Observations About Aircraft Sellers (Year 2014)

Irish_Armada said:
Honest question: why hasn't your plane sold yet? I've salivated over the pics on numerous occasions but I'm not in the market for a twin (nor rated to fly one). Seems like you've done everything the OP has semi-defined as constituting a proper sales effort but with no luck...yet. :confused:
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His particular model of 310 is not in high demand you could say.
 
docmirror said:
I sold my Bo in about a week with a fair but not great advertising. It was very clean. I was avail almost anytime. I never gave out the N number, I never gave out the logs, but they were avail for insp when you come to my hangar(a real buyer comes to the plane). I made a little money on the deal after fixing a few small details that were important. (the OP missed a great plane)
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I don't know. I disagree. Found a Deb on my home field. Looked great until I saw the logs....(right Henning?) I am a real buyer and have seen 2 planes but both weren't as advertised.

Had I gone a distance to see the plane and then the logs....I would have been ****ed about the waste of time and money. I think letting a prospective see a PDF of the logs up front is not unreasonable.
 
Tom-D said:
That's probably true, when you want the seller to give you a new aircraft.

Except the possibility that you may have to pay for what you want.
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I don't mind paying a fair price for a plane. It just has to have certain things. One of which is a decent autopilot. My issue is while I could by a plane by my lonesome, I think it's better for my situation to enter into a small partnership.
 
56 years worth of logs, in 6 different logbooks. Yeah, because the fact they gapped the plugs back in '63 is real relevant. GTFO with this "I want the entire logbooks scanned as a pdf" crap.
 
Irish_Armada said:
Honest question: why hasn't your plane sold yet? I've salivated over the pics on numerous occasions but I'm not in the market for a twin (nor rated to fly one). Seems like you've done everything the OP has semi-defined as constituting a proper sales effort but with no luck...yet. :confused:
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I'm not really marketing it, and people want cheap with everything on it. I'd rather keep it than give it away.
 
asgcpa said:
I don't know. I disagree. Found a Deb on my home field. Looked great until I saw the logs....(right Henning?) I am a real buyer and have seen 2 planes but both weren't as advertised.

Had I gone a distance to see the plane and then the logs....I would have been ****ed about the waste of time and money. I think letting a prospective see a PDF of the logs up front is not unreasonable.
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I didn't have to see the logs on that one to walk away.
 
EdFred said:
56 years worth of logs, in 6 different logbooks. Yeah, because the fact they gapped the plugs back in '63 is real relevant. GTFO with this "I want the entire logbooks scanned as a pdf" crap.
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Yep, most of the log books are irrelevant.
 
EdFred said:
56 years worth of logs, in 6 different logbooks. Yeah, because the fact they gapped the plugs back in '63 is real relevant. GTFO with this "I want the entire logbooks scanned as a pdf" crap.
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So you dont really want to sell your plane then.
 
weilke said:
So you dont really want to sell your plane then.
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I'm not sure that is what Ed is saying. It isn't so much that complete logbooks aren't important for a sale, it is the idea that for an airplane to sell, every page of every logbook must be scanned and posted for the prospective buyer to see. Scanned logbooks (if they are well maintained) can certainly help sell a plane, but by no means a critical factor to most buyers.
 
weilke said:
So you dont really want to sell your plane then.
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You want a copy of the AD compliance report my A&P does each annual, and the entry for some damage repair, fine. But why the **** does the gapping of spark plugs matter 50 years ago? Those spark plugs aren't even in the plane anymore. go kick some more tires and ***** and moan that you can't have my plane at 15% of listed price.
 
Want to sell your aircraft? ya gotta deal with the public, you'll never please them all.
When you think about how stupid the average buyer is, believe that half of them are dumber than that.
 
Tom-D said:
Want to sell your aircraft? ya gotta deal with the public, you'll never please them all.
When you think about how stupid the average buyer is, believe that half of them are dumber than that.
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Problem is that there are both stoopid buyers AND stoopid sellers. Don't forget, if half the buyers are stoopid, then by general nature, that means that half the sellers (who were once buyers) are stoopid too!
 
Fearless Tower said:
Problem is that there are both stoopid buyers AND stoopid sellers. Don't forget, if half the buyers are stoopid, then by general nature, that means that half the sellers (who were once buyers) are stoopid too!
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true, that is why it is important to know who the buyer is as well as the seller.
 
asgcpa said:
I don't know. I disagree. Found a Deb on my home field. Looked great until I saw the logs....(right Henning?) I am a real buyer and have seen 2 planes but both weren't as advertised.

Had I gone a distance to see the plane and then the logs....I would have been ****ed about the waste of time and money. I think letting a prospective see a PDF of the logs up front is not unreasonable.
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Hey - look at the later post I made. I went all over the country looking so I know what you're talking about. If there's something bad in the logs a buyer will find it. But I'm just not going to share my logs online. That's my decision and I'll pay the loss of a sale for it. If I tell them or they ask about a specific thing in the logs, I'll tell them, but no way am I sending out the logs for my plane.
 
Fearless Tower said:
I'm not sure that is what Ed is saying. It isn't so much that complete logbooks aren't important for a sale, it is the idea that for an airplane to sell, every page of every logbook must be scanned and posted for the prospective buyer to see. Scanned logbooks (if they are well maintained) can certainly help sell a plane, but by no means a critical factor to most buyers.
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I think the important stuff should be available. If it looks like a serious buyer, they can look at the minutia in person. My plane is a '65, so there is quite a bit of paperwork that has accumulated over the past 5 decades. No way i could scan every sheet of paper, but I could do important stuff in the logs.
 
EdFred said:
Nah, I replaced them at annual with new ones. :)
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Irediums too, I'll bet :)

I once told a buyer that the plugs were Irediums, he asked what that was?
 
EdFred said:
You want a copy of the AD compliance report my A&P does each annual, and the entry for some damage repair, fine. But why the **** does the gapping of spark plugs matter 50 years ago? Those spark plugs aren't even in the plane anymore. go kick some more tires and ***** and moan that you can't have my plane at 15% of listed price.
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Maybe you didn't consider that entry from 1964 'replaced tailplane assembly with parts ####### using manufacturers drawings' to be important but a buyer who spends good money to travel to your out of the way location does.

If you dont want to invest 2hrs with an i-phone to make a pdf of the logs it does suggest that you are not that interested in selling.
 
weilke said:
Maybe you didn't consider that entry from 1964 'replaced tailplane assembly with parts ####### using manufacturers drawings' to be important but a buyer who spends good money to travel to your out of the way location does.

If you dont want to invest 2hrs with an i-phone to make a pdf of the logs it does suggest that you are not that interested in selling.
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If there was something like that in there, sure. But anything like that is in the AD compliance report. My logs are all small crap. I'm not wasting my time to show you oil changes that happened prior to the last engine overhaul.

Also don't keep me on the phone for an hour and a half and then ask if there's an autopilot, when #1, it's not listed - and I listed everything, and #2 it's your ****ing primary consideration when buying a mother****ing plane.

You're wasting my time.
 
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There are two phases to buying a plane.
First: finding the one you like. Most important does it have the right equipment and is it the right color? You don't need to see the price and you don't need to see the logs, a couple of pictures would be nice maybe one of the outside and one of the inside, but if you don't have any, an equipment list will be fine.

Second: Make an offer. It doesn't matter what the buyer wants, the plane only sells when the seller agrees to sell it. Pre-purchase inspection, now you are getting into serious business. You need a professional that knows what he is doing. Take the findings and negotiate. You either convince the seller the price needs adjustment or he convinces you that it doesn't.
You buy it or you walk away.
 
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Cruiser said:
There are two phases to buying a plane.
First: finding the one you like. Most important does it have the right equipment and is it the right color? I don't need to see the logs, a couple of pictures would be nice maybe one of the outside and one of the inside, but if you don't have any, an equipment list will be fine.

Second: Make an offer. It doesn't matter what the buyer wants, the plane only sells when the seller agrees to sell it. Pre-purchase inspection, now you are getting into serious business. You need a professional that knows what he is doing. Take the findings and negotiate. You either convince the seller the price needs adjustment or you walk away.
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Alternate, optional second: Decide that you're not going to find something for sale that meets your needs at a price you're willing to pay; make the decision to build instead.
 
DaleB said:
Alternate, optional second: Decide that you're not going to find something for sale that meets your needs at a price you're willing to pay; make the decision to build instead.
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in my situation, I'd be too old to pass a medical by the time I finished building it. :lol:
 
EdFred said:
Also don't keep me on the phone for an hour and a half and then ask if there's an autopilot, when #1, it's not listed - and I listed everything, and #2 it's your ****ing primary consideration when buying a mother****ing plane.
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This has got to be one of my favorite posts in a long time. That ****s funny, I dont care who you are.:rofl:
 
EdFred said:
Also don't keep me on the phone for an hour and a half and then ask if there's an autopilot, when #1, it's not listed - and I listed everything, and #2 it's your ****ing primary consideration when buying a mother****ing plane.
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Autopilot is a primary consideration with only few options to retrofit.

If you couldn't be bothered to scan in the logs, how do I know you paid attention when you cobbled your ad together.
 
weilke said:
If you couldn't be bothered to scan in the logs, how do I know you paid attention when you cobbled your ad together.
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Seriously dude, you're just mad. I consider it a nice service if the seller managed to scan the logs, but it's not 2 hours with iPhone. I only expect brokers do it, since it's their effin job. Not a regular seller.

BTW, I bought my airplane without even looking at the logs. Not that it should be a standard procedure for anyone, in fact I recommend against it in general. But sheesh. It's just a little demerit, not a deal breaker.
 
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weilke said:
Maybe you didn't consider that entry from 1964 'replaced tailplane assembly with parts ####### using manufacturers drawings' to be important but a buyer who spends good money to travel to your out of the way location does.

If you dont want to invest 2hrs with an i-phone to make a pdf of the logs it does suggest that you are not that interested in selling.
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That's really not important, nor does it tell you anything important. What is important is WHY it was replaced, that tells you where to look for other potential issues more closely or if it's a non issue.
 
Henning said:
That's really not important, nor does it tell you anything important. What is important is WHY it was replaced, that tells you where to look for other potential issues more closely or if it's a non issue.
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How about 'hooked a phone wire while chasing starlings out of a safflower field'.

Plane listed as NKDH fwiw.
 
zaitcev said:
Seriously dude, you're just mad. I consider it a nice service if the seller managed to scan the logs, but it's not 2 hours with iPhone. I only expect brokers do it, since it's their effin job. Not a regular seller.

BTW, I bought my airplane without even looking at the logs. Not that it should be a standard procedure for anyone, in fact I recommend against it in general. But sheesh. It's just a little demerit, not a deal breaker.
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Exactly, but, if you hire a broker, you will have to find the logs, the AD,s etc and give them to him to scan. The presence of the broker in the transaction does not reduce the amount of information required to the Buyer.

Up to the Seller to decide if he wants to scan the logs himself and forward a PDF to the Broker, or if he FedExes the logs, and risks losing them, to the Broker that is located 1000 miles away.

Hell, I would go to the local Print Shop and ask them to scan them to me if it was a big effort.
 
Henning said:
Because photographs are not an accurate representation.
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But they are better than somebody saying "it is a creampuff, 8/10, great plane".


Henning said:
Doesn't matter, it's never a shopper's market though because shoppers aren't serious buyers, they are always looking for a better deal. Shoppers want to see everything about every plane that will be on the market for the foreseeable future because they want to make sure that they get the best deal ever. If you're a serious buyer, you'll ask a few questions and go look and see what's actually there. .
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Actually, it does matter if it is a Buyer's Market or a Seller's Market if the Seller is going to ask for 5% deposits before sharing Logbook information. When there are 2000 other Sellers of single engine piston planes out there, why would a Seller want to have the most onerous terms and be the most difficult to deal with?

The "cost" of sharing information via JPG and PDF is incredibly low, and, for the Seller, a one time investment of 41 minutes to take some pictures with a phone and get them ready to email is pretty cheap way to become one of the easier Sellers instead of the most impossible Seller, requiring a 5% deposit before sending additional pictures.
 
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EdFred said:
56 years worth of logs, in 6 different logbooks. Yeah, because the fact they gapped the plugs back in '63 is real relevant. GTFO with this "I want the entire logbooks scanned as a pdf" crap.
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Nobody wants 56 years of logbooks scanned at this time, but there is some period of time that is relevant. In the plane with "no damage history" according to the Broker, but yet there is an NTSB report of "substantial damage" 6 years ago, it would seem reasonable to want to see the airframe book for the last 8 years.

But, if you are going to have to make them available, sooner or later, might as well start scanning now...
 
JoseCuervo said:
In the plane with "no damage history" according to the Broker, but yet there is an NTSB report of "substantial damage" 6 years ago, it would seem reasonable to want to see the airframe book for the last 8 years.
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There's your problem right there. When a simple NTSB check reveals that the broker is misrepresenting the airplane, you don't need scanned copies of the logs to know that you should probably run away.
 
Fearless Tower said:
There's your problem right there. When a simple NTSB check reveals that the broker is misrepresenting the airplane, you don't need scanned copies of the logs to know that you should probably run away.
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That, and logs lie, or better yet, don't lie.

We sent two birds home that were represented as NDH and had no damage noted in the logs. Once the wing inspection panels and belly pans were off, the previous damage was evident.

"Wow, I never knew my plane was damaged!"

Uh huh, take your bird and go home.
 
Fearless Tower said:
There's your problem right there. When a simple NTSB check reveals that the broker is misrepresenting the airplane, you don't need scanned copies of the logs to know that you should probably run away.
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I will give the benefit of the doubt, before I call the Broker a liar. I am going to guess that he didn't have access to the Logs, because the Seller "couldn't be bothered" to scan the books and share the information with the Broker.

So, he didn't know about the damage history.

It just goes to my point, the Seller selling directly, or thru a Broker, he will still have to share information. The more information he shares, the more accurately the Buyer can make an informed decision on the next step.
 
JoseCuervo said:
It just goes to my point, the Seller selling directly, or thru a Broker, he will still have to share information. The more information he shares, the more accurately the Buyer can make an informed decision on the next step.
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Makes no difference whether it is a broker transaction or a fsbo. They can make it convenient for the prospective buyer or difficult. I can understand that a seller wouldn't want to put 50 years of maintenance skeletons on the internet tubes for anyone to parse, but once you have talked/emailed a prospect, it is really not that much work to send them an email: here is a link andv login token to my skydrive with the logs and 40 pics of the plane.
Yes, they are old planes, if the pictures show that little painted over ding next to the fuel port they know that they are not being lied to. Most of these sellers bank on someone investing their time and money to come out so they can work their used car salesman pitch on them in person.

The same sellers who can't be bothered to make the information conveniently accessible to the buyers otoh will complain loudly that nobody is interested in their 50 year old relic.
 
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