No trim allowed?

dmspilot said:
The ACS.
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It says coordinated 360 degree turn at bank angle of 45 degrees and perform the task on the opposite direction as specified by evaluator.

It doesn't say it can be 2 different maneuvers, so guess it's up to DPE to decide whether he will allow to stop, catch a breadth or two and then do the opposite direction turn. In any case, trimming for 30 seconds doesn't make a whole lot of sense

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WannFly said:
It says coordinated 360 degree turn at bank angle of 45 degrees and perform the task on the opposite direction as specified by evaluator.

It doesn't say it can be 2 different maneuvers, so guess it's up to DPE to decide whether he will allow to stop, catch a breadth or two and then do the opposite direction turn. In any case, trimming for 30 seconds doesn't make a whole lot of sense
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It says "Perform the Task in the opposite direction." Meaning you do the task again. So that would make it two maneuvers.

The commercial specifically requires you to roll out and then immediately roll into a turn in the opposite direction.

Correction: The wording in the commercial ACS has changed. It is now the same as the private. I guess commercial applicants no longer have to "immediately" roll from one turn to the other either. :confused:
 
Half Fast said:
Don’t think so. In the Echo, I roll it to between 40 and 45, get the nose tracking steady across the horizon, then just trim out the back pressure and she’ll sit right there all the way around.

If you watch the video in the original post, you’ll see he’s flying the steep turn hands free.

And I don’t see why it would be an issue if you had to make an unexpected steep turn as bflynn suggests. I initiate the turn and get everything stable first, then trim. Could I hold pressure all the way around? Sure, but why?
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I was taught that the definition of a steep turn is a bank angle that requires opposite aileron to prevent it from banking steeper, anything less isn't a steep turn.
 
From the PP ACS:

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As long as you meet the altitude standard for steep turns, I don't see why the examiner should care. Pilots have different techniques, if it works for you, then use it, or not.
 
Salty said:
I was taught that the definition of a steep turn is a bank angle that requires opposite aileron to prevent it from banking steeper, anything less isn't a steep turn.
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That sounds like a very nebulous definition. What does that translate to?
 
dmspilot said:
It is one of the definitions in the Airplane Flying Handbook.
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I guess I’ve missed that. It doesn’t make immediate sense in my mind, does the handbook provide a good explanation?
 
Cooter said:
I guess I’ve missed that. It doesn’t make immediate sense in my mind, does the handbook provide a good explanation?
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It has an explanation. Whether it is good or not is subjective, I suppose.
 
Cooter said:
That sounds like a very nebulous definition. What does that translate to?
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I recall and have used that definition as well.

To expand...

A shallow turn is one where the inherent roll stability of the plane requires aileron held throughout the maneuver.

A steep turn is one where overbanking tendency appears, and opposite aileron is required.

And in between is a medium turn, where the tendencies cancel out and no aileron is required once turn is established.

In most GA aircraft, that occurs at roughly a standard rate turn, about 20° to 30° bank at normal speeds.
 
Salty, if you look under the “skills” section you’ll see it calls out a bank of approximately 45 degrees, and that won’t require opposite aileron in the Tecnam I’m flying.
 
Half Fast said:
Salty, if you look under the “skills” section you’ll see it calls out a bank of approximately 45 degrees, and that won’t require opposite aileron in the Tecnam I’m flying.
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Interesting. Not sure how you can “demonstrate the understanding of overbanking tendencies” that way then. ;) Good thing it doesn’t have to make any sense. :D
 
Stall speed increases with bank angle. Anyone remember the formula for how much???
At 60 degrees of bank the stall speed increases 40%.
The required stick back pressure increase in a turn provides a valuable cue to the pilot that he or she might pay closer attention to their airspeed. This is one of the reasons I (and some others who fly Lancair) typically do not use elevator trim in the landing.
 
Salty said:
Interesting. Not sure how you can “demonstrate the understanding of overbanking tendencies” that way then. ;) Good thing it doesn’t have to make any sense. :D
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Besides, Sport Pilot (my certification) uses PTS, not ACS. The SP PTS just requires 45 plus or minus 5 degrees, no mention of opposite aileron. At least the PTS is objective, clearly stating limits on bank angle, unlike the arbitrary “approximately” of the ACS.

Don’t try to make sense of the FAA. Especially the ACS committee.
 
As a few others have mentioned, it's gonna depend on the aircraft controls more than anything.

The Tecnam I trained in is super easy to trim, for two reasons: First, the trimmer is on top of the stick in a position that makes it a natural motion. Second, the stick is extremely responsive, most maneuvers, including steep turns, are accomplished with pressure, rather than moving the stick. These combine to make it perfectly natural to simply trim out pressure as the maneuver is executed.

My Mooney, on the other hand, is 100% manual, with the wheel on the floor. The trim wheel is extremely sensitive once the flaps are retracted, and re-trimming always involves an annoying amount of hunting for the sweet spot.

If I trimmed a steep turn, I'd be done with the maneuver, and i'd've ended up way off my airspeed because I don't have a third have to operate the throttle with while I trim and fly.

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Hank S said:
Roll into the first steep turn, trim her to stay level (2 swipes on the piece of wheel in a 172 panel), then when rolling into the next steep turn the other way, just apply some Down elevator until steeply banked the other way, it's only a few seconds. Retrimming shouldn't be necessary until rolling out into strajght and level.

And for what it's worth, this is what I did on my PPL checkride.
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This is how I teach it. One does have to anticipate the pitch as you begin to roll out of the first steep turn, so down elevator to maintain altitude for a second or two while rolling into a steep turn in the opposite direction. Of course one can perform the maneuver without the use of trim. DPEs will be satisfied as long as you're within the tolerances for the maneuver. Either method fine.
 
In a 150/152, I never bothered. A 172 has such heavy controls, that trim just made it a much more pleasant experience. I wonder what doing steep turns in a DC-3 would be like.

In my little Sonerai, the trim is great for bombing along straight and level for long periods, it'll fly hands off long enough for me to change freqs or mess with the EFB. But, stick forces are so light, its actually easier to fly anything other than straight and level without touching the trim.
 
In the old Dallas Simcom/PrestoSim/American Airlines, Citation II sim you could just about roll it into a 45 degree bank, roll the manual trim up 3 notches and not touch the controls. If I remember right the CAE Dallas sim needs about 3 and 1/2 notches, guess I will find out in May.
 
labbadabba said:
The AFH recommends using trim and a touch of power, so...
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Yep.

I quoted that recommendation upthread.

But somewhat contradictorily it also says:

When performing steep turns, pilots will be exposed to higher load factors, the airplane’s inherent overbanking tendency, the loss of vertical component of lift when the wings are steeply banked, the need for substantial pitch control pressures, and the need for additional power to maintain altitude and airspeed during the turn.
(bolded mine)

So, even if an instructor feels that the AFH is right and trim makes it easier, I will still hold that at least the first few be performed sans trim, so the student can feel the pressures involved. Only then introduce trimming as an option.

But, again, whatever works. For me, futzing with the trim makes it harder, not easier. But that’s just one pilots opinion.
 
FastEddieB said:
For me, futzing with the trim makes it harder, not easier. But that’s just one pilots opinion.
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Eddie, I don't recall. Is the trim control on the Arrow electric, and is it on the stick? On the Tecnams, trim is two buttons on top of the stick, making it extremely simple to trim out the pressure.
 
Yep. Electric on the stick.

But I learned in Cessnas, and the Law of Primacy is strong.

As I think I said, I did my Commercial muliengine in an Apache. 60° banks required both hands, and reaching up to crank a ceiling mounted trim crank would have been very distracting. For me.

But this is solely a matter of technique - there’s no right or wrong.
 
FastEddieB said:
So, even if an instructor feels that the AFH is right and trim makes it easier, I will still hold that at least the first few be performed sans trim, so the student can feel the pressures involved. Only then introduce trimming as an option.

But, again, whatever works. For me, futzing with the trim makes it harder, not easier. But that’s just one pilots opinion.
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I can agree with this. A primary student a couple of hours in usually won't have a really good grasp of trim. That said, when doing a steep turn in a plane in which I'm familiar (C172, C182), I know that I'll need two good rolls of the trim wheel as I'm rolling into the turn. So as I'm setting up for a steep turn, it's a goose of power, two swipes at the wheel and go.
 
Here's a thought - it doesn't make an effing diffrence. . .unless you're autopsy eligible, you'll notice the over banking tendency; if you want to combine weight training with air work, then don't trim. Else do. A DPE/CFI/instructing outfit making a case for not trimming is having a hard time seperating the trivial from the essential. . .
 
Yeah, but he can fail you. So it matters. Be able to do it both ways.
 
I always preferred manual trim, I'll take the caravan trim wheel over the PC12 China hat.
 
Sundancer said:
A DPE/CFI/instructing outfit making a case for not trimming is having a hard time seperating the trivial from the essential. . .
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Bear in mind instructors are often teaching student pilots steep turns for the very first time. It is reasonable for them to teach it in a manner that works for them, or has worked for their students, or sticks to the AFH. Ideally all three.
 
Perhaps, could be . . .My intuition is it'd make not a groats worth of diffrence in the final outcome, if a CFI just let a student see how it felt, trimmed and not trimmed. Then spent time on substantive learning. The AFH as a guide is like learning to dance by watching other people fold laundry.
 
paflyer said:
Saw the following youtube.

Comments are interesting. Apparently it has now become commonplace by instructors and examiners to not allow trim to be used in performing steep turns.

New one on me; I was taught (and practice constantly) that trim is my friend. What's with the current, er, technique?

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If your plane has trim, you should use it. Any decent CFI should teach it that way, and any examiner that "won't allow it," needs to be removed. The examiner's function is to evaluate your performance, not to tell you what you can and can't use. If in the plane and it's operable, you can use it.
 
My instructor said I could do it either way, he liked not using trim so that was the way I learned.
 
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