Doc Holliday
En-Route
Happens every day. So what’s your point?
Nose wheel fairings
- Thread starter brien23
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Happens every day. So what’s your point?
Tom-D
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Tom-D
do you really think any aircraft can be missing parts without proper paper?
Well, if you aren't practicing what you're preaching in this thread, i.e., production certificate airworthiness requirements in maintenance, then what is your point?
Of course not. But what has this got to do with your comments on Production Certificates?? Perhaps you should reread what you've written today before answering.
Tom-D
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Tom-D
Do you remember the subject, "can you remove wheel pants"
Tom-D
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you should remember what I said.Of course not. But what has this got to do with your comments on Production Certificates??.
production certificate must be complete. or do you believe factories can deliver aircraft with parts missing?
Doc Holliday
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Once again, please post here a production certificate and show us the rules of one.
Tom-D
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Tom-D
21.137 read it.
Doc Holliday
En-Route
This has NOTHING to do with the topic here, and certainly nothing to do with what you assert.
And thanks for proving my point, once again.
I do. The question is do you? In that light, again, what does a Production Certificate have to do with removing wheel fairings? Or do you plan to loop this topic through 360 degrees again?
Unfortunately, I do remember what you say. The problem here is that you fail to answer the pertinent question. So if by your words, a production certificate must be complete, how do you know the aircraft's production certificate requirements are still complete when you sign off an annual, e.g., should the aircraft have wheel fairings?
Cap'n Jack
Final Approach
Back on topic...
The C-172 POH lists performance figures with the wheel speed fairings on, and then indicates changes in performance with the speed fairings removed (1)
This suggests to me that removing the speed fairings (wheel pants) is expected by Cessna and legal.
I remember seeing this in the POH for several C-172 models.
(1) https://edwardsfss.com/wordpress/wp-content/uploads/Cessna-172-Pilot-Operating-Handbook.pdf page iii/iv
The C-172 POH lists performance figures with the wheel speed fairings on, and then indicates changes in performance with the speed fairings removed (1)
This suggests to me that removing the speed fairings (wheel pants) is expected by Cessna and legal.
I remember seeing this in the POH for several C-172 models.
(1) https://edwardsfss.com/wordpress/wp-content/uploads/Cessna-172-Pilot-Operating-Handbook.pdf page iii/iv
Doc Holliday
En-Route
And Dan Thomas correctly pointed out the equipment list and how it’s used.
Tom-D
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let us say it a different way. What do think it means when it any aircraft is not fully equipped ?
can you simply leave parts off?
Do you think the factory build is complete when the production certificate has parts missing.
If your wheel pants are off, there must paper for approval.
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Jim
What does flying around without fairings have to do with nose wheel shimmy?
Most people who fly around without wheel pants do so for reasons other than nosewheel shimmy. Wheel pants on slow planes like Cherokees and 172s only buy a couple of knots, but can be a substantial hassle. Mine have a screw you can't get to without jacks (trapped against the ground) if the tire goes flat, for example. They can also fill up with muck on muddy grass strips or with slush in snowy conditions, then freeze up the wheels in flight. They can also be a hassle to repair if they're damaged.
Some nose pants interfere with the towbar attach fittings and FBOs either have trouble hooking up a towbar or else inadvertently cause damage to the nose pant.
So plenty of folks elect to avoid the hassle and fly pants-free.
Cap'n Jack
Final Approach
How about if I leave the tow bar off the plane and go flying? What paperwork do I need for that?
The wheel fairings are also listed
Neither part number has the -R suffix indicating it is required
Images from a C172 equipment list.
Note my post above, where the POH lists performance changes without the fairings.
Tom-D
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Tom-D
wheel fairings when properly maintained will not cause a shimmy. A out of balance one, will that is a balance problem.
Fairings are a portion of the aircraft. The aircraft is not fully equipped until all parts are installed, or properly documented to be missing. such as a STC, Field approval, or ?
Nor does it require any interaction with the FSDO to remove and fly without, as @brien23 alluded to.
Don't know. Never used the term "fully equipped" when describing how an aircraft is configured. So enlighten me, how would you know if an aircraft is "fully equipped" when you sign off an Annual Inspection?
Under 43.13 appendix A, you can remove non-structural panels, cowling and fairings and you can remove your wheel pants as long as you don't have to remove structure. Wheel fairings are not required for flight per the TCDS, so you log the wheel fairings removed, adjust the weight and balance and equipment list for the work performed per 43.9.
At the flight school, there is a W&B for wheel fairings installed and wheel fairings removed. None of this is a major alteration and doesn’t require a field approval or STC. I’m not sure why this is continuing to be brought up. If you call the FSDO and tell them you need approval for removing wheel fairings, they’re going to look at you funny.
Tom-D
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Tom-D
You still have to re install them unless you have authorization to leave them off. They were part of the aircraft when new.
Tom-D
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a pity, you can't show us how you can parts off and still be airworthy.
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Doc Holliday
En-Route
And that authorization is the equipment list, and a maintenance record entry by an A&P along with a W&B change.
End of story.
No, the pity is, that you can never answer a simple question when it is presented to you.
Tom-D
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Tom-D
already did,, a pity you can't understand it.No, the pity is, that you can never answer a simple question when it is presented to you.
show us how you to can leave parts off the aircraft with out authoriziation.
Tom-D
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Tom-D
21.1
(1) Airworthiness approval means a document, issued by the FAA for an aircraft, aircraft engine, propeller, or article, which certifies that the aircraft, aircraft engine, propeller, or article conforms to its approved design and is in a condition for safe operation, unless otherwise specified
(4) Design approval means a type certificate (including amended and supplemental type certificates) or the approved design under a PMA, TSO authorization, letter of TSO design approval, or other approved design;
(7) Production approval means a document issued by the FAA to a person that allows the production of a product or article in accordance with its approved design and approved quality system, and can take the form of a production certificate, a PMA, or a TSO authorization;
now is clear ?
(1) Airworthiness approval means a document, issued by the FAA for an aircraft, aircraft engine, propeller, or article, which certifies that the aircraft, aircraft engine, propeller, or article conforms to its approved design and is in a condition for safe operation, unless otherwise specified
(4) Design approval means a type certificate (including amended and supplemental type certificates) or the approved design under a PMA, TSO authorization, letter of TSO design approval, or other approved design;
(7) Production approval means a document issued by the FAA to a person that allows the production of a product or article in accordance with its approved design and approved quality system, and can take the form of a production certificate, a PMA, or a TSO authorization;
now is clear ?
Cap'n Jack
Final Approach
See post 54. By what you wrote, it seems I can’t leave the tow bar in a hangar while I fly a C-172. It would have to be installed in its stowage area. I don’t think you believe that, do you?
Doc Holliday
En-Route
Wheel fairings on Cessna's for the most part were optional items. You could buy a new one and delete the wheel fairing package.
Where? Did I miss your answers? I might understand if you actually answer a question....
No. But as we circle around the goal post again... What does that post have to do with removing wheel fairings? (P.S. It's another question)
Ha! No worries I understand perfectly. Remember, it was your ongoing diatribe that brought me to PoA in the first place.
brien23
Pattern Altitude
So under wheel fairings it list set of 3 how can you fly with one or less than 3, how about only one wing tip, it has two but why not remove one and fly with that so you can fix it. My point was and still is they all have to be on or all wheel fairings have to be off either is good, one or two of them is half way and is not.
Doc Holliday
En-Route
Go to the equipment list and please show us where it list wing tips, and what category it falls under.
Also, please find in the Cessna SE MM where it restricts removing a single wheel fairing.
Honestly having to explain this to someone who holds an A&P/IA is absolutely mind numbing.
brien23
Pattern Altitude
Lindberg
Final Approach
Why are you so worried about this? Is someone asking you to remove two wheel fairings?
And will you sign off on our putting our nose one back on? One of the club members damaged it with the tug. We fixed it but thought we'd put it back on after we swap the engine later this month but since it's so critical we better get it back on.
I think it falls to the person removing the 1, 2, or 3 wheel fairings whether it is legal or not. That's how Part 43 is set up. In your opinion, it's not legal and I think most would respect your opinion but don't agree with it. Hence the discussion here. But to follow your methodology, could I remove only a interior trim headliner, but not the rest of the trim? That would qualify as half-way also?
bnt83
Final Approach
The flight school I flew at had three 1980s Cessna 172, none of them had the nose wheel pants because the tug they loved was a lot more fool-proof to use with naked nose wheels. This outfit held 135 and 145 certificates and was visited by the FAA regularly, NO ONE cared about the missing nose wheel pants.
Nor would I if the W&B was accurate.
The Cessna 152 I took a medical flight eval in, came factory with wheel pants, none were on the airplane. W&B showed removal. 5 FAA inspectors reviewed the logbooks and personally looked at the airplane before an inspector and I took it. No one cared about the missing pants.
Nor would I if the W&B was accurate.
The Cessna 152 I took a medical flight eval in, came factory with wheel pants, none were on the airplane. W&B showed removal. 5 FAA inspectors reviewed the logbooks and personally looked at the airplane before an inspector and I took it. No one cared about the missing pants.
Dan Thomas
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I think he was referring to the damage done to nosewheel fairings by the shimmy. It rips the mounting areas out. The fairing comes loose, so it's removed.
brien23
Pattern Altitude
Part 43 and 91 trouble with interpreting the way they are written to what you think they are on the small things makes it easy to overlook the larger ones that will kill you. Go ahead and blow off the 1lb. tow bar weight or one wheel fairing missing it sets a pattern to blow off 100lbs and that might be fatal. For those that set themselves up to do whatever on Cessna and Piper aircraft you might try home built as you can do what you want and no one cares.
