No trim allowed?

paflyer

paflyer

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Saw the following youtube.

Comments are interesting. Apparently it has now become commonplace by instructors and examiners to not allow trim to be used in performing steep turns.

New one on me; I was taught (and practice constantly) that trim is my friend. What's with the current, er, technique?

 
I still teach use of trim. Did it last weekend in fact.
 
Trim takes the pressure off, use it as needed, that's what I teach.
 
Then why the comments? In Australia it's not allowed?

It's being viewed as "cheating."

Weird.
 
x4chebE.jpg
 
My attitude when I was taking those checkrides was to do whatever the guy wanted. Get it done. Some didn't make sense, but whatever I had to do to get the rating, thats what I did!

No trim? Then pull or push on the stick.
 
My instructor liked to see me trimmed well enough to fly a steep turn with my hand off the stick, but he did suggest I not take my hand off during the checkride.
 
paflyer said:
Then why the comments? In Australia it's not allowed?

It's being viewed as "cheating."

Weird.
Click to expand...

Australia isn't exactly known for its.... strong aviation scene lol

Besides cheating is good, I mean anything you can do to ensure the successful completion of said maneuver or mission.

Heck using full power or a short field could be considered "cheating" too, as could using a slip, sounds like a very poorly thought out thought process to aviation.
 
Half Fast said:
My instructor liked to see me trimmed well enough to fly a steep turn with my hand off the stick, but he did suggest I not take my hand off during the checkride.
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How can you do a steep turn with your hand off the stick? By definition, in a steep turn, shouldn't you need to have opposite aileron in?
 
Wow....just wow



'Derp' is the same as 'durp'. It means 'stupid action' or 'stupid person'. The expression is thought to come from the late 1990's, where Southpark creators Trey Parker and Matt Stone made a film called 'Basketball', and during a particularly crass scene, the character yells 'derp'!"


image.jpg
 
Wing of Carolina teaches no trim steep turns. The technique is to hold the nose of the aircraft at a certain sight picture relative to the horizon. It takes some practice to learn what the right picture looks like and to be able to go there quickly, but all the pilots in the club can do it, so it absolutely can be done.

The reasoning is that if you have to react quickly in order to make a steep turn, adding trim is another complicating step. Using trim is easier in training, not using it is one less thing to do under stress. If you're a CFI and want to check this, go out flying with your student and give them a rapid command of something like "there's an airplane steep turn to the right NOW" and see how they handle it. Odd are, they'll forget the trim and make a huge altitude excursion.

That's the logic as I've been told.
 
bflynn said:
Wing of Carolina teaches no trim steep turns. The technique is to hold the nose of the aircraft at a certain sight picture relative to the horizon. It takes some practice to learn what the right picture looks like and to be able to go there quickly, but all the pilots in the club can do it, so it absolutely can be done.

The reasoning is that if you have to react quickly in order to make a steep turn, adding trim is another complicating step. Using trim is easier in training, not using it is one less thing to do under stress. If you're a CFI and want to check this, go out flying with your student and give them a rapid command of something like "there's an airplane steep turn to the right NOW" and see how they handle it. Odd are, they'll forget the trim and make a huge altitude excursion.

That's the logic as I've been told.
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That's complete nonsense.

If you need to think about when to trim, you shouldn't have even soloed yet.

Also try that no trim game with something with some major weight.

And as far as easier in training.. Ok, let's tell the student that he needs to do a steep turn, then proceed to beat him with a wrench, I mean if he can do steep turn while being beaten with a wrench in training, he should be fine in real life right lol

How do these people become CFIs? Are all these people just from third world countries or something?
 
Bump up the power 200rpm or so and two turns trim up. Works like a charm.
 
Salty said:
How can you do a steep turn with your hand off the stick? By definition, in a steep turn, shouldn't you need to have opposite aileron in?
Click to expand...


Don’t think so. In the Echo, I roll it to between 40 and 45, get the nose tracking steady across the horizon, then just trim out the back pressure and she’ll sit right there all the way around.

If you watch the video in the original post, you’ll see he’s flying the steep turn hands free.

And I don’t see why it would be an issue if you had to make an unexpected steep turn as bflynn suggests. I initiate the turn and get everything stable first, then trim. Could I hold pressure all the way around? Sure, but why?
 
I was taught not to use trim during steep turn as well. It lasts for 30 seconds anyway. Another CFI teaches trim though

Sent from my SM-G935V using Tapatalk
 
Purely pilot preference.

For me, it seems that rolling from one steep turn directly into another in the other direction would involve a lot of trimming at a time I'd rather be concentrating on control pressures, and nailing the rollout and rolling into the next turn. Especially if it involved leaning forward to crank a manual wheel.

But whatever floats your boat!
 
The Airplane Flying Handbook leaves the question open:

First:

When performing steep turns, pilots will be exposed to higher load factors, the airplane’s inherent overbanking tendency, the loss of vertical component of lift when the wings are steeply banked, the need for substantial pitch control pressures, and the need for additional power to maintain altitude and airspeed during the turn.

But then...

Steep turns can be conducted more easily by the use of elevator trim and power as the maneuver is entered. In many light general aviation airplanes, as the bank angle transitions from medium to steep, increasing elevator up trim and adding a small increase in engine power minimizes control pressure requirements. Pilots must not forget to remove both the trim and power inputs as the maneuver is completed.
 
FastEddieB said:
The Airplane Flying Handbook leaves the question open:

First:

When performing steep turns, pilots will be exposed to higher load factors, the airplane’s inherent overbanking tendency, the loss of vertical component of lift when the wings are steeply banked, the need for substantial pitch control pressures, and the need for additional power to maintain altitude and airspeed during the turn.

But then...

Steep turns can be conducted more easily by the use of elevator trim and power as the maneuver is entered. In many light general aviation airplanes, as the bank angle transitions from medium to steep, increasing elevator up trim and adding a small increase in engine power minimizes control pressure requirements. Pilots must not forget to remove both the trim and power inputs as the maneuver is completed.
Click to expand...

Previous editions of the AFH did not recommend trim. The second quoted paragraph newly appeared in the 2016 edition.
 
FastEddieB said:
Purely pilot preference.

For me, it seems that rolling from one steep turn directly into another in the other direction would involve a lot of trimming at a time I'd rather be concentrating on control pressures, and nailing the rollout and rolling into the next turn. Especially if it involved leaning forward to crank a manual wheel.

But whatever floats your boat!
Click to expand...

Roll into the first steep turn, trim her to stay level (2 swipes on the piece of wheel in a 172 panel), then when rolling into the next steep turn the other way, just apply some Down elevator until steeply banked the other way, it's only a few seconds. Retrimming shouldn't be necessary until rolling out into strajght and level.

And for what it's worth, this is what I did on my PPL checkride.
 
dmspilot said:
Previous editions of the AFH did not recommend trim. The second quoted paragraph newly appeared in the 2016 edition.
Click to expand...

Good to know. I know I was never taught to trim during steep turns, nor did I have my students do so.

I'm imagining trimming with the overhead crank in the Apache I got my Commercial Multiengine in. I vaguely remember both hands on the yoke once some power was added.
 
Might depend on the type of trim control, too. An overhead crank might be distracting. In the Tecnam Echo, trim is electric and actuated by a button on top of the stick. It's trivial to just touch the button until back pressure goes away.

When rolling from one direction to the opposite in steep turns, I just apply forward pressure on the yoke as needed through the transition, then make any minor adjustment needed once established in the second turn. I don't re-trim until I'm back to straight and level.
 
dmspilot said:
Only required for commercial applicants.
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I had to do that in PPL, rolling to the other side without stopping. Where does it say it's for commercial only?

Sent from my SM-G935V using Tapatalk
 
HI.
Depending on the acft., some you have to use trim due to the heavy controls, in a steep turn, 45 and above, if you can hold the pressure makes no sense to trim in the turn, 360, the turn will be over before you have a chance to trim properly.
If you have to use it, very heavy controls, test before and use n number of strokes / pulls, seconds and make sure it can be done quickly, best approximation.
In addition when you come out of a steep turn if you are trimmed you will likely have to correct a lot, which can also cause problems going the other way. When you roll out use trim n number of adjustments / pulls, seconds.. in the opposite direction.
Best Not to trim in steep turns., for acft. like light GA 172s Piper..
 
Kritchlow said:
I never have used trim during steep turns. I find the pressure gives me a better feel for what the airplane is doing.
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^^This is the way I always did it. A 360 deg. steep turn is over quickly. By the time you locate the correct trim setting for a 45 deg or greater bank turn it would be time to roll out and then you would be well out of trim for level flight. IMO it is easier to just use muscle in the turn and then roll out and relax, you should be in level flight.
 
edo2000 said:
^^This is the way I always did it. A 360 deg. steep turn is over quickly. By the time you locate the correct trim setting for a 45 deg or greater bank turn it would be time to roll out and then you would be well out of trim for level flight. IMO it is easier to just use muscle in the turn and then roll out and relax, you should be in level flight.
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Yup. That was the other half of what I meant to post.
By the time you are done fiddling with the trim (and going up and down while you figure it out), you are almost done your turn. Especially in most pro environments it’s only a 180° turn.
 
For my checkride, it was two 360 degree turns, one left and one right, done back-to-back. In the Tecnam, it only takes a few seconds to trim, and I do it with the thumb on the hand holding the stick. Quite simple, just hold the trim button down as the back pressure fades away.
 
bflynn said:
Wing of Carolina teaches no trim steep turns. The technique is to hold the nose of the aircraft at a certain sight picture relative to the horizon. It takes some practice to learn what the right picture looks like and to be able to go there quickly, but all the pilots in the club can do it, so it absolutely can be done.

The reasoning is that if you have to react quickly in order to make a steep turn, adding trim is another complicating step. Using trim is easier in training, not using it is one less thing to do under stress. If you're a CFI and want to check this, go out flying with your student and give them a rapid command of something like "there's an airplane steep turn to the right NOW" and see how they handle it. Odd are, they'll forget the trim and make a huge altitude excursion.

That's the logic as I've been told.
Click to expand...
The couple of times I've made an evasive steep turn, changing altitude also helped. Other times I've banked steeply in real life I've been slow enough that a level turn would probably result in a stall, so there was other energy management maneuvering involved as well.

I figure steep turns are a performance and control exercise, and being proficient in trimming the airplane quickly and reasonably accurately demonstrates control.

On the other hand, I did have one guy that I recommended not trim during steep turns for his type ride...he misunderstood trim enough that he was actually trimming the wrong way and getting himself more unstable.
 
I've done both, and both work.
Practiced a lot with using trim on steep turns, but ultimately I liked not using it better, and did so on my checkride.
I've hit my own wake more times without using trim.
 
Skyrys62 said:
I've done both, and both work.
Practiced a lot with using trim on steep turns, but ultimately I liked not using it better, and did so on my checkride.
I've hit my own wake more times without using trim.
Click to expand...
As have I.... which is odd seeing as though wake descends at 500 fpm.
 
Didn’t use trim in either the C150 or the Pa28-140. I think the rationale is you’re supposed to be able to hold the attitude kind of intuitively, understanding the energy of the airplane. I didn’t use it because the aircraft were so light I forgot. I can’t do it without trim in the Mooney, the stick forces are unmanageable.
 
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