NW flight overflies destination

This pic just came in of the cockpit (posted on AvSig board)

Best,

Dave
 

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The controller forgot about us today as we were getting vectored for an ILS. As we were passing through the localizer I asked him if he was planning to bring us around another way or what was going on. It was an oops on his part and he was apologetic. I wanted to add that I didn't want to be accused of overflying the destination... but I didn't. :aureola:
 
Everskyward said:
The controller forgot about us today as we were getting vectored for an ILS. As we were passing through the localizer I asked him if he was planning to bring us around another way or what was going on. It was an oops on his part and he was apologetic. I wanted to add that I didn't want to be accused of overflying the destination... but I didn't. :aureola:
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Sounds like DEN approach. I think I've been forgotten more than I've been remembered...

Maybe I should do something to make them remember me?
 
Everskyward said:
The controller forgot about us today as we were getting vectored for an ILS. As we were passing through the localizer I asked him if he was planning to bring us around another way or what was going on. It was an oops on his part and he was apologetic. I wanted to add that I didn't want to be accused of overflying the destination... but I didn't. :aureola:
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Did the FAA perform an emergency revocation of his certificate?
 
No problemo! My humorless humor also <g>. Maybe I'll just make sure he has his schedule for next month already!

Best,

Dave
 
One thing that confuses me more than others: what would have provoked the FA to contact the flight deck to inquire about the flight? The only thing I can think of is time in flight and altitude didn't jive. Any opinions?
 
kevin47881 said:
One thing that confuses me more than others: what would have provoked the FA to contact the flight deck to inquire about the flight? The only thing I can think of is time in flight and altitude didn't jive. Any opinions?
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You got it -- they know when they should be starting down based on the crew brief, and it was like 5 minutes from the briefed gate-in time, and they hadn't left cruise altitude yet. Passengers may also have inquired, and they gotta tell the passengers something other than, "Well, we don't really know..."
 
I agree with Rotor and Wing. It's not hard at all for the FAA to decertify a controller and take them/keep them off the scopes. That's not the same thing as firing them, which, as we've seen, may take a presidential directive.
 
TMetzinger said:
I agree with Rotor and Wing. It's not hard at all for the FAA to decertify a controller and take them/keep them off the scopes. That's not the same thing as firing them, which, as we've seen, may take a presidential directive.
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There's a very big difference between being temporarily decertified for your position, retrained, and returned to duty in a couple of days without loss of pay, versus having your certificate suspended for months or revoked (taking you off work and pay) and having a violation entered into your records at OKC. In a search of the NTSB database, I don't see any cases involving the suspension or revocation of a controller's certificate.
 
Ron Levy said:
There's a very big difference between being temporarily decertified for your position, retrained, and returned to duty in a couple of days without loss of pay, versus having your certificate suspended for months or revoked (taking you off work and pay) and having a violation entered into your records at OKC. In a search of the NTSB database, I don't see any cases involving the suspension or revocation of a controller's certificate.
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In the case of a center controller there'd be no airman certificate to suspend anyway.
 
roncachamp said:
In the case of a center controller there'd be no airman certificate to suspend anyway.
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Also true. All in all, it's not that hard for the FAA to take a pilot out of the sky, but it's not that easy for them to fire a controller unless the controller doesn't show up for work -- lots of grievance procedures to go through before that happens.
 
Ron Levy said:
Also true. All in all, it's not that hard for the FAA to take a pilot out of the sky, but it's not that easy for them to fire a controller unless the controller doesn't show up for work -- lots of grievance procedures to go through before that happens.
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You're making an apples/oranges comparison. The FAA can take a controller off the scopes at least as easily as they can take a pilot out of the sky. It's harder for them to fire a controller but impossible for them to fire a pilot unless that pilot is flying for the FAA.
 
Ron Levy said:
You think controllers are not covered by a collective bargaining agreement?
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Of course, just as I am (ALPA). However just because they have a CBA does not give them a "get out of jail" card from screwing up. It simply gives them representation in the event of an incident, just as in the case of these NW pilots who are also ALPA and working under a CBA.

Just because someone is employed by the FAA does not grant them immunity. A controller can loose his certification and job just as easily as a pilot.
 
roncachamp said:
You're making an apples/oranges comparison. The FAA can take a controller off the scopes at least as easily as they can take a pilot out of the sky. It's harder for them to fire a controller but impossible for them to fire a pilot unless that pilot is flying for the FAA.
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Agreed. Pilots are employed by private companies and are not federal employees. It's up to each individual company how and the pilot's union (if he's under one) to determine employment. The FAA cannot demand someone's firing.
 
Ron Levy said:
Also true. All in all, it's not that hard for the FAA to take a pilot out of the sky, but it's not that easy for them to fire a controller unless the controller doesn't show up for work -- lots of grievance procedures to go through before that happens.
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Controllers can be fired for lots of reasons. You clearly, once again, have no knowledge of what you're talking about here.
 
Release #09.DAL3
October 26, 2009
Delta Pilots’ Union Issues Statement on Northwest Flight 188 Investigation
Atlanta—The Delta Master Executive Council, the Delta branch of the Air Line Pilots Association, International (ALPA), the union that represents the over 12,000 pilots of Delta Air Lines*, today issued a statement concerning the NTSB investigation into Northwest Flight 188.
“As professional airline pilots, our primary concern is and always will be the safety and well-being of our passengers,” said Captain Lee Moak, Delta MEC Chairman. “In any aircraft incident, there is always more to the story than first appears in the press. We do not condone the abandonment of due process that will result from a rush to judgment; instead we implore all interested parties to move with deliberate and unemotional professionalism as the events surrounding this incident are investigated.”
On Wednesday, October 21, 2009, Air Traffic Control (ATC) lost radio contact with Northwest Flight 188, and Flight 188 subsequently overflew its destination before radio contact was reestablished. The aircraft remained visible to ATC radar at all times. Once radio contact was reestablished, the aircraft returned for a safe landing at its destination. At no time were the passengers, crew or aircraft in danger.
Over the past several years, labor, management, the industry and government agencies have partnered, expending significant amounts of time, money and effort, to develop programs such as Aviation Safety Action Programs (ASAP) and Flight Operational Quality Assurance (FOQA) programs designed to improve the safety of our nation’s aviation system. The core tenet of these programs is the ability of pilots to self disclose without fear of retribution in order to help make the U.S. aviation system the safest in the world.
“To date, all crew statements related to this case have been voluntary. We are disappointed that these voluntary statements are being used without regard for the breach of trust and confidence their use will cause,” Captain Moak remarked. “Programs like ASAP and FOQA could be dealt a debilitating blow as pilots question the integrity of these voluntary programs. A rush to judgment by the NTSB will have a direct impact on the future of voluntary safety programs, which are at the very core of the safety structure of the U.S. aviation industry. The continued viability of these programs themselves will be placed at risk. That will, in turn, cause irreparable harm to the safety of our nation’s aviation system.”
“The NTSB is an independent federal agency charged with determining the probable cause of transportation accidents and promoting transportation safety. They are not charged with prematurely releasing self-disclosed information to be sensationalized in the press,” Captain Moak insisted.
“We will work closely with Delta and federal officials to determine any root causes for last weeks sequence of events,” Captain Moak continued, “but in the meantime I strongly encourage all parties not to reach a hasty conclusion. There is a proper venue for this investigation, but we stand firmly behind the crew’s right to due process.”
 
roncachamp said:
You're making an apples/oranges comparison. The FAA can take a controller off the scopes at least as easily as they can take a pilot out of the sky. It's harder for them to fire a controller but impossible for them to fire a pilot unless that pilot is flying for the FAA.
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It's a lot easier for the FAA to take a pilot's ticket (effectively "firing" him) than it is for them to fire a controller.
 
Rotor&Wing said:
Controllers can be fired for lots of reasons. You clearly, once again, have no knowledge of what you're talking about here.
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You are arguing the wrong point. The point was not whether a controller can be fired, but rather a comparison of the ease with which the FAA can suspend/revoke a pilot's certificate compared to the ease with which they can put a controller out of work. While it's possible for a controller to be fired, just how many have been in the last 27 years? And how many pilots have lost their certificates in the same time? Feel free to use a percentage basis rather than total numbers for the comparison, but I think it will prove my point.
 
The transcript of the CVR is now available

political-pictures-nwa-airbus-a-320-passed-destination.jpg


;) ;)
 
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