Obtaining IFR Clearance Question

AggieMike88

AggieMike88

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The original "I don't know it all" of aviation.
A recent VFR flight from Temple, TX (KTPL) to Dallas Executive (KRBD) had me thinking ahead to doing it under IFR rules.

Looking for tips to obtain my IFR clearance while in flight.

Say I file a IFR flight plan from KTPL to KRBD and get the acknowledgement it's in the system. It's a VFR day, so I take off and turn northward to KRBD.

With VFR FF, I'm familiar with calling up Gray Approach, asking FF and feeding them the aircraft type and cruise altitude. I get the squawk, hear "Radar Contact", and we continue on our merry way.


What I'd like to know is the phrasing to advise the controller that I have a IFR plan on file, so he can find it and provide me my IFR clearance.
 
I just contact approach and ask for my IFR clearance to kxyz

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AggieMike88 said:
A recent VFR flight from Temple, TX (KTPL) to Dallas Executive (KRBD) had me thinking ahead to doing it under IFR rules.

Looking for tips to obtain my IFR clearance while in flight.

Say I file a IFR flight plan from KTPL to KRBD and get the acknowledgement it's in the system. It's a VFR day, so I take off and turn northward to KRBD.

With VFR FF, I'm familiar with calling up Gray Approach, asking FF and feeding them the aircraft type and cruise altitude. I get the squawk, hear "Radar Contact", and we continue on our merry way.


What I'd like to know is the phrasing to advise the controller that I have a IFR plan on file, so he can find it and provide me my IFR clearance.
Click to expand...

Haven't there been like a billion threads about this? Or was that on the red board? And didn't your instructor do an VFR departure pick your clearance up in the air? :)

Basically you file an IFR flightplan, depart VFR and call the ATC facility that handles the airport that you departed from and issues you a route and clearance in the air. Much simpler, really.
 
AggieMike88 said:
A recent VFR flight from Temple, TX (KTPL) to Dallas Executive (KRBD) had me thinking ahead to doing it under IFR rules.

Looking for tips to obtain my IFR clearance while in flight.

Say I file a IFR flight plan from KTPL to KRBD and get the acknowledgement it's in the system. It's a VFR day, so I take off and turn northward to KRBD.

With VFR FF, I'm familiar with calling up Gray Approach, asking FF and feeding them the aircraft type and cruise altitude. I get the squawk, hear "Radar Contact", and we continue on our merry way.


What I'd like to know is the phrasing to advise the controller that I have a IFR plan on file, so he can find it and provide me my IFR clearance.
Click to expand...


When you first call them up they'll probably see your IFR flight plan, otherwise just say "Approach, Aircraft 123, X miles NE of ABC, looking for our IFR". Or something along those lines.


I've often taken off with a IFR flight plan and not picked it up right away, or have terminated IFR and done the last leg VFR with FF.
 
Call em up and ask for your IFR plan......vs your flight following. Same difference, similar response from ATc.
 
I prefer to get it on the ground for a few reasons

1) you must maintain VFR until you complete the readback, think full route clearance and radio reception issues
2) an initial full route clearance will at to the workload for no reason
3) terrain may impact radio reception and delay your clearance

I've had times taking of into 3k overcast where we had to circle because atc couldn't get us a timely clearance on route

Sent from my Nexus 6 using Tapatalk
 
airheadpenguin said:
I prefer to get it on the ground for a few reasons

1) you must maintain VFR until you complete the readback, think full route clearance and radio reception issues
2) an initial full route clearance will at to the workload for no reason
3) terrain may impact radio reception and delay your clearance

I've had times taking of into 3k overcast where we had to circle because atc couldn't get us a timely clearance on route

Sent from my Nexus 6 using Tapatalk
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Not sure what part of NH you're in, but if the airspace is owned by Boston Center you might even have to argue with them to get the clearance at all until you've reached the minimum IFR altitude for the sector, which is very often above the bases even on good VFR days. I need to give that facility a call and find out why their policy is different depending on whether you are doing an airborne pickup vs. getting your clearance on the ground.

If there is a usable clearance delivery frequency for the departure airport, I usually call them on the ground, and only pick up my clearance in the air if the alternative would mean shutting down and using the cellphone (which is sometimes necessary anyway).
 
I haven't had that problem but being at 0b5 from time to time you have to get above the ridge to even get Boston center to start the process. If it's clear at my departure end and IFR is needed enroute or at the destination picking it up in the air can add efficiency.

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Checkout_my_Six said:
Call em up and ask for your IFR plan......vs your flight following. Same difference, similar response from ATc.
Click to expand...

So something like:

AM88: "Grey Departure, November-five-five-whiskey-bravo"
ATC: "N55WB go ahead"
AM88: "55WB is 1.5 miles northeast of Temple airport, climbing through 1800 feet, I'd like to pick up my IFR flight plan and clearance to Dallas Executive."
ATC: "55WB, standby for clearance and beacon code."​


@ Brad Z: Easy big fella. Perhaps the CFII did cover it, but there has been such a lapse in time since I did the full press IFR training that I have forgotten this detail.
 
Who you are, where you are, what you want.

Here's how mine generally goes:
"Potomac approach, Comanche 7982P, x miles west of EMI at 2500, clearance"
"7982P, radar contact, squawk xxxx, stand by"

They'll know where I want to go when they punch in my n number.

And if all is well with the world, I hear "cleared as filed".
 
AggieMike88 said:
So something like:

AM88: "Grey Departure, November-five-five-whiskey-bravo"
ATC: "N55WB go ahead"
AM88: "55WB is 1.5 miles northeast of Temple airport, climbing through 1800 feet, I'd like to pick up my IFR flight plan and clearance to Dallas Executive."
ATC: "55WB, standby for clearance and beacon code."​


@ Brad Z: Easy big fella. Perhaps the CFII did cover it, but there has been such a lapse in time since I did the full press IFR training that I have forgotten this detail.
Click to expand...
yup....easy peasy....lemon squeezie. :yes:...but, Chip said it better than I and in less transmissions.

....and if all isn't well...you'll likely be vectored while the back and forth with until your EFC route is established.
 
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AggieMike88 said:
@ Brad Z: Easy big fella. Perhaps the CFII did cover it, but there has been such a lapse in time since I did the full press IFR training that I have forgotten this detail.
Click to expand...

I'm giving you a hard time since Ron did your Instrument Training, right?

Seriously though, if you have the means, go over to the red board and check out the thread on picking up clearances in the air. There's some good information. The gist of it is that 1) it's easier than getting a clearance with a void time from a non-towered field, 2) in some places controllers prefer it, some places they hate it, 3)it's not always easy to do out in the boonies or in really busy airspace, and 4) you better make darn sure you can remain VFR if you're going to do it that way.
 
AggieMike88 said:
So something like:
AM88: "Grey Departure, November-five-five-whiskey-bravo"
ATC: "N55WB go ahead"
AM88: "55WB is 1.5 miles northeast of Temple airport, climbing through 1800 feet, I'd like to pick up my IFR flight plan and clearance to Dallas Executive."
ATC: "55WB, standby for clearance and beacon code."
​
Click to expand...
In my experience, after you give your position and request to pick up your IFR clearance, ATC will respond with something along the lines of '55WB, Squawk XXXX and maintain VFR"

Acknowledge the squawk and they will then call you back with your clearance when they are ready.

As mentioned earlier, the important thing to remember is that you are not IFR until they clear you.
 
airheadpenguin said:
I haven't had that problem but being at 0b5 from time to time you have to get above the ridge to even get Boston center to start the process. If it's clear at my departure end and IFR is needed enroute or at the destination picking it up in the air can add efficiency.

Sent from my Nexus 6 using Tapatalk
Click to expand...
It looks like the MIA around 0B5 can't be lower than 3500 or 4000, so you probably wouldn't run into it often. Farther north, particularly around LEB or in VT, the MIAs are over 5000 - around MVL I think more like 6000. They can hear you much lower in many places (luckily) - on the ground at MPV in fact. But picking up a clearance airborne from around MPV can be a hassle.
 
'Just' VFR is probably not good enough. You have to be able to be VFR at or above the minimum vectoring altitude (MVA) for your location.

I tried to pick up a clearance under a low ceiling (1800 MSL in this case over 700 MSL terrain) a few months ago and was asked if I could/would accept responsibility for obstacle clearance up to 2300 MSL. I asked why and was told they can no longer issue a clearance until the aircraft is at or above the local MVA. So I just landed and got my clearance over the phone.
 
DGlaeser said:
I tried to pick up a clearance under a low ceiling (1800 MSL in this case over 700 MSL terrain) a few months ago and was asked if I could/would accept responsibility for obstacle clearance up to 2300 MSL. I asked why and was told they can no longer issue a clearance until the aircraft is at or above the local MVA. So I just landed and got my clearance over the phone.
Click to expand...
My understanding is that this is a standard question that ATC asks when the aircraft is currently below the MVA (or perhaps the MIA). I'm surprised this is something new for them. Was this Detroit Approach or some other facility? (I've been asked that question by Detroit Approach.)

The "not allowed to issue a clearance until the aircraft is at or above xxx" is exactly what ZBW has told me. They don't even ask if you can maintain terrain and obstruction clearance. If you volunteer that information, they will tell you to stand by and then a couple of minutes later they come back with the clearance they told you they couldn't issue.

Of course, if you're not sure whether you can maintain your own clearance, you shouldn't say that you can, so I'm not arguing with what you did. I'm just a bit confused as to whether there is anything new here, and if so, whether things have changed in the 7110.65, or these new policies are strictly local to the facilities.
 
DGlaeser said:
'Just' VFR is probably not good enough. You have to be able to be VFR at or above the minimum vectoring altitude (MVA) for your location.

I tried to pick up a clearance under a low ceiling (1800 MSL in this case over 700 MSL terrain) a few months ago and was asked if I could/would accept responsibility for obstacle clearance up to 2300 MSL. I asked why and was told they can no longer issue a clearance until the aircraft is at or above the local MVA. So I just landed and got my clearance over the phone.
Click to expand...

You can get a clearance below the MVA while IMC. It's laid out in the .65 and it isn't anything new.

If by the book, you're whole transaction should have gone something like this:

"XYZ approach N12345 1,500, 8 north of XZY IFR to ZYX."
After radar established.
"N12345 radar contact as reported, can you maintain VMC until reaching 2,300?"
"Negative N12345."
"Roger N12345 can you maintain your own obstruction and terrain clearance until reaching 2,300?"
"Affirmative N12345."
"Roger, N12345 is cleared to ZYX..."

They won't issue you any specific course instructions below the MVA that would prevent you from navigating on your own.
 
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Something I was taught early on by one of my better CFI's:

"Just talk to ATC"

They're people. They know you might not have all the phraseology down. Just explain to them what you need and you will be amazed at how helpful they are.
 
azure said:
It looks like the MIA around 0B5 can't be lower than 3500 or 4000, so you probably wouldn't run into it often. Farther north, particularly around LEB or in VT, the MIAs are over 5000 - around MVL I think more like 6000. They can hear you much lower in many places (luckily) - on the ground at MPV in fact. But picking up a clearance airborne from around MPV can be a hassle.
Click to expand...
Once they could hear me it was a non issue though I was probably around 2-3k. We also got to do the "n6465p cleared direct to KASH, unable we're /a need direct mht then KASH, OK cleared as requested" dance even though I file as /a

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Don't know what it's like in quieter areas of the country, but here in the New York metro area, I call Tracon on my cell phone, get my routing, take my time entering all the info and frequencies, and let them know I'll be departing VFR (conditions permitting of course), and that I'll call them up in the air and activate my IFR clearance. I can't imagine the busy controllers having the time to read an entire clearance and hear readback. Also easy for them because they don't have to issue me a release time.
 
airheadpenguin said:
Once they could hear me it was a non issue though I was probably around 2-3k. We also got to do the "n6465p cleared direct to KASH, unable we're /a need direct mht then KASH, OK cleared as requested" dance even though I file as /a

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Click to expand...
Yeah that's a whole other issue. I assume they have your equipment suffix but it's pretty clear they don't look at it before issuing clearances. Seems they assume everyone is /G unless you verbally tell them otherwise.

BTW I'm down at KASH occasionally. Usually use Infinity.
 
You don't even need a plan on file if ATC is willing. I've been getting FF and asked if I could get an IFR clearance at 6000 and it's almost always been "Cleared direct CJR, maintain 6000." Occasionally the busy or disinclined controller will make you go to flight service to file and then you wait 20 minutes or so and ask for your clearance.

Picking up a filed clearance in the air with ATC really isn't much different than picking it up on the ground.

The perhaps oddest one was when I was heading to Oshkosh a few years ago. I'm receiving FF from Milwaukee approach and just NW of the class C and the scattered layer we're on top of is closing up.

27K: "It looks like Oshkosh may be IFR by the time we get there, can I get a clearance from you or do I need to go to flight service?"
MKE: "<sigh>" (yes there was an audible sigh over the radio, like it's starting already. "Are you rated and equipped?"
27K: "Affirmative."
MKE: "Cleared direct Oshkosh, expect the VOR 9 approach."
27K: "How about the RNAV 9?"
MKE" "OK, expect the RNAV 9 approach."

It was kind of neat breaking out over the "show." The only other time I've been flying there in instrument conditions was in one of the trimotors.
 
AggieMike88 said:
So something like:
AM88: "Grey Departure, November-five-five-whiskey-bravo"
ATC: "N55WB go ahead"
AM88: "55WB is 1.5 miles northeast of Temple airport, climbing through 1800 feet, I'd like to pick up my IFR flight plan and clearance to Dallas Executive."
ATC: "55WB, standby for clearance and beacon code."

Should be that simple, maybe even simpler. If the controller is aware of the proposed departures in his area and has noticed that this 55WB dude might be calling sometime in the near future you might get "55WB, squawk #### I have your clearance.
​
Click to expand...
 
Brad Z said:
I'm giving you a hard time since Ron did your Instrument Training, right?

Seriously though, if you have the means, go over to the red board and check out the thread on picking up clearances in the air. There's some good information. The gist of it is that 1) it's easier than getting a clearance with a void time from a non-towered field, 2) in some places controllers prefer it, some places they hate it, 3)it's not always easy to do out in the boonies or in really busy airspace, and 4) you better make darn sure you can remain VFR if you're going to do it that way.
Click to expand...

What and where is the redboard?
 
If its VFR, it shouldnt be a problem. The problem is, you might not be able to get it right away. If its low IMC, that can be a problem and you shouldnt do it. Better to open it on the ground. With Temple, you have a class D. Id think you would want to use their clearance delivery. Why do you want to open in the air. Its kind of a hit or miss thing. If its just VFR, skip it and fly VFR, why not? You want the experience of IFR? Then use the clearance delivery. Airlines almost always have a requirement they open on the ground. Some ATC get grouch when planes try and open in the air, some dont.

But if you just want the experience of opening in the air, go ahead and try it. See what happens. No one on here really knows. ATC is always throwing us small planes curve balls. Not on purpose. But they happen regardless. If ATC cooperates and opens it smoothly, more power to you. If they get grumpy and want you to do somehting weird, well, welcome to small plane IFR open in the air problems. They sometimes happen. What ever happens, keep your cool, dont get mad on frequency and keep on talking in an enthusiastic, friendly way. Thats what works best!
 
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Call atc with your location and ask to activate your IFR flight plan,be ready to copy it down and repeat it back. Usually no big deal.
 
Velocity173 said:
You can get a clearance below the MVA while IMC. It's laid out in the .65 and it isn't anything new.

If by the book, you're whole transaction should have gone something like this:

"XYZ approach N12345 1,500, 8 north of XZY IFR to ZYX."
After radar established.
"N12345 radar contact as reported, can you maintain VMC until reaching 2,300?"
"Negative N12345."
"Roger N12345 can you maintain your own obstruction and terrain clearance until reaching 2,300?"
"Affirmative N12345."
"Roger, N12345 is cleared to ZYX..."

They won't issue you any specific course instructions below the MVA that would prevent you from navigating on your own.
Click to expand...

Dude, use some other word than transaction, sounds to much like you're buying a clearance and there is to much evil talk on the streets already about that.
 
AggieMike88 said:
A recent VFR flight from Temple, TX (KTPL) to Dallas Executive (KRBD) had me thinking ahead to doing it under IFR rules.

Looking for tips to obtain my IFR clearance while in flight.

Say I file a IFR flight plan from KTPL to KRBD and get the acknowledgement it's in the system. It's a VFR day, so I take off and turn northward to KRBD.

With VFR FF, I'm familiar with calling up Gray Approach, asking FF and feeding them the aircraft type and cruise altitude. I get the squawk, hear "Radar Contact", and we continue on our merry way.


What I'd like to know is the phrasing to advise the controller that I have a IFR plan on file, so he can find it and provide me my IFR clearance.
Click to expand...

"You have a strip on me." OK, so they don't use strips anymore. Still gets the message across.

Bob Gardner
 
Or even, "Looking for an IFR to xxx". I think they typically look for it first before asking you whether you've filed or are looking for a pop-up. At least, the times they've asked me, it's been because the flight plan has disappeared from the system for whatever reason.
 
luvflyin said:
Dude, use some other word than transaction, sounds to much like you're buying a clearance and there is to much evil talk on the streets already about that.
Click to expand...

Exchange?
 
bobmrg said:
"You have a strip on me." OK, so they don't use strips anymore. Still gets the message across.

Bob Gardner
Click to expand...

Approach / tower still uses paper strips. I believe centers are full digital though.
 
Velocity173 said:
Approach / tower still uses paper strips. I believe centers are full digital though.
Click to expand...

Depends on the facility. It's hard for Dulles tower to throw the strips hard enough to get to PCT at Vint Hill.
 
Knowing me, I'll take what Bob suggested and flub it up by saying "Podunk departure, 55WB just departed BFE, looking to pickup my Clearance, you have my IFR stripper."

Glitter, brass pole, and all
 
narchee said:
Something I was taught early on by one of my better CFI's:

"Just talk to ATC"

They're people. They know you might not have all the phraseology down. Just explain to them what you need and you will be amazed at how helpful they are.
Click to expand...

Started flying in the USN 50 years ago, followed by a 35 year airline career....

This piece of advice has it square on////:yes:
 
AggieMike88 said:
Knowing me, I'll take what Bob suggested and flub it up by saying "Podunk departure, 55WB just departed BFE, looking to pickup my Clearance, you have my IFR stripper."

Glitter, brass pole, and all
Click to expand...

That's a good one (per at the end of strip aside, that's a good one to.)

Here's another, "55WB (position and altitude) on file to (wherever) requesting clearance"
 
Velocity173 said:
"XYZ approach N12345 1,500, 8 north of XZY IFR to ZYX."
After radar established.
"N12345 radar contact as reported, can you maintain VMC until reaching 2,300?"
"Negative N12345."
"Roger N12345 can you maintain your own obstruction and terrain clearance until reaching 2,300?"
"Affirmative N12345."
"Roger, N12345 is cleared to ZYX..."

They won't issue you any specific course instructions below the MVA that would prevent you from navigating on your own.
Click to expand...
This is exactly what happened, except that the very first time I'd gotten this question from ATC (in 40+ years of flying IFR), I decided to take the safest way out (was with a student at the time) and land to get the clearance.
I had gotten clearances before at this same airport at lower than (what I now know is) MVA, so this new (to me anyway) procedure was a surprise. This airport only recently got an IFR approach, so maybe the first few times getting clearances the controllers weren't used to issuing the request (??). The whole thing makes sense, just never experienced it before.
Subsequently we have done the same thing and climbed on our own to MVA and gone on our merry way. The learning never stops!
 
DGlaeser said:
This is exactly what happened, except that the very first time I'd gotten this question from ATC (in 40+ years of flying IFR), I decided to take the safest way out (was with a student at the time) and land to get the clearance.
I had gotten clearances before at this same airport at lower than (what I now know is) MVA, so this new (to me anyway) procedure was a surprise. This airport only recently got an IFR approach, so maybe the first few times getting clearances the controllers weren't used to issuing the request (??). The whole thing makes sense, just never experienced it before.
Subsequently we have done the same thing and climbed on our own to MVA and gone on our merry way. The learning never stops!
Click to expand...
Hmmm... was this at 57D?
 
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