Observations About Aircraft Sellers (Year 2014)

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JoseCuervo

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JoseCuervo
Been looking for an airplane for at least 7 months, along with about a bazillion other things that occupy my attention / time. But, I have looked enough that I feel like I can offer some observations to Sellers to help them turn that chunk of aluminum into cash.


Online? Welcome to 2014!!!
In 2014, there are two ways to sell a plane. The first way is local, and you just need to stick a For Sale sign on the back window, maybe one of them prop banners, and, if you want to go all out on your marketing expense, write a note on the bulletin board inside the FBO next to the coffee machine.

Problem is, I don't drink coffee, and, more than likely, I ain't gonna be anywhere near your local ramp or bulletin board, so, we are going to have a hard time ever finding each other. Unfortunately, you just lost access to me and my checking account.

Now, in 2014, thanks to Al Gore, you can also list your plane on the Internet. Yep, then, from the comfort of my home/office, I can find your plane!!!! Congrats, we can now find each other. Your plane will sell quickly thanks to Trade-A-Plane, Barnstormers, Controller, ASO, Craigslist, and about a dozen other places you can list planes. Yep, that is now a bit of a problem, as you asking me to monitor a half dozen websites to find your plane. You ain't making this easy on me.

But, as I am motivated, and I know how to use SEARCH functions, I have found your listing on HunksOfAluminum.com. We are now in business, right?


Your Listing: Got my attention!!
I just sorted by the make and model I want. Odd, but when I look at PRICE, 1/4 of them say "Inquire". Seriously, you won't tell me how much you want for the specific item you are selling? If you think the price is too high, why are you listing it? Or, describe the plane in such a way that your "too high" price is actually fair. Do you really think I will spend my time "Inquire"ing when the other 3/4 of the listed planes will share that information with me?


Pictures in Your Listing!!
This should be a thread on its own. But, I don't think any of these sites charge you to upload pictures, so why won't you show me the plane? If you are embarrassed how it looks, do you somehow think I will buy it without seeing it? If you don't post pictures, it is because you have something to hide, and I am moving on.

Now, if you can't post pictures, techno-phobe or something, can you get your grandkid to do it? (And, have you actually tried? Almost all these websites make it easy. Hell, I don't even care if they are upside down, just post the damn pictures.) How did you make the decision to list it on the internet if you are unable to click an "Upload Pics" button on a simple website?

You are selling a $20k, $40k, $80k, $120k asset, wouldn't it be worth it for you to go down to BestBuy and by a cheap tablet for $199 and have the kid in the blue shirt set up your email and teach you in 20 minutes how to take photos, save them, upload them, and email them? You will spend $25 on tie downs and a $100 per month on insurance, plus $150 in per month annual expenses, but you won't spend $200 to sell your airplane?

Description: " TT 2993, IFR, 4 PLACE INTERCOM, DME, GS, GARMIN 300, KX155"

First of all, why are you YELLING at me?

Second, you are trying to sell a $50k asset and use less than 80 characters to describe it? What do you think my first questions are going to be? Where do I mail the check? or, do you think I will ask "How much time is on the engine?" "Is it in annual?" and about a 100 other things.

As of Feb 25, 2014, Trade-A-PLane has 2320 Single Engine PIston aircraft listed, why should I buy yours?


(My next advice/rant will be on what happens when I contact you, assuming I can get in contact with you.)
 
Your observations are pretty good. Have found that if there is a broker involved most of the info you need is contained in the add. I never minded searching the internet to find a plane. Also can't pass a controller mag without checking it out.
 
Pilots are fat, stupid, old people. Now if you want things packaged pretty and under shiny lights I'd suggest Target. You are shopping for a 4 decade old used item being sold by the people in my first sentence. What do you expect?
 
Let's Talk:

OK, I found your plane, and I am going to contact you. And, yes, I see you don't want scammers, low-ballers, and tire kickers. Great, I am not any of them but you just talked to me like you might be a grouchy person who can't sort thru people quickly. Just an observation, but tossing it out there for you.


Want me to Call you, great, you listed a phone number. Now, we have an issue, I need to find 30 minutes in my day to call you, hopefully matching a period of time when you have 30 minutes. It might happen. It might not. Interestingly enough, everybody else selling similar planes has an email address they are willing to share, and I can fire off quick messages to them when I have a minute, don't need to find time for a phone call.

Here is a suggestion, how about give me the option of phone call or email, since I am trying to spend my money, let's see if we can make this simple on me, like the other 2000 sellers are doing.

Oh, you want me to email you? Great, look for my email soon.... Oh? What is that? You don't check your email very often? WTF? Seriously, you are trying to sell something and you won't check twice a day to see if you got email? Are you really going to think that checking it every 3-4 days is going to be productive to have a discussion on selling your plane?

I'm willing to use phone, email, text, skype, Facetime, or any other platform that makes it simple. But, you have to be able to use them. Priding yourself on having a SPAM filter that junks my email, not answering phone calls from out of state area codes, not setting up the voicemail box on your phone, and not having text messaging on your phone is not helping the process.
 
the "inquire" price aggravates me, too. If the price scares me away, talking to you on the phone isn't going to make extra $$$ show up in the bank account.
 
rbridges said:
the "inquire" price aggravates me, too. If the price scares me away, talking to you on the phone isn't going to make extra $$$ show up in the bank account.
Click to expand...

When shopping cars, no price and/or no miles = no calls. Same with planes, if you can't bother to give me price/times, it isn't worth my dime.
 
Yeah, I hear you Mr Cuervo. I too am amazed at how hard people work to NOT sell something. Really, did you SCAN that Polaroid of your radio stack? Reminds me of my ex-wife's Real Estate business. I never let her do it - but I was amazed at the people trying to sell $750K homes with pictures that looked like they were taken with 110 Instamatic (dating myself)
 
And how about... if you're going to sell something, you might want to check to make sure you SPELLED ITS NAME RIGHT and/or got the correct model number. Helps a lot when someone is searching for, say, a Champ, that you haven't advertised yours as Shemp.

On the other hand, I've learned to really hunt for misspellings and incorrect model numbers... simply because sometimes the seller isn't getting any responses to his ad (imagine that!) and I can pick it up cheap.
 
The 'serious inquiries only' or 'no tire kickers' kills me.

Like there are a bunch of people out there who are not serious and they just call ads on the internet and then show up and kick your tire on your plane and then run away?

Are there people out there with an airplane tire fetish? ;)
 
I got a question:

Actually, I got a 100 questions, so how do you want to do this? Do you want me to ask my 100 questions, extracting answers from you one at a time, or, do you just want to share with me (and EVERY other potential buyer) all the information I will need to make a decision to pursue or pass.

Can you send me pictures?
Yes, I saw the picture online, from 40 feet, the left side of the plane looks.....well, looks like...... looks like a plane. And, yep, the picture of the back seat looks like a back seat. And, the control panel defintely has a a lot of round clock-looking things and some rectangle things with knobs in the center of the console. See, as I told you above, I got some questions, and, likely the same questions every other buyer will have.

How about taking 40 pictures of the plane out at the airport, putting them in a folder, and then emailing me 5 pictures per message and send me 8 emails that show me the plane? I would really like to see the hangar rash on the elevator. I would love to see where it was stop-drilled on the ailerons, I would love to see the plastic fairings that have duct tape. How about that hole in the carpet where your heels rest? It is a 30-40-50 year old airplane, it won't look perfect, and I am ok with that, but, I want to know what is wrong, just like every other buyer, and I will decide if it still meets my needs.


So, you can either be prepared and have your pictures all ready to email, or, you can tell me that next time you get to the airport, and it is sunny, and the snow lets you open the hangar, and you can get somebody to move their Cub, you will pull it out of the hangar and take some more pictures that I would like to see.
 
Bill Jennings said:
When shopping cars, no price and/or no miles = no calls. Same with planes, if you can't bother to give me price/times, it isn't worth my dime.
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My plane purchasing experience was wonderful. I just asked around for information about various types from people I respected, and pretty soon an owner approached me with an offer . . .

Right now I am househunting. I won't deal with realtors who advertise 15 houses in the weekly rag, with nary a price. I actually listed the realtor's names, and counted the number of homes advertised and the number with prices. Then I called the one with the highest ratio, and explained why I chose them.

No price in the ad means you don't want to sell. Why would I want to look at your car, plane, house or whatever if I don't know that I can buy it if I like it? And no, I'm not going to individual websites to look up each one, I just scratch them off my list and look at other one whose ads make sense. There are dozens advertised each day WITH prices . . . . .
 
Ya got to look at plane shopping like antique shopping, go to a store and pay top dollar for OK stuff or find your own stuff out in the world. Ask your CFI, ask the line guys, ask the cute girl at the FBO counter, she might not know dink about details but she might know a lot about who needs to move an airplane.
 
Most people are abysmally, horribly, pathetically stupid about sales. Simple things, like clean the object being sold, take good photos, give a good description etc... just elude some people. It isn't rocket surgery, but some just don't get it. But talk to them and there's no way they could be doing anything wrong. It's their airplane dagnabbit!
 
I love the ads that show 3 years of fingerprints on the 430 or whatever glass exists in the plane. If they can't take some glass cleaner to it, what else are they neglecting? Also, a 430 isn't a touch screen - what the hell were you doing touching the screen?
 
Mom sold real estate for years. Each time she met with a new seller the first thing she did was give them a list of items to deal with before she would show it:

1. repaint your teenager's black walls to beige
2. clean the oven
3. clean the garage
4. remove all the knick-knacks that you so dearly love from all the shelves and pack them away. No one else is interested in your widgets. You're going to move anyway, so get started on packing now.
5. clean the bathrooms! Get professional cleaners if needed. That moldy caulk in the tile is a #1 turnoff.
6. buy new towels and such for display in the bathrooms. you can take them with you when you move.
7. wash the windows. frequently if you have a dog.
8. Got cat or dog? Board them on the weekends you have open houses. Don't let anyone see the litter boxes or dog toys. Or smell them.
9. Got a yard? Clean it up, mow, trim landscape. Kids bikes are ok, a grill if it's presentable.
10. Use this as an excuse to start clearing out, packing, donating.

On the buyer's side - she'd never show the buyer more than 3 in one day. Anything else was overkill & exhausting. Besides, if she didn't understand what the buyer wanted, she wasn't doing her job.

See the parallels to selling an airplane? My favorite is #8. Go find that dead sandwich that's been stinking up the plane for weeks and get rid of it!
 
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nddons said:
Also, a 430 isn't a touch screen - what the hell were you doing touching the screen?
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Yeah none of the glass in the t-6 is touch screen yet finger prints galore. Though in training I'll give them the benefit of the doubt that they are pointing out to the instructor or verifying info. But man the glass turn to crap in a hurry in the sim no doubt.

No reason why selling a plane should have prints on the glass clean it for crying out loud. My pet peeve is no price and no pictures. I don't even waste my time on them. I did one time email requesting pics on a plane that posted none. What a mistake that was...I got bombarded with spam email and it filled my box up with gibberish. Never again.
 
I always like the portable GPS on the yokes that block part of the panel and then the ad states that the portable is NOT included, then take the stupid thing off before you take the picture!!:mad2:

steingar said:
Most people are abysmally, horribly, pathetically stupid about sales. Simple things, like clean the object being sold, take good photos, give a good description etc... just elude some people. It isn't rocket surgery, but some just don't get it. But talk to them and there's no way they could be doing anything wrong. It's their airplane dagnabbit!
Click to expand...
 
This is a true story, Mr. Seller, I hope you read this:
I finally get you on the phone (NO EMAIL, NO FAXES) after 15 attempts.
So you want to tell me all about your plane, on the phone, and I have to take dictation at 200 words a minute. Can't you just send me all the info?
Right, NO EMAIL, NO FAXES.
Fine, what is the "N" number and where is the plane?
You won't tell me, because you want to be there when I look at it?
Did I mention that the asking price is $5.000.00 more than a similar plane that just won a bunch of awards at Oshkosh?

OK I'm available any day. And you aren't available any day. Not for 6 weeks.
Fine. I'll see you on Wednesday, 6 weeks from now. You will call me the day before and tell me where the aircraft is located?
Fine.
Six weeks later, the call comes in. He can't make it. Can we postpone another 2 weeks?

(OK. I decided to cheat. It's a relatively rare old bird so I write a piece of software and I find every example in a three state area around your area code. GOTCHA!)
I fly over to the airfield, and this is what I find:
The tires are flat, the interior is filled with bags of garbage. Not airplane garbage, household garbage. The exterior of the plane looks like it has leprosy, and mange, and cooties. The paint is curled and sticking up like quills. The engine is high time, it's out of annual, and there are things living in it. Unidentifiable things.
And you're ****ed because I went over and looked at it without you? Wait until you see what happens next. I'm going to fly into every airfield in a 200 mile radius and put little post it notes on every poster you put up describing this pig so no one else wastes a single minute of their life pursuing this.
 
Logbooks: Could I see them?

Yeah, one of the things I am going to want to see is the history of the plane. And what better way to learn it than seeing the logbooks.

Oh? What? You don't have copies of them you can send them to me? Were the other Buyers going to be ok with not seeing the logs? Or, were you going to have to share them with all the interested parties? I would much preferred reviewing them myself, before I burden a mechanic in a Pre-Buy to go thru the documentation. And, I can learn a lot. Were the last 200 hours put on in 1994 or in 2013?

And, if your last annual says "I certify the aircraft has been inspected in accordance with an annual inspection and was determined to be in airworthy condition". we are going to need even more pages of the logs. Were the AD's in compliance? Which ones? All of them? Which ones are those?

Did you check the engine? How come you didn't copy the engine log? Since you didn't give me the compressions, should I assume they were poor? What about the prop?

See the pattern here? Partial information just leads to more questions on my part. I know I am taking up a lot of YOUR time, and, spending a lot of MY time. Would it be best if I just moved on to the next plane?

Again, not showing them makes me think there is something wrong with your plane. And, I would love to see some expensive annuals in the past, ones that let me know things were fixed. If they are all just pencil whipped, I am going to find out.
 
ClimbnSink said:
Pilots are fat, stupid, old people. Now if you want things packaged pretty and under shiny lights I'd suggest Target. You are shopping for a 4 decade old used item being sold by the people in my first sentence. What do you expect?
Click to expand...

Shhhhhhh! :mad: I've made a lot of money buying orphans, polishing them up and flying them a few months, then putting them on a nice web site with pictures and videos.

How do you think I have been able to fly to all 50 states! :D
 
DaleB said:
And how about... if you're going to sell something, you might want to check to make sure you SPELLED ITS NAME RIGHT and/or got the correct model number. Helps a lot when someone is searching for, say, a Champ, that you haven't advertised yours as Shemp.
Click to expand...

The flip-side to this is that a buyer can occasionally get a really, really good deal on things that have typoed in the listing because no one else is looking at it.
 
Seller's aint wal-mart. They got no share holders answer to, no reputation to protect. Some don't give a **** if they sell it or not. Might even prefer not to.

I find it comical that anyone has much of an expectation from a seller of anything. Whaddaya want? A CSR in a blue smock? :)
 
rwellner98 said:
The flip-side to this is that a buyer can occasionally get a really, really good deal on things that have typoed in the listing because no one else is looking at it.
Click to expand...
Precisely.

Shhhhhhhhhh.

:)
 
This is a good potentially epic thread...please continue about how true market conditions don't apply to THEIR plane because it is sooo special...
 
mnewb1 said:
This is a good potentially epic thread...please continue about how true market conditions don't apply to THEIR plane because it is sooo special...
Click to expand...

I know, the engine is past TBO, but 'it runs strong' and my mechanic* said it will go another 1000 hrs easy.



*who pencil-whipped the last 3 annuals
 
weilke said:
I know, the engine is past TBO, but 'it runs strong' and my mechanic* said it will go another 1000 hrs easy.



*who pencil-whipped the last 3 annuals
Click to expand...

I had one guy explain to me how great his plane was because of how little maintenance it needed. Log books for as far back as I could remember were.

"This airplane inspected in accordance with an Annual Inspection On _____"

Guy says. "It's a good one, annuals have never been over $150". I saw the log book and believed him. This was a Bonanza. My Mechanic said "Expect a $15,000 annual"
 
Takeaway is airplane sellers and buyers are equally delusional.
 
bartmc said:
Seller's aint wal-mart. They got no share holders answer to, no reputation to protect. Some don't give a **** if they sell it or not. Might even prefer not to.



I find it comical that anyone has much of an expectation from a seller of anything. Whaddaya want? A CSR in a blue smock? :)
Click to expand...

This. I mean really? OP has been looking for a 182, of which there are 217 listed currently on Controller.

You don't have to deal with crappy sellers. If anything, they are helping you narrow the field. Rather than bitching about them, you should actually thank them for making your search easier.

It is a bit different when you are looking for something less common where there might only be one or two examples for sale at any given time. But that just isn't the case in the 182 market.
 
Jose,

Love the postings on this subject. So darn true. You find a bird with the A/P you want, and the rest is crap. You find a nice bird, no A/P or a crap one. Or you finally find one with everything you want, and the thing hasn't flown for a while and has been tied down outside in the midwest climate, or, the owner thinks he can get the price that he paid for it and then some. I have gone through a year of frustration and am thinking I am doomed to rent forever.....(unless I win the lottery).
 
weilke said:
I know, the engine is past TBO, but 'it runs strong' and my mechanic* said it will go another 1000 hrs easy.



*who pencil-whipped the last 3 annuals
Click to expand...

No body, the mechanic is allowed to shmooz the owner as any one.
 
asgcpa said:
Jose,

Love the postings on this subject. So darn true. You find a bird with the A/P you want, and the rest is crap. You find a nice bird, no A/P or a crap one. Or you finally find one with everything you want, and the thing hasn't flown for a while and has been tied down outside in the midwest climate, or, the owner thinks he can get the price that he paid for it and then some. I have gone through a year of frustration and am thinking I am doomed to rent forever.....(unless I win the lottery).
Click to expand...
That's probably true, when you want the seller to give you a new aircraft.

Except the possibility that you may have to pay for what you want.
 
And I guess he's a psychic if he knows that I'm going to make fun of it in two weeks! :)









.
 
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Fearless Tower said:
This. I mean really? OP has been looking for a 182, of which there are 217 listed currently on Controller.

You don't have to deal with crappy sellers. If anything, they are helping you narrow the field. Rather than bitching about them, you should actually thank them for making your search easier.

It is a bit different when you are looking for something less common where there might only be one or two examples for sale at any given time. But that just isn't the case in the 182 market.
Click to expand...


Actually have been looking at C-180's and Maules, but thanks for letting me know how easy it should be.

And, if you can show me the SORT function on TradeAPlane or Controller that allows you to sort by Seller Communication Skills, I will be appreciative.
 
asgcpa said:
Jose,

Love the postings on this subject. So darn true. You find a bird with the A/P you want, and the rest is crap. You find a nice bird, no A/P or a crap one. Or you finally find one with everything you want, and the thing hasn't flown for a while and has been tied down outside in the midwest climate, or, the owner thinks he can get the price that he paid for it and then some. I have gone through a year of frustration and am thinking I am doomed to rent forever.....(unless I win the lottery).
Click to expand...


You know what is the funny part? That most of these conversations never get to the point where I discuss price. For all I know, the asking price may be a fair price, and if we can verify that with the logs and the pictures, then a pre-buy, I will happily pay full price. If it turns out that the price is too high on a plane I stillw want, then I would likely make an offer.

Most of these Sellers seem to lose my attention due to lack of responses to requests for information. Unfortunately, I have other things to do in life, so I don't send a second request for information.
 
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