NW flight overflies destination

There’s a lesson here somewhere, but after 30 years I still haven’t figured it out.
Click to expand...

It might not be such a bad thing to allow a little valium into some of these cockpits?
 
I'm not positive on this, but I think the 30 minutes is just what is required (actually it's 15 minutes) to be kept, except in the case of an incident. Then the whole recording must be kept.

The new requirement (April 7 2010) will be recorders must actually retain the last 25 hours of data.

FAR's 91-609- if interested
 
If they were, indeed, engaged in a heated discussion, well, there is a time and place for that and it isn't on paid time, in the air, with pax.

If, purely speculating, they decided they needed to do a little CYA, and came up with that interesting story, then they really made a little mistake into a big mistake.

Falling asleep, little mistake. Blame airline scheduling, blame McDonnell-Douglas for crappy air, blame TSA or FAA for not letting stews serve them coffee in the cockpit, but I think they'd come out ok. Not great, but ok.

Falling asleep, and lying about it? Big mistake. Really big mistake.

I am not leaping to conclusions. I'm willing to believe their story. I think it makes them look stupid and irresponsible. If they just fell asleep, then they were just tired. If they lied, then they are far worse than merely tired, stupid, and irresponsible.
 
gprellwitz said:
First, I don't think that there's a button in the cockpit that will erase the recording. Maybe Greg or one of the other "heavy iron" pilots can confirm?
Click to expand...

I don't fly a "heavy", but it's my understanding that the commuter and transport category planes I have flown operate roughly the same way.

The Beech used the old tape style of CVR, so it only stored the last 30 minutes of data. The Q, like most of the CVRs being used today, records digital audio for two hours any time the aircraft electrical system is powered. (The FDR records 25 hours of data, and soon they're talking about making the CVR do the same).

There is an erase button on the CVR, but at least in the case of the digital recorder on the Q, it's inhibited for a half an hour after the aircraft senses weight on wheels. On the Beech there wasn't actually anything that restricted the use of the erase button, but company policy said it was only to be used after testing the system prior to the first flight of the day. I suspect if you tried to erase it (especially after doing something like this) you'd get in even more trouble.
 
Commander Dave said:
I'm not positive on this, but I think the 30 minutes is just what is required (actually it's 15 minutes) to be kept, except in the case of an incident. Then the whole recording must be kept.

The new requirement (April 7 2010) will be recorders must actually retain the last 25 hours of data.

FAR's 91-609- if interested
Click to expand...

Care to be a little more specific? I have read all of that part, including the parts referenced for transport category airplanes, and I don't see that. It may be required for the FLIGHT DATA RECORDERS. but the CVR's??? Not so sure.
 
Ron Levy said:
This wasn't a regional, this was NWA mainline.
Click to expand...

Delta on the taxiway last week was mainline, too.

Now I'm curious to see...how much use is the CVR data going to be? Obviously it will tell us what they were (or weren't) arguing about, but the CVR can't be used for punitive measures. How much trouble can they really get into based on the CVR (beyond what they will for missing radio calls/the airport)?
 
Teller1900 said:
There is an erase button on the CVR, but at least in the case of the digital recorder on the Q, it's inhibited for a half an hour after the aircraft senses weight on wheels. On the Beech there wasn't actually anything that restricted the use of the erase button, but company policy said it was only to be used after testing the system prior to the first flight of the day. I suspect if you tried to erase it (especially after doing something like this) you'd get in even more trouble.
Click to expand...
All the CVRs I've seen have an erase button. I looked up the info on the CE-680 and the bulk erase feature only works if there is weight on wheel, the cabin door is open and the aircraft has not sustained a 5G impact. The 5G impact switch opens the circuit disconnecting power to the CVR so it cannot be erased. Of course that would not have been the case in this situation unless they followed up by making a really crappy landing.

I think that most pilots who fly with a CVR would be aware enough of its existence that they wouldn't try to make up a story knowing that it could be disproved. However, I thought the CVR could only be used in case of an accident or incident not just for disciplinary purposes. Do the airlines have policies about this? Or is this considered an incident?
 
Everskyward said:
All the CVRs I've seen have an erase button. I looked up the info on the CE-680 and the bulk erase feature only works if there is weight on wheel, the cabin door is open and the aircraft has not sustained a 5G impact. The 5G impact switch opens the circuit disconnecting power to the CVR so it cannot be erased. Of course that would not have been the case in this situation unless they followed up by making a really crappy landing.

I think that most pilots who fly with a CVR would be aware enough of its existence that they wouldn't try to make up a story knowing that it could be disproved. However, I thought the CVR could only be used in case of an accident or incident not just for disciplinary purposes. Do the airlines have policies about this? Or is this considered an incident?
Click to expand...

You're correct in that CVR's can only be used in accident or incident investigations.

As far as if this will be considered an "incident" will be up to NWA and the POI.
 
I believe we can trust that the NTSB and/or FAA will regard this as an "incident."
 
Just hand the FAA inspector your logbook and certificates and walk out the door... Incident solved...

denny-o
 
Teller1900 said:
Now I'm curious to see...how much use is the CVR data going to be? Obviously it will tell us what they were (or weren't) arguing about, but the CVR can't be used for punitive measures. How much trouble can they really get into based on the CVR (beyond what they will for missing radio calls/the airport)?
Click to expand...
I'm not sure the CVR can't be used in a criminal proceeding, especially if it impeaches the testimony of the pilots.
 
Ron Levy said:
I'm not sure the CVR can't be used in a criminal proceeding, especially if it impeaches the testimony of the pilots.
Click to expand...
I don't see how this will become a criminal proceeding. I'm still wondering if it will even be considered an incident. Of course the FAA will go after the crew for a pilot deviation but I don't know if will be considered an incident in the sense that they will be able to use the CVR recording.
 
gprellwitz said:
First, I don't think that there's a button in the cockpit that will erase the recording. Maybe Greg or one of the other "heavy iron" pilots can confirm?
Click to expand...

Teller1900 said:
I don't fly a "heavy", but it's my understanding that the commuter and transport category planes I have flown operate roughly the same way.

The Beech used the old tape style of CVR, so it only stored the last 30 minutes of data. The Q, like most of the CVRs being used today, records digital audio for two hours any time the aircraft electrical system is powered. (The FDR records 25 hours of data, and soon they're talking about making the CVR do the same).

There is an erase button on the CVR, but at least in the case of the digital recorder on the Q, it's inhibited for a half an hour after the aircraft senses weight on wheels. On the Beech there wasn't actually anything that restricted the use of the erase button, but company policy said it was only to be used after testing the system prior to the first flight of the day. I suspect if you tried to erase it (especially after doing something like this) you'd get in even more trouble.
Click to expand...

Greg Bockelman said:
Yes, there in fact is.
Click to expand...
Thanks, I stand corrected!
 
Everskyward said:
I don't see how this will become a criminal proceeding.
Click to expand...
It could if the CVR shows the crew lied to the FBI and they were really asleep, not arguing. If you tell the FBI "an icicle fell off the roof and smashed my eyeglasses," unlike Ralphie's mom, they're going to head outside to check what's hanging from the eaves (or not).
 
Last edited:
Everskyward said:
All the CVRs I've seen have an erase button. I looked up the info on the CE-680 and the bulk erase feature only works if there is weight on wheel, the cabin door is open and the aircraft has not sustained a 5G impact. The 5G impact switch opens the circuit disconnecting power to the CVR so it cannot be erased. Of course that would not have been the case in this situation unless they followed up by making a really crappy landing.

I think that most pilots who fly with a CVR would be aware enough of its existence that they wouldn't try to make up a story knowing that it could be disproved. However, I thought the CVR could only be used in case of an accident or incident not just for disciplinary purposes. Do the airlines have policies about this? Or is this considered an incident?
Click to expand...

Depending on how it's erased (and I don't know how they do it in a CVR)- electronic memory I'm familiar with (and CVR memory may be different) essentially uses a file allocation table and sectors to store data. Erasing the memory is pretty much just deleting the FAT; the data is still there but un-linked. It is possible to recover this data if someone cares enough to do so, if my assumptions about the memory format used and erasure procedure is correct.
 
Cap'n Jack said:
Depending on how it's erased (and I don't know how they do it in a CVR)- electronic memory I'm familiar with (and CVR memory may be different) essentially uses a file allocation table and sectors to store data. Erasing the memory is pretty much just deleting the FAT; the data is still there but un-linked. It is possible to recover this data if someone cares enough to do so, if my assumptions about the memory format used and erasure procedure is correct.
Click to expand...

That may be true for the digital CVRs but I am pretty sure the analog CVR's don't work that way.
 
SCCutler said:
I believe we can trust that the NTSB and/or FAA will regard this as an "incident."
Click to expand...

Maybe, maybe not. There have been other "incidents" of overflight that were simply given back to the airline and they handled the discipline of the crew.

Right now most airlines participate in a program of "Self Disclosure" in which there are no FAA violations and the matter is handled on a company level.
 
Greg Bockelman said:
That may be true for the digital CVRs but I am pretty sure the analog CVR's don't work that way.
Click to expand...
I think I mentioned electronic memory...

I seem to remember hearing someplace (Discovery Channel?) that the analog recorders are wire recorders (like WWII technology), rather than tape. Any one know if this is true, or my memory is just wrong?
 
Cap'n Jack said:
I seem to remember hearing someplace (Discovery Channel?) that the analog recorders are wire recorders (like WWII technology), rather than tape. Any one know if this is true, or my memory is just wrong?
Click to expand...

Looks like tape to me.

cvr5.jpg
 
Greg Bockelman said:
Yes you did. But in my mind, while digital is electronic, so is an analog tape. Just differentiating.
Click to expand...
I suppose...I don't think of magentic core memory as electronic either. Eye of the beholder I suppose.

Scott- thanks for the picture. I don't know why I thought it was wire...
 
smigaldi said:
FYI

but the cockpit voice recorder is an older model that contains only the last 30 minutes of conversation. That makes the investigation more difficult since that time would be taken up by the flight back to Minneapolis — the intended destination — and the landing there Wednesday night.
Click to expand...


Awwwww, ain't that a shame. :rolleyes:
 
Amazing how that happened. of course, the lab MAY be able to recover earlier patterns. It's amazing what they can do. .
 
Near as I can tell from the FlightAware "Track Log", and the times listed for when the aircraft first didn't respond to ATC, the plane was located near Cheyenne Wells, CO (about 130 miles east of Colorado Springs), the first time it didn't respond.

This is about 550 nm prior to KMSP. Add another 150 miles to that, and they had about a 700 mile heated discussion.

Judd
 
jspittler said:
Near as I can tell from the FlightAware "Track Log", and the times listed for when the aircraft first didn't respond to ATC, the plane was located near Cheyenne Wells, CO (about 130 miles east of Colorado Springs), the first time it didn't respond.

This is about 550 nm prior to KMSP. Add another 150 miles to that, and they had about a 700 mile heated discussion.
Click to expand...
Aliens... :ihih:
 
Saw video interview at the copilot's front door in Oregon, he said they were NOT arguing, NOR were they asleep. He appeared to be a very seasoned pilot (age 50 or more). With a 30-minute recorder (confirmed), we may only have the crew's word as to what really happened.

Wouldn't it be interesting if it was just their volume on the radios got turned down or they accidentally got off freq?

http://www.foxnews.com/story/0,2933,569378,00.html
 
You must log in or register to reply here.
Back
Top