and accept the risks of what happens in MOAs. Yes, let’s continue to do all we can on both sides to mitigate the risk. But let’s not over-react. We know if that happens, the response won’t be to remove MOAs from the chart; it will be make them less accessible to GA.

The process isn’t quite like you make it seem. The military can’t just grab more airspace or convert MOAs to R. Like many other bureaucratic processes, acquiring airspace is slow and burdensome and yields little fruit. The pressure actually comes from the other direction. If fact, about 15 years ago, the AF created a whole new scheduling system that tracks and reports actual usage b/c of the threat of losing airspace. Commercial operators are very aware of the cost imposed by being routed around SUA and make that cost known. When use is having to be regularly defended, adding more is unlikely. And, any change in SUA type will be driven by the activities that occur within the airspace, not by the amount of non-participating traffic that transits it.

 

[kyleb]

Going South from here to Florida, you have to work pretty hard to avoid MOA's. I do fly through them, but keep my eyes open in recognition that there can always be military aircraft in the airspace. I'm surprised in this situation that the Beechcraft wasn't called out to the fighters. Given his altitude and aircraft type, you'd think that he'd be squawking and visible to every radar in a couple hundred miles. Sometimes things just don't work the way they are supposed to.

Thanks for missing the guy and providing a real world reminder that flying through MOA's comes with real risks.

Oh, and ignore the folks who go out of their way to be jerks.

 

[Terry M - 3CK (Chicago)]

Ok. I guess I’m naive.

To me the 50s era bomber didn’t fit in the story. I “assumed” being an F-18 jet jockey (ETA: I made the F-18 part up, I don’t know what branch he flies for - just trying to lighten the mood a bit) he was saying B-36 like c-172 or similar.

I met an A320 captain for United who said he was asked to partner in one of those Cessnas. After asking him about the plane it was actually an . . . Archer.

I generally give OPs the benefit of the doubt. I guess I should on the responses too. Just struck me as confrontational with a relatively new poster to the board.

@Cap'n Jack - I wasn’t referring to you, but I likely misread some tone in comments first time through. I need to get back in the air and work off this outlook!

 

[Cap'n Jack]

Going South from here to Florida, you have to work pretty hard to avoid MOA's. I do fly through them, but keep my eyes open in recognition that there can always be military aircraft in the airspace. I'm surprised in this situation that the Beechcraft wasn't called out to the fighters. Given his altitude and aircraft type, you'd think that he'd be squawking and visible to every radar in a couple hundred miles. Sometimes things just don't work the way they are supposed to.

Thanks for missing the guy and providing a real world reminder that flying through MOA's comes with real risks.

Oh, and ignore the folks who go out of their way to be jerks.

Please look at my reply again- I really wasn't trying to be a jerk.

@Fancy welcome aboard and thanks for your service.

Everyone knew you meant a bonanza.

This place used to be helpful to learn and civilized. Seems that’s changed in the past two years.

Glad you’re here. Ignore the asshats.

Please look at the phrasing of my reply- I obviously left open the possibility I didn't read what he intended to state. I didn't know the Bonanza designation either.

Actually, no. When I read/hear B36, I think cold war bomber. Excuse me for not having any idea about the various Beech nomenclatures.

Same as when I see TBM. My mind goes to Avenger, not the civil aviation product.
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What he said. I thought it was the old bomber too.

 

[Cap'n Jack]

All good points/questions.

1) Should've been more clear on A/C nomenclature. By B36ish I meant a Bonanza type aircraft. Since that is only one very specific variant I should've just said bonanza-ish. My apologies and I will be the first to admit that my recce timing was a bit tight.

2) Someone up there asked if we were talking and squawking. Yes, we all squawk modes 1-4. "Talking" is highly dependent on the MOA. They all have discreet frequencies which is almost always UHF (this should be changed in my view as I have never flown a GA aircraft with a UHF capability). In this case however, the local Approach controller controls the MOA and we were talking to them. Why they didn't warn us was a point of contention when we landed and there was a phone call placed to ask why we never got a warning. The answer was that they didn't see him and weren't talking to any civil traffic at the time.

3) Most, if not all, fighters do not have an ADS-B capability of any type. We actually don't know what is going to come of that for us. The current aircraft I fly will, for sure, never have this capability however.

4)

No one is being taught we "own" these pieces of airspace. We share them and in no way am I implying that GA can't go in there. By all means, go on through (I do when I fly GA, although I always ask if they're hot before doing so). But, just like anything else in aviation, that decision comes with some level of risk. There are ways to mitigate it on both sides and at the end of the day I am not aware of a GA/MIL midair in a MOA. Close calls do happen, and based on my experience are under reported. I can't go around and have a conversation with every pilot in north america. But I can post a story to this fine forum. I personally try not to do this type of training in MOAs for this exact reason. It freaks me out and I know pilots have differing views on their utility. Unfortunately circumstances beyond our control THIS time dictated different. As far as a mishap being your fault, absolutely not! No way. Nope. Nope. Nope. Where did I imply that? I do not want to give that impression. Ugh, NO! Unfortunately though the chances of a GA pilot surviving a midair of that type are next to none.

Thanks for the information and reminder. Welcome to the group. and thanks for your service.

 

[jimhorner]

Ok. I guess I’m naive.

To me the 50s era bomber didn’t fit in the story. I “assumed” being an F-18 jet jockey he was saying B-36 like c-172 or similar.

I met an A320 captain for United who said he was asked to partner in one of those Cessnas. After asking him about the plane it was actually an . . . Archer.

I generally give OPs the benefit of the doubt. I guess I should on the responses too. Just struck me as confrontational with a relatively new poster to the board.

@Cap'n Jack - I wasn’t referring to you, but I likely misread some tone in comments first time through. I need to get back in the air and work off this outlook!

He never said that he was a F18 pilot. That info isn’t in his original post. When the first few lines of a post state that someone had a close encounter with an obsolete cold war era bomber, it becomes hard to parse the rest of the post in that context. Here’s his introduction...

Ladies and gents,

I was working today (if one could call it that) and had a real close pass with a B36ish looking thing in a certain socal MOA.

When one sees that and thinks that the OP is claiming to have had an encounter with a large, obsolete, cold war era plane that hasn’t flown in decades, cognitive dissonance begins to set in...

I certainly see what the OP is saying now, but ya gotta admit, he didn’t lead off with the fact that he was a military guy flying fighters in an MOA. To be honest, my original reading of his post lead me to believe he was the civilian and had an encounter with some large military plane which he couldn’t properly identify.

No offense to the OP. I certainly thank him for his service, and I’m pretty green with envy that he has a job getting to fly fast jets that way.

I hope we get a report from the OP on why ATC didn’t report the Bonanza. Personally, although I realize that we have a right to fly through the MOAs, I always ask if they’re hot before going in. As a taxpayer, I want our military folks to be able to train effectively and efficiently, and it wastes a lot of training time and jet fuel if they have to halt an exercise waiting for some slow GA bird to fly through the MOA.


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[Kenny Phillips]

B36ish? Really? Kinda doubtful about that....

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Designed by committee!

 

[EdFred]

Transponders are required above 10K. ATC says they didn't see him? Either ATC needs an eye exam, or the Bo was flying with his transponder off. If the former, ATC needs their feet held to the fire, especially with the speeds you guys are at. If the latter, I sort of hope you would have took his tail off and he became a scrap heap on a hillside somewhere. We need less morons in the air.

 

[Cooter]

It isn’t uncommon for people to turn their squawk off in order to transit MOAs.

 

[EdFred]

It isn’t uncommon for people to turn their squawk off in order to transit MOAs.

And those people should be....well....target practice.

(unless of course you don't have a transponder to begin with)

 

[kyleb]

It isn’t uncommon for people to turn their squawk off in order to transit MOAs.

That would be stupid, compounded. Why would anyone do that?

You are allowed to fly through MOA's. You'd absolutely want your Txp on to give the go-fast folks a better chance to see you.

 

[Zeldman]

Actually, when I read B36sh, this image popped into my head....

Pretty mind boggling that a bonanza is at 14,500 and not talking to ATC AND flying through an MOA. Seems like that’s just asking for a problem.

Depends on the area. Around here 14,500 MSL is around 8000 AGL. I would fly up to 17,500 MSL VFR but on a minimum of flight following. There is a triangular shaped Restricted area (R-5117, I believe) a few miles from the home airport that we routinely ignore, unless there is an old red Huey parked on the ramp. That means the Restricted area will be hot in the next couple weeks. There is even a Victor airway (V-291) that goes through R-5117.

 

[Terry M - 3CK (Chicago)]

@jimhorner I made the F-18 part up. I don’t know what branch he flies for or what equipment.

I need to see things from others point of view. I “assumed” people were piling on as I’ve seen happen to others here. With him being a new guy and military I probably jumped the gun a bit.

@Cooter do you know people that turn the xpdr off in an MOA? I don’t follow the logic there.

 

[Cooter]

I know of people doing it. The logic is to not be bothered with it.

 

[kyleb]

I know of people doing it. The logic is to not be bothered with it.

Is it even legal to turn off your Txp if equipped?